Hyrum And Joseph's Last Words

[USU78]

In prisâ??n I saw him next, condemned

To meet a traitorâ??s doom at morn.

The tide of lying tongues I stemmed,

And honored him â??mid shame and scorn.

My friendshipâ??s utmost zeal to try,

He asked if I for him would die.

The flesh was weak; my blood ran chill,

But my free spirit cried, â??I will!â?

That was one of the last thing's JSJr heard . . . and he had John Taylor sing the whole thing through twice.

I don't think there's much question what JSJr intended by what he said last.

USU "Shrinks from that there cup daily . . . not like the hero he would be" 78

[jerryp48]

Thanks for all the great replies.

As for those who believe Joseph was addressing God it would seem that Glen M. Leonard, Richard L. Bushman, as well as other LDS authors disagree.

As for me I choose to believe it was addressed to God but I have no problem if it was a plea for help.

[Mormon Vader]

Deborah, calmoriah, and LifonaDog,

If I have posted one of the dumbest posts on this board, then praise Allah! That means I am unique...just like everybody else!

My post was more of a joke (I was really just trying to figure out a way to use one of my favorite phrases "pony up"; in time you will come to recognize my stupid jokes.

[MorningStar]

"Oh Lord My God" is the first line in the hymn "How Great Thou Art". Is that a masonic hymn?

[ErikJohnson]

Erik,

Have you ever thought/said, in time of emergency or great stress, "Come on car, don't die on me!", "Come on, answer the phone!", "Come on, rope, don't break!", or anything like that? Never?? Well, good job, can't call you a hypocrite, then.

My hypocrisy notwithstanding, I don't get your post. In my previous post, I suggested why it would matter if Joseph Smith's last words were a Masonic distress call. If you disagree and think it would not matter--please explain why it wouldn't.

--Erik

[ErikJohnson]

I wonder if he's ever said "Oh, CRAP!"

A prayer?

Not sure I'm following you and grego, LifeOnaPlate. Do you mean to suggest that Joseph Smith's last words were the equivalent of "Oh crap"?

Looks like the competition for "dumbest thing" ever seen on the board is heating up...

--Erik

[kamenraider]

I'm a Mason. I've never seen the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress described accurately in print. It would seem quite familiar to anyone who had been through the LDS temple prior to 1990. Joseph Smith was in imminent mortal danger, so that would be an appropriate time to give it. He may have given the words along with the sign due to gunsmoke possibly obscuring the mob's view of him. I think he would've been aware of stories of other Masons being saved by giving the sign during the Revolutionary War, even by enemy soldiers who were Masons, etc. He must've thought it worth a shot to try to save himself and/or his friends there, even if he had forebodings to the contrary. I think the other Masons disregarded it because they believed he had violated his Masonic obligations by irregularly initiating too many fellow Mormons into the Craft, violating the chastity (as they saw it) of other Master Mason's wives, daughters, etc.

One time when I was a teenager, I went to a fireside where a speaker named Ted Gibbons played the part of Willard Richards recounting the events leading up to the martyrdom (i.e. how someone went to get him "medicine", etc.). After it was over, I asked him what the Masonic sign was that he said Joseph gave, and he put his hand on the side of his head with his thumb under his ear, which I recognized as a Danite sign rather than the sign that Joseph gave. I think he lied about it because the Masonic sign was too similar to something in the endowment, and he didn't want to get into that with other endowed people who would notice. I think he realized I knew he lied about it because I laughed and said "Okay, whatever".

[LDSBruin]

My hypocrisy notwithstanding, I don't get your post. In my previous post, I suggested why it would matter if Joseph Smith's last words were a Masonic distress call. If you disagree and think it would not matter--please explain why it wouldn't.

--Erik

Why would it matter? He was about to die and shouted anything he could think of to keep from getting shot. Sounds like normal human instinct to me. If he wasn't praying to God and was actually saying the Masonic phrase (matters not to me), then he was asking for help. How is that idol worship??? I think it shows quick thinking because it had a small chance of working.

[Thinking]

Joseph was killed and as he fell from the window he gave what's called the Grand Hailing Sign of Distress and its name, which is "Oh Lord, my God, is there no help for the widow's son?"

I went to lds.org, and did a search. Every article which quoted Joseph's last words deleted "is there no help for the widow's son?" There was no indication that any words were missing.

If this is what Joseph really said after he was shot, shouldn't these quotes use an ellipse? (i.e. "Oh Lord, My God...")

[Calm]

I went to lds.org, and did a search. Every article which quoted Joseph's last words deleted "is there no help for the widow's son?" There was no indication that any words were missing.

If this is what Joseph really said after he was shot, shouldn't these quotes use an ellipse? (i.e. "Oh Lord, My God...")

I am not sure if you mean he said the whole thing or not. I thought that the article just gave the title and the call as opposed to the truncated version JS had time to say. If he just said the first four words, I think they are correct in their usage as adding ellipses is pretty much guessing if he meant to complete it or not, but I may be wrong.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Not sure I'm following you and grego, LifeOnaPlate. Do you mean to suggest that Joseph Smith's last words were the equivalent of "Oh crap"?

Looks like the competition for "dumbest thing" ever seen on the board is heating up...

--Erik

Erik: I was pointing out the inherently silly position you advanced. Whether his last words were equivalent or not is up in the air. Unless, of course, you know something we don't. Keep on guessing, though. Fawn Brodie would be so proud.

Thinking: according to all accounts, all Joseph said was "Oh Lord, My God!" That's it.

[Baurak Ale]

I went to lds.org, and did a search. Every article which quoted Joseph's last words deleted "is there no help for the widow's son?" There was no indication that any words were missing.

If this is what Joseph really said after he was shot, shouldn't these quotes use an ellipse? (i.e. "Oh Lord, My God...")

It is interesting I have always thought that the last living words of Prophet Joseph Smith were taken from the Master Mason's 3rd Degree of Blue Lodge ritual. However I would suggest the reason you will not find the completed distress call in the data base is because its secret. Joseph Smith restored the true grand hailing sign and distress call, of which lds keep secret, I would also suggest it's predecessor should also be kept veiled. I really think its the responsibility of endowed members to keep masonic things secret as well as temple things, the common elements are so similiar we are beholden not to speak about either the former or latter.

As Eliza R. Snow wife of Joseph Smith said quote, "Mormonism is Masonic." & Joseph Smith said quote, "The Secret of Freemasonry is to keep a secret".

[kamenraider]

I went to lds.org, and did a search. Every article which quoted Joseph's last words deleted "is there no help for the widow's son?" There was no indication that any words were missing.

If this is what Joseph really said after he was shot, shouldn't these quotes use an ellipse? (i.e. "Oh Lord, My God...")

I think probably Joseph was shot and fell before he could get all the words out. Also, I think some people (especially LDS members) would rather portray Joseph as calling to God in his last moments, which they must think seems more "prophetlike" than calling for help via a Masonic sign. There also may very well have been an avoidance of revealing Masonic secrets when Joseph was quoted by other Masons, as Baurak suggested above, as well. In the 19th century people weren't careful to use ellipses when editing quotes and would probably be even less willing to if not wanting to call attention to the fact that they had altered what someone said.

[John Williams]

I think probably Joseph was shot and fell before he could get all the words out. Also, I think some people (especially LDS members) would rather portray Joseph as calling to God in his last moments, which they must think seems more "prophetlike" than calling for help via a Masonic sign. There also may very well have been an avoidance of revealing Masonic secrets when Joseph was quoted by other Masons, as Baurak suggested above, as well. In the 19th century people weren't careful to use ellipses when editing quotes and would probably be even less willing to if not wanting to call attention to the fact that they had altered what someone said.

Why is this such a big deal? Prophet or not, if you're getting shot at, you're probably going to call for help. Was he just supposed to stand there, arms spread wide, and say, "Here I am. Go ahead and shoot"?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Why is this such a big deal? Prophet or not, if you're getting shot at, you're probably going to call for help. Was he just supposed to stand there, arms spread wide, and say, "Here I am. Go ahead and shoot"?

It wouldn't have been the first time:

"When we arrived at Dixon, I sent for a lawyer, who came, and Reynolds shut the door in his face, and would not let me speak to him, repeating 'G** d*** you, I'll shoot you.' I turned to him, opened my bosom, and told him to 'shoot away; I have endured so much persecution and oppression that I am sick of life; why then don't you shoot, and have done with it, instead of talking so much about it?' This somewhat checked his insolence." - (Address by President Joseph Smith, Delivered on the evening of his arrival from Dixon, June 30, 1843, in the Grove, near the Temple, Nauvoo)

[kamenraider]

Why is this such a big deal? Prophet or not, if you're getting shot at, you're probably going to call for help. Was he just supposed to stand there, arms spread wide, and say, "Here I am. Go ahead and shoot"?

Yeah -- if he were completely resigned to his fate, he wouldn't have defended himself with a pistol.

[jason e.]

Hyrum's last words were, "I am a dead man."

Joseph's last words were "Oh Lord, my God."

Why wouldn't a man who had been the Lord's prophet for most of his life call out to Him in his final moments?

and josephs last gesture was a masonic stress call.

[selek]

and josephs last gesture was a masonic stress call.

It's been alleged several times (the point of this thread), but not even remotely proven.

There's far too much mind reading, innuendo, and Wild Donkey guessing involved.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Wow, Jason, do you have an photographic evidence of this? Or any evidence? Whenever someone rasies their hands are they automatically giving the masonic distress signal? Before I even ask for your reference on this, I'd also like to ask: even if Joseph said the masonic words, or did a signal, what does it prove? Joseph already knew his time was up.

[kamenraider]

Leaving religion out of the case, where is the lover of his country, and his posterity, that does not condemn such an outrageous murder, and will not lend all his powers, energies and influence to bring the offenders to justice and judgment?

Every good man will do it when he remembers that these two innocent men were confined in jail for a supposed crime, deprived of any weapons to defend themselves, had the pledged faith of the state of Illinois, by Governor Ford, for their protection, and were then shot to death, while with uplifted hands they gave such signs of distress as would have commanded the interposition and benevolence of savages or pagans. They were both Masons in good standing.

Ye brethren of 'the mystic tie', what think ye! Where are our good Masters Joseph and Hyrum? Is there a pagan, heathen or savage nation on the globe that would not be moved on this great occasion, as the trees of the forest are moved by a mighty wind? Joseph's last exclamation was, 'O Lord my God'.

--History of the Church, Vol.7, Ch.15, p.188

[Deborah]

Yeah -- if he were completely resigned to his fate, he wouldn't have defended himself with a pistol.

This is so childish. No matter how resigned someone is to their fate, the most basic survival instinct kicks in. Grow up.

[kamenraider]

This is so childish. No matter how resigned someone is to their fate, the most basic survival instinct kicks in. Grow up.

That's exactly my point. Maybe you misunderstood me. Others here have thought that since Joseph knew (or at least felt) he was going to be martyred, he wouldn't have tried to save himself and/or the others there. Like you, I disagree.

[Calm]

This is so childish. No matter how resigned someone is to their fate, the most basic survival instinct kicks in. Grow up.

And, and I think this is significant, there were others with him. Even if he was resigned about his own fate, does this mean he would give up doing everything in his power to possibly save them (and since two out of the four survived, it seems to me he did quite well)?

From what I understand the result of his using a pistol was that the door to the cell was able to be shut again and it was not opened again due to Joseph's going to the window and being struck there as the men rushed back outside when they heard he had fallen. Whether intentional or not, Joseph's actions drew attention away from those remaining alive in the cell and thus they were able to survive what must have been a very trigger happy mob.

[Deborah]

That's exactly my point. Maybe you misunderstood me. Others here have thought that since Joseph knew (or at least felt) he was going to be martyred, he wouldn't have tried to save himself and/or the others there. Like you, I disagree.

Thank you for clarifying; sorry for attributing such a sentiment to you. I don't understand why over 150 years later people are trying to second guess not only intentions but what actually happened. Any accounts have to be by those who were under the stress of the moment anyway.

[Baurak Ale]

Quote "Brother Joseph Says Masonry was taken from the priesthood but has become degenerated but many things are perfect."

HEBER C. KIMBALL TO PARLEY P. PRATT, 17 JUNE 1842, LDS ARCHIVES

We have the true Masonry. The Masonry of today is received from apostasy which took place in the days of Solomon and David. They have now and then a thing that is correct, but we have the real thing.

-HEBER C. KIMBALL, Manuscript History of Brigham Young, unpublished, November 13, 1858, LDS Church Archives. Quoted in Stanley B. Kimball's Heber C. Kimball: Mormon Patriarch & Pioneer.

In the spirit of speculation its conceivable that the Masonic Distress Call, Grand Hailing Sign, was infact correct and perfect in the gospel sense, hence the reason it was issued by Joseph Smith in his final moments on earth. Perhaps the distress call is correct but it's belongs to the Old Covenant Temple rights pre-messianic era.