Olmec-influenced City Found In Mexico

[juliann]

At first I thought, great, Juliann is adding something valuable to the discussion: an article to read. And then you have to include a swipe against the motives of us "countermos." Believe it or not, some of us actually are interested in understanding. Leave the broad brush at home, or at least qualify your statements.

With all due respect, have you added anything besides back seat commentary and cheerleading? That could look a tad hypocritical.

Interesting article, but it makes no mention of smelting or pyrotechnology, which are the topics at hand, really.

The topic at hand is Beastie's assertion that Isrealite settlements support her pet theory because she only knows one author. Quite the opposite. She can do a puppet show with Brant quotes all she wants...he isn't here and I'm sticking with the topic she introduced. She keeps doing that and then taking off in a panic. I think we need to know more about OT findings since she has taken a position that it can be used to explain Mesoamerica.

[beastie]

The topic at hand is Beastie's assertion that Isrealite settlements support her pet theory because she only knows one author. Quite the opposite. She can do a puppet show with Brant quotes all she wants...he isn't here and I'm sticking with the topic she introduced. She keeps doing that and then taking off in a panic. I think we need to know more about OT findings since she has taken a position that it can be used to explain Mesoamerica.

No doubt you put me in a panic - particularly your stunning demonstration of how I "put the chicken before the egg".

My use of Dever is quite clear in this thread. You can continue to try to divert it as much as you want. You seem to be "taking off in a panic" from the BoM verses I cited, for example, that clearly explain what Nephi taught his people.

[Not quite me]

With all due respect, have you added anything besides back seat commentary and cheerleading? That could look a tad hypocritical.

If I've merely added commentary, at least I haven't attacked anyone. And it's ironic that you respond to my call for a little civility with yet another swipe at me.

The topic at hand is Beastie's assertion that Isrealite settlements support her pet theory because she only knows one author. Quite the opposite. She can do a puppet show with Brant quotes all she wants...he isn't here and I'm sticking with the topic she introduced. She keeps doing that and then taking off in a panic. I think we need to know more about OT findings since she has taken a position that it can be used to explain Mesoamerica.

I thought the citation of Dever was merely to make the point that migrating peoples generally don't abandon their technologies when they move into a populated area, which was beastie's point. I'll admit to not knowing much of your history with beastie, but I'll comment when I think someone is right (and I think beastie is here) and certainly when people don't respond to the central question (which is what you seem to be doing). If that makes me a cheerleader not worthy of participating, so be it.

Edit: OK, I reread the whole thread, and I have made my share of substantive remarks, asking questions, for example, that no one ever bothered to answer. True, I did point out that I thought you had misunderstood the point of beastie's posts, and then when I came back after a few days of illness, I was convinced that you had.

Apparently, my nonsubstantive cheerleading has to do with agreeing with beastie and finding your personal insults not helpful.

[USU78]

I thought the citation of Dever was merely to make the point that migrating peoples generally don't abandon their technologies when they move into a populated area, which was beastie's point.

I for one understood beastie's point, but don't quite agree with it. It's quite a different situation in the Fertile Crescent and Mesoamerica. There's no reason to believe that what holds true for folks moving among/between Iraq, Syria, the Levant, and Egypt should hold true for a group moving from desert across water to a jungle. Technologies don't necessarily work in such strikingly different environments.

NQM, there's a long history of beastie (in her various iterations) not working and playing well with others (her present "butter wouldn't melt" avatar notwithstanding). Juliann remembers all of this quite well, and her posts are colored by that history.

[Not quite me]

I for one understood beastie's point, but don't quite agree with it. It's quite a different situation in the Fertile Crescent and Mesoamerica. There's no reason to believe that what holds true for folks moving among/between Iraq, Syria, the Levant, and Egypt should hold true for a group moving from desert across water to a jungle. Technologies don't necessarily work in such strikingly different environments.

That's what we should be talking about, not about who is sincere or mean or whatever.

NQM, there's a long history of beastie (in her various iterations) not working and playing well with others (her present "butter wouldn't melt" avatar notwithstanding). Juliann remembers all of this quite well, and her posts are colored by that history.

I understand that. I just don't understand why all that rancor has to spill over onto someone who's just sitting here watching and cheerleading.

The nagging is off-topic and the board nanny posts need to stop. If somebody has crossed a line then send in a report.

[Zakuska]

Some threads remind me of this...

http://www.pixar.com/shorts/ftb/index.html

Get back on topic. ~ Mods

[beastie]

I for one understood beastie's point, but don't quite agree with it. It's quite a different situation in the Fertile Crescent and Mesoamerica. There's no reason to believe that what holds true for folks moving among/between Iraq, Syria, the Levant, and Egypt should hold true for a group moving from desert across water to a jungle. Technologies don't necessarily work in such strikingly different environments.

Then what did Nephi teach his people?

NQM, there's a long history of beastie (in her various iterations) not working and playing well with others (her present "butter wouldn't melt" avatar notwithstanding). Juliann remembers all of this quite well, and her posts are colored by that history.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I have never had a problem in getting along with others on any board but this one - and it's primarily Juliann and her groupies who have a problem with me. And my banning, frankly, was a ridiculous act without justification.

Perhaps you ought to test your objectivity by going through this thread and making a tally of who was consistently making snide and dismissive comments, and who was not. What you see here represents my posting style since I've been posting on boards.

However, if I have time later tonight I'll hunt down the very first thread on ZLMB that I ever participated on, so you can see for yourself how Juliann immediately began treating me. The history of "not getting along well with others" is certainly present, but you have mis-attributed it.

Get back on topic. ~ Mods

[charity]

Perhaps you ought to test your objectivity by going through this thread and making a tally of who was consistently making snide and dismissive comments, and who was not. What you see here represents my posting style since I've been posting on boards.

However, if I have time later tonight I'll hunt down the very first thread on ZLMB that I ever participated on, so you can see for yourself how Juliann immediately began treating me. The history of "not getting along well with others" is certainly present, but you have mis-attributed it.

Oh, for Pete's sake! What is this topic about? An Olmec influenced city found in Mexico or beastie's hurt feelings!

beastie, you asked what Nephi taught his people. The answer is such a simple one. 2 Ne. 5: 15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

And just what is your problem with this?

A one or two sentence answer would be nice.

[beastie]

beastie, you asked what Nephi taught his people. The answer is such a simple one. 2 Ne. 5: 15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

And just what is your problem with this?

A one or two sentence answer would be nice.

I thought I had already made this clear.

The problem is that there is no evidence in Mesoamerica in general, or in Kaminaljuyu in particular (Sorenson's suggestion for the City of Nephi, which Brant also condones) of any Old World skill being transported to Mesoamerica.

All the skills and arts found in Mesoamerica were native to Mesoamerica.

For example, housing. There was a specific pattern to housing in Israel in 600 BC. There is an entirely different pattern to housing in Mesoamerica. They were not built in the same way.

There is no evidence of metallurgy in Mesoamerica, and many of the metals listed require metallurgy.

Did you really not understand I had addressed this or did you just not accept my answer? I'm confounded by how anyone could be reading this thread and not know what I think the problem is. I think I've said it umpteen times.

[charity]

I thought I had already made this clear.

The problem is that there is no evidence in Mesoamerica in general, or in Kaminaljuyu in particular (Sorenson's suggestion for the City of Nephi, which Brant also condones) of any Old World skill being transported to Mesoamerica.

All the skills and arts found in Mesoamerica were native to Mesoamerica.

For example, housing. There was a specific pattern to housing in Israel in 600 BC. There is an entirely different pattern to housing in Mesoamerica. They were not built in the same way.

There is no evidence of metallurgy in Mesoamerica, and many of the metals listed require metallurgy.

Did you really not understand I had addressed this or did you just not accept my answer? I'm confounded by how anyone could be reading this thread and not know what I think the problem is. I think I've said it umpteen times.

Actually you keep saying that patterns of Israelite immigration in the Old World setting were done in one way and you can't see that same exact pattern exhibited in the New World. Which you interpret to mean there were no Lehites. But, inexplicably, you seem to ignore the correction to this flaw in your thinking that has been provided on this thread. For example housing. What were the building materials in Israel in 600 B.C.? What were the native building materials found in mesoAmerican in 600 B.C.? What was Nephi's experience in construction in Jerusalem before they left?

Nowhere are we given information that Nephi was a skilled carpenter or builder, except for what God instructed him to do in building a ship. If he didn't know the basic construction methods, who taught him the skills he needed to teach his own people?

And you have ignored information provided to you that there was metallurgy going on in the New World. What is your basis for continuing to maintain a "no metallurgy" position?

There is another question you have ignored. If there were already highly effective, at least for the time, method of construction or metallurgy or whatever, what is to say that Nephi didn't learn it from a native source and then transmit it to his people?

I suppose I just you as being intransigent about accepting credible and valid information provided to you. Can you address the question, bolded, and show me there is a good reason for you to dismiss them?

[Doctor Steuss]

Did Nephi teach his people how to build these things, or did he teach (as in instructed, or told) them to build these things (possibly utilizing the technology that the "others" had)?

Here are the definitions from the 1828 dictionary for "teach." Iâ??ve bolded the ones that might apply to what Iâ??m trying to say above. I hope Iâ??m making sense, and I wonâ??t be offended if you dismiss this as I understand it is potentially an extremely weak argument (and possibly a confusing one to boot).

TEACH, v.t. pret. and pp. taught. [L. doceo; dico, dicto, and both these and the Gr. to show, may be of one family; all implying sending, passing, communicating, or rather leading, drawing.

1. To instruct; to inform; to communicate to another the knowledge of that of which he was before ignorant.

He will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths. Is.2.

Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. Luke 11.

2. To deliver any doctrine, art, principles or words for instruction. One sect of ancient philosophers taught the doctrines of stoicism, another those of epicureanism.

In vain they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Matt.15.

3. To tell; to give intelligence.

4. To instruct, or to practice the business of an instructor; to use or follow the employment of a preceptor; as, a man teaches school for a livelihood.

5. To show; to exhibit so as to impress on the mind.

If some men teach wicked things, it must be that others may practice them.

6. To accustom; to make familiar.

They have taught their tongue to speak lies. Jer.9.

7. To inform or admonish; to give previous notice to.

For he taught his disciples, and said--Mark 9.

8. To suggest to the mind.

For the Holy Spirit shall teach you in that same hour what ye ought to say. Luke 12.

9. To signify or give notice.

He teacheth with his fingers. Prov.6.

10. To counsel and direct. Hab.2.

TEACH, v.i. To practice giving instruction; to perform the business of a preceptor.

The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire. Mic.3.

Edit:

I did a search for "teach" in the BoM, and there appears to be passages where "teach" could be replaced with "told."

[Brant Gardner]

All the skills and arts found in Mesoamerica were native to Mesoamerica.

As you might recall, I agree with you. This is not in question. The question continues to be why you expect anything different based on the imported skill set and small numbers of people in Lehi's party. That is a question only obliquely answered.

For example, housing. There was a specific pattern to housing in Israel in 600 BC. There is an entirely different pattern to housing in Mesoamerica. They were not built in the same way.

Quite true. There are some very good reasons. Houses were built long before Lehites showed up and happen to be quite adaptive to both the available materials and to the climate of the area. The native homes are, in many ways, still better adapted than some modern houses I have been in compared to native homes in the same area. The native homes were much cooler and more pleasant inside.

So, why would we expect that there ought to be a change in housing if the materials are different, the climate is different, and anyone who stayed in an Old World house would soon tear it down to go back to the way that is more appropriate for the area?

There is no evidence of metallurgy in Mesoamerica

Actually, not technically correct, though I know what you mean. There is none for this period. There is mettallurgy in Mesoamerica later than this time periods.

As you also know, I agree that no evidence has been found. I don't agree that the absence of that finding means that it did not exist.

and many of the metals listed require metallurgy.

Few. Iron/steel, whatever those terms might have meant. Gold and silver are soft metals and much more amenable to being worked without the advanced metallurgical techniques. My suggestion has always been that the gold and silver were made into trade objects, not functional objects. There is much more emphasis on gold and silver than there is on iron. Ironically, iron is known to have been important in Olmec times, but not necessarily after smelting. The iron can be and was important without the advanced metallurgy you insist must exist just by the mention of the word. The actual archaeology is against you on that particular point.

Did you really not understand I had addressed this or did you just not accept my answer? I'm confounded by how anyone could be reading this thread and not know what I think the problem is.

I am pretty clear on what you think the problem is. However, you haven't applied the information you have collected to the actual situation, preferring to deal in such large generalities that they cannot be relevant. If you are to assume that Dever's quotation is relevant to the New World, you must show how the conditions of the two immigrations are similar (which will be impossible). Else you are simply proof-texting from an archaeologist instead of a religious text--but still using passages without direct relevance to the situation.

Your suggestion that a lack of change in pottery is inconceivable because of metal-working cannot be supported. That is clear because when advanced metal-working arrived in the archaeological record it was not accompanied by the types of changes you suggest had to be there.

The lack of metal working is nor more and no less than precisely that. A case where a textual record and the archaeological record are currently not in accord. It shouldn't take much perusal of the history of archaeology to discover that basing heavy arguments on that thin thread is a dicey proposition. So much changes one a single contradictory artifact is found. All such contradictory evidence was absent--until found.

What did Nephi teach his people? Without getting in to the anthropological issues of in-group aggrandizement, he says he taught woodworking. Could the Mesoamerican's have never worked in wood? Certainly they had. We don't know what he taught them, but wordworking they knew. Metalworking? I believe he did. In a trade context, that would be a closely guarded secret else the scarcity of the objects would no longer increase their value. Those kinds of secrets are carefully guarded (early iron and the Hittites had a similar secretive nature, as I recall--the Hittites had iron long before others did).

There is really little reason to expect that the Lehites would have impacted the basic cultural catalogue they discovered upon arrival. There are many reasons to suspect that the direction of cultural information was from Mesoamerica to the Lehites. Their presence in a new land, new climate, new raw materials, new expectations of what was artistic, all of those suggest that there was little of value in the Lehite to Mesoamerican culture exchange.

[Fortigurn]

Actually you keep saying that patterns of Israelite immigration in the Old World setting were done in one way and you can't see that same exact pattern exhibited in the New World. Which you interpret to mean there were no Lehites.

It's not just the pattern in the Old World setting, it's the standard pattern we see in group migration.

But, inexplicably, you seem to ignore the correction to this flaw in your thinking that has been provided on this thread. For example housing. What were the building materials in Israel in 600 B.C.? What were the native building materials found in mesoAmerican in 600 B.C.? What was Nephi's experience in construction in Jerusalem before they left?

Could you explain why this is relevant?

Nowhere are we given information that Nephi was a skilled carpenter or builder, except for what God instructed him to do in building a ship. If he didn't know the basic construction methods, who taught him the skills he needed to teach his own people?

Are you saying that the Nephite community came to Mesoamerica with no knowledge of construction and metallurgy? Did they build houses and make tools back in the Ancient Near East or not?

And you have ignored information provided to you that there was metallurgy going on in the New World. What is your basis for continuing to maintain a "no metallurgy" position?

This phrase 'metallurgy going on in the New World' is very vague. You've provided evidence for metallurgy in South America, not Mesoamerica.

There is another question you have ignored. If there were already highly effective, at least for the time, method of construction or metallurgy or whatever, what is to say that Nephi didn't learn it from a native source and then transmit it to his people?

You're speculating, but even if we grant that this took place, it's a process which takes a significant amount of time. Not only that, but it leaves evidence. But even that aside, you need to demonstrate that the Nephite community abandoned all of their previous cultural artefacts and manufacturing traditions, and adopted all of those practiced in the New World. You haven't shown that.

Was there a better way of making pots in Mesoamerica? Were there superior fabric making technologies? Can you provide any evidence for this theory whatever?

As you might recall, I agree with you. This is not in question. The question continues to be why you expect anything different based on the imported skill set and small numbers of people in Lehi's party. That is a question only obliquely answered.

For the reasons he has given. This question has not been 'obliquely answered'. It has been comprehensively answered.

Houses were built long before Lehites showed up and happen to be quite adaptive to both the available materials and to the climate of the area. The native homes are, in many ways, still better adapted than some modern houses I have been in compared to native homes in the same area. The native homes were much cooler and more pleasant inside.

So, why would we expect that there ought to be a change in housing if the materials are different, the climate is different, and anyone who stayed in an Old World house would soon tear it down to go back to the way that is more appropriate for the area?

Because:

* When people move to a new area they use their current technology, they don't stop and learn new techniques before building anything

* It takes time for migrants to figure out what works best and what doesn't

* Migrants frequently adapt their current technology and manufacturing techniques to new environments, they don't abandon them wholesale and universally adopt the local methods (English settlers to Australia didn't build bark humpies, they built Western style houses which they adapted to the local environment)

Can you provide any evidence that 'anyone who stayed in an Old World house would soon tear it down to go back to the way that is more appropriate for the area'?

Iron/steel, whatever those terms might have meant.

Look them up in a dictionary (Webster's 1828 preferred).

old and silver are soft metals and much more amenable to being worked without the advanced metallurgical techniques.

Absolutley not. They both require advanced metallurgical techniques because they require extremely high temperatures to melt and refine (gold requires 1,000 degrees C, and silver more than twice that). Pyrometallurgy requires smelting, which in turn requires a certain level of technology, especially for iron and steel.

Apparently people in the Book of Mormon were using bellows for smelting (a blast furnace or bloomery), which is an advanced technique the Mesoamericans would surely have seized on and adopted, since it's vastly superior to traditional respiratory methods of pyro-oxygenation. We would expect to see this technology in Mesoamerica if the Nephite community had it. Indeed, the Nephite community's technology was so superior to that of the locals, we would expect the technological transfer to be from the Nephites to the Mesoamericans, not the other way round.

The lack of metal working is nor more and no less than precisely that. A case where a textual record and the archaeological record are currently not in accord. It shouldn't take much perusal of the history of archaeology to discover that basing heavy arguments on that thin thread is a dicey proposition. So much changes one a single contradictory artifact is found. All such contradictory evidence was absent--until found.

The only thin thread here is the old 'It hasn't been found yet but it might be' argument.

[charity]

It's not just the pattern in the Old World setting, it's the standard pattern we see in group migration.

Could you explain why this is relevant? Are you saying that the Nephite community came to Mesoamerica with no knowledge of construction and metallurgy? Did they build houses and make tools back in the Ancient Near East or not?

* When people move to a new area they use their current technology, they don't stop and learn new techniques before building anything

* It takes time for migrants to figure out what works best and what doesn't

* Migrants frequently adapt their current technology and manufacturing techniques to new environments, they don't abandon them wholesale and universally adopt the local methods (English settlers to Australia didn't build bark humpies, they built Western style houses which they adapted to the local environment)

You have overlooked a couple of things, fortigun. First, people who move to a different place use different technology if the natural resources are different. I can guarantee that there weren't any French chateus in Oregon City in 1844 even though a lot of the settlers were French. Or adobe haciendas in Seattle in 1860 when a small group moved into the area from what is now California.

Second, the only technology we know that the Nephites brought with them were ship building skills. I don't think they lived on ships after they got here. Do we know what skills they brought with them? Remember, you are talking about a group that included 7 adult males, plus a couple of Ishmael's sons maybe? What did those 7 adults have experience doing? One was a servant. There is evidence that Lehi, and then his sons following after him, were probably merchants/traders. Ishmael and his sons, we don't know. In a small group, the chances that all possible skills being represented is pretty small.

Third about bark humpies or "western" style houses. How were the materials supplied? The tools to build? By ship cargos from the parent culture. How many supply ships do you suppose brought cargo to the Nephites?

And please don't overlook, which is seems so many of the critics do, that the group of Israelites from Jerusalem was exceptionally small for an immigrant group. The Pilgrims were a group of 102 indivuals. And met Squanto who spoke English. Even so a majority of the Pilgrams died the first year. 14 of the 18 adult women died.

And let's see, when were there English settlers to Australia? 600 B.C.? Try 1788.

[beastie]

First Charity:

Actually you keep saying that patterns of Israelite immigration in the Old World setting were done in one way and you can't see that same exact pattern exhibited in the New World. Which you interpret to mean there were no Lehites. But, inexplicably, you seem to ignore the correction to this flaw in your thinking that has been provided on this thread. For example housing. What were the building materials in Israel in 600 B.C.? What were the native building materials found in mesoAmerican in 600 B.C.? What was Nephi's experience in construction in Jerusalem before they left?

Itâ??s these type of statements that lead me to believe you are claiming that Nephi taught the ancient Mesoamericans to do things exactly the way they were already doing them. If this is not what you are saying, then you need to clarify.

Nowhere are we given information that Nephi was a skilled carpenter or builder, except for what God instructed him to do in building a ship. If he didn't know the basic construction methods, who taught him the skills he needed to teach his own people?

See above.

And you have ignored information provided to you that there was metallurgy going on in the New World. What is your basis for continuing to maintain a "no metallurgy" position?

I donâ??t know if you are deliberately being misleading (in that you actually understand the evidence of metallurgy in Mesoamerica is dated past 800 AD) or if you genuinely believe that a LDS apologist saying that it seems â??reasonableâ? to conclude that Mesaoamericans possessed the skills of metallurgy because the Peruvians did constitutes evidence.

I have provided citations on this thread in which scholars assert there was no metallurgy practiced during the BoM time frame and period. I have provided a link to my web essay in which I gave many, many more citations. And you ask what my basis is?

I literally have no idea whatâ??s going on with you. I donâ??t know if youâ??re not reading what I post and link, or if you read it with highly selective attention, but clearly you are not registering the information I have provided.

BTW, see Brantâ??s remarks. He concurs that there is no evidence of metallurgy during the BoM time period and area. We differ in that he believes it is reasonable to believe it may have existed despite that lack of evidence. I disagree for reasons I will state in my response to him.

There is another question you have ignored. If there were already highly effective, at least for the time, method of construction or metallurgy or whatever, what is to say that Nephi didn't learn it from a native source and then transmit it to his people?

By the time that Nephi stated he taught his people these life skills, under LGT, they had already joined with a pre-existing polity. These people already knew how to live in Mesoamerica. You are asking me to believe that these native Mesoamericans who already lived in a powerful polity, made Nephi their king, taught him how to live, and then he taught his small group of actual biological Nephites how to live.

It is these sort of contortions that lead me to conclude that the LGT inevitably leads to distorting the BoM itself.

I suppose I just you as being intransigent about accepting credible and valid information provided to you. Can you address the question, bolded, and show me there is a good reason for you to dismiss them?

See above.

Dr. Seuss

Did Nephi teach his people how to build these things, or did he teach (as in instructed, or told) them to build these things (possibly utilizing the technology that the "others" had)?

Here are the definitions from the 1828 dictionary for "teach." Iâ??ve bolded the ones that might apply to what Iâ??m trying to say above. I hope Iâ??m making sense, and I wonâ??t be offended if you dismiss this as I understand it is potentially an extremely weak argument (and possibly a confusing one to boot).

Thank you for your polite tone. Itâ??s refreshing, given the general tone of this thread.

This seems to me to be saying something very similar to what Charity postulated. I think it is a very weak argument for the reason I stated to Charity. The native Mesoamericans knew how to live in their own environment. Nephi had nothing to teach them. So you are asking me to believe that these people, who for some reason made Nephi king despite the fact that he had absolutely nothing to offer them other than an alien religion, had to be told by Nephi to take care of themselves? These native Mesoamericans already lived in a powerful, successful polity. They didnâ??t need Nephi to tell them what to do.

Brant:

As you might recall, I agree with you. This is not in question. The question continues to be why you expect anything different based on the imported skill set and small numbers of people in Lehi's party. That is a question only obliquely answered.

I expect it's probably for the same reason that you speculated in your Meridian article that Nephi taught the natives some valuable skill that enhanced their trading status and hence resulted in social stratification. There must be some reason that native Mesoamericans wanted Nephi to be their king, and Nephi himself states that he taught his people these skills.

Quite true. There are some very good reasons. Houses were built long before Lehites showed up and happen to be quite adaptive to both the available materials and to the climate of the area. The native homes are, in many ways, still better adapted than some modern houses I have been in compared to native homes in the same area. The native homes were much cooler and more pleasant inside.

So, why would we expect that there ought to be a change in housing if the materials are different, the climate is different, and anyone who stayed in an Old World house would soon tear it down to go back to the way that is more appropriate for the area?

It seems that you have a problem with the Book of Mormon text, not me.

Although your Meridian article is somewhat confusing in that you seem to state in one place that of course Nephi had to be joined with a more populated polity in order to be â??kingâ?, but then in another place you seem to speculate it could be a hamlet. You know that I believe the social stratification described in the BoM requires one of the more populated polities. You concurred with Sorensonâ??s choice of Kaminaljuyu. Kaminaljuyu was already an impressive polity by 600 BC â?? they had already built an irrigation system by 700 AD and were beginning to use stelae by 600 BC. This isnâ??t Podunk, Mesoamerica. It is a powerful polity in which the natives obviously were already very well led and organized. Why would they want someone like Nephi to be their king? You speculate he offered them some new technology. The BoM text itself says that Nephi taught his people how to build buildings, even a temple. You agree with me this makes no sense at all. There is no Old World skill, building, or craft technique demonstrate in Mesoamerica. Yet Nephi tells us that his teaching was so successful that the people were very industrious and successful.

Actually, not technically correct, though I know what you mean. There is none for this period. There is mettallurgy in Mesoamerica later than this time periods.

As you also know, I agree that no evidence has been found. I don't agree that the absence of that finding means that it did not exist.

Iâ??m glad you conceded you know what I meant. It is tiring to have to dot every I and cross every T, no matter how much previous information I have provided on the same thread.

BTW, do you concede that the type of pottery being made in Mesoamerica also indicates that Mesoamericans did not possess the heat-controlling technology that would allow them to make the type of pottery that is manifested later, when metallurgy was ALSO being demonstrated? This is why I linked the two earlier. The pyrotechnology as manifested through pottery is just as important as the lack of evidence of actual metallurgy.

Few. Iron/steel, whatever those terms might have meant. Gold and silver are soft metals and much more amenable to being worked without the advanced metallurgical techniques. My suggestion has always been that the gold and silver were made into trade objects, not functional objects. There is much more emphasis on gold and silver than there is on iron. Ironically, iron is known to have been important in Olmec times, but not necessarily after smelting. The iron can be and was important without the advanced metallurgy you insist must exist just by the mention of the word. The actual archaeology is against you on that particular point.

You are ignoring the context of the BoM. Nephi quite clearly knew how to mine metals, and create a controlled intense heat required to make metal tools. Besides, as you state yourself, gold didnâ??t have much value during Mesoamerica during the specified time period. Gold did not become more emphasized until around the time of metallurgy, 900 AD.

Youâ??re going to have to clarify how archaeology is against me on that point. Iâ??m not sure what point youâ??re referring to. I have repeatedly stated that metal working, as opposed to the more advanced metallurgy, was common in Mesoamerica from the Olmec period (and maybe even earlier) on. But the BoM clearly is talking about advanced metallurgy.

I am pretty clear on what you think the problem is. However, you haven't applied the information you have collected to the actual situation, preferring to deal in such large generalities that they cannot be relevant. If you are to assume that Dever's quotation is relevant to the New World, you must show how the conditions of the two immigrations are similar (which will be impossible). Else you are simply proof-texting from an archaeologist instead of a religious text--but still using passages without direct relevance to the situation.

Tell me, Brant. Can Mesoamerican archaeologists detect the presence of foreigners in a particular polity?

Your suggestion that a lack of change in pottery is inconceivable because of metal-working cannot be supported. That is clear because when advanced metal-working arrived in the archaeological record it was not accompanied by the types of changes you suggest had to be there.

Metal working or metallurgy? If youâ??re stating that the archaeological record shows that metallurgy existed but was not accompanied by a change in the firing of pottery, please provide citations demonstrating that assertion. It directly contradicts what Matheny quoted Karen Bruhns as saying.

â??Karen Bruhns has explored the issue of early metals in southern Mesoamerica in a well-researched article and remarks that the Maya had some access to metal objects from the Early Classic period onwards. After a review of the information available about these early metal objects, she concludes that the â??only relatively certain statement that can be made is, with the possible exception of the Soconusco disksâ?¦ all Classic period metal objects found in Mesoamerica are obviously southeastern in manufactureâ? (1989, 221). This means that these artifacts were not made in the Maya area or in another region of Mesoamerica but in lower Central America.

If these metal objects were available to the Maya by at least Early Classic times, then the obvious problem becomes explaining why the Maya did not begin producing their own metal artifacts given the availability of gold, silver, and copper in eastern Guatemala, western Honduras, and El Salvador. Bruhns suggests that the southern Mesaoamericans lacked adequate pyrotechnology to make the transition to successful metallurgy (1989, 224). Specifically they lacked the technological prowess to attain and maintain the necessary temperatures to smelt metal. The ceramics from the area were fired in poorly controlled open fires, which often resulted in fire-clouding and incompletely oxidized areas. Only by the Late Classic and Early Postclassic periods does evidence exist that the Maya had begun producing ceramic vessels in controlled firing situations, including kilns. The adoption of the Central American metallurgical technology occurred in the Maya area soon after the production of Plumbate pottery began. Plumbate pottery has a vitrified surface and, according to Bruhns, the â??temperatures which produce the characteristic vitrification of Tohil Plumbate are precisely those which are appropriate for smelting.â? (1986, 226)â?

If you have evidence that contradicts this assertion by a scholar that has apparently delved, in detail, into the issue of â??early metals in southern Mesoamericaâ? then please provide it.

The lack of metal working is nor more and no less than precisely that. A case where a textual record and the archaeological record are currently not in accord. It shouldn't take much perusal of the history of archaeology to discover that basing heavy arguments on that thin thread is a dicey proposition. So much changes one a single contradictory artifact is found. All such contradictory evidence was absent--until found.

Brant, there is no linguistic evidence for metallurgy. There is only linguistic evidence for the existence of metal, which obviously could be meteorite iron, or outcrops. We already discussed this on ZLMB. If you know of linguistic evidence to support the existence of the process of metallurgy, it is well past time to share it. Otherwise, there is no discord between archaeology and the textual record (unless youâ??re counting the BoM as a textual record, which is begging the question).

What did Nephi teach his people? Without getting in to the anthropological issues of in-group aggrandizement, he says he taught woodworking. Could the Mesoamerican's have never worked in wood? Certainly they had. We don't know what he taught them, but wordworking they knew. Metalworking? I believe he did. In a trade context, that would be a closely guarded secret else the scarcity of the objects would no longer increase their value. Those kinds of secrets are carefully guarded (early iron and the Hittites had a similar secretive nature, as I recall--the Hittites had iron long before others did).

So you DO think Nephi taught the Mesoamericans some new skill. So there should be evidence of NEW skill with Old World ties that occurred in Kaminaljuyu around this time period that helped it become a powerful polity. IIRC, the only manufacturing that helped solidify Kaminaljuyuâ??s power was the obsidian trade, hardly a skill that the Mesoamericans needed Nephi to teach them.

It doesnâ??t matter if it was a closely guarded secret. We could still find evidence of it in the people who possessed the technology.

There is really little reason to expect that the Lehites would have impacted the basic cultural catalogue they discovered upon arrival. There are many reasons to suspect that the direction of cultural information was from Mesoamerica to the Lehites. Their presence in a new land, new climate, new raw materials, new expectations of what was artistic, all of those suggest that there was little of value in the Lehite to Mesoamerican culture exchange.

Kaminaljuyu was a powerful polity, being led by Judeo-Christians. The powerful polities of the area were the ones that impacted the rest of Mesoamerica the MOST. You know as well as I do that the entire trajectory of Mesoamerica is based on the Holy Lord concept, in which religion and politics were intricately enmeshed, and completely contradictory to Judeo-Christianity. You are asking me to believe that one of the most powerful polities of the region that had tremendous impact on the rest of the region really didnâ??t have any impact at all. Or you are asking me to believe that Nephi didnâ??t have an impact on Kaminaljuyu, which also is completely contradictory with the BoM.

[beastie]

Second, the only technology we know that the Nephites brought with them were ship building skills.

This requires ignoring many passages in the BoM, that quite explicitly states that Nephi knows the technology of advanced metallurgy and how to make tools from metal.

[Brant Gardner]

It's not just the pattern in the Old World setting, it's the standard pattern we see in group migration.

It certainly depends upon the size of the group and how far they have come. It depends upon the nature of the culture they come into. The chichimec incursion into Mesoamerican thoroughly Mesoamericanized them. There are legendary artifacts, but little in the material culture. A couple Spaniards were captured by the Maya on the Yucatan peninsula. One stayed with them but adapted to their culture and didn't provide any material culture.

The ability to continue making things is entirely dependent on the ability of the immigrants to make them in the first place, which is why the pottery example that began this thread was so important (and, I suspect, why it has disappeared).

Could you explain why this (housing materials) is relevant?

I'm afraid if I have to explain why available natural resources makes a difference that the answer wouldn't do much good.

Are you saying that the Nephite community came to Mesoamerica with no knowledge of construction and metallurgy?

We know that Nephi came with metallurgy skills. We know he built a boat. We don't know that any other member of the group ever built/created anything. As wealthy city dwellers, they likely did not. That has been part of the point of at least the pottery discussion. There is no reason to suspect that they made pottery. They would have purchased it.

Now, metal-working is a known issue. I agree that there is no current solid evidence. However, that does not automatically translate into a generic discussion.

Did they build houses and make tools back in the Ancient Near East or not?

Nephi made tools. We don't know that of anyone else. No one was ever discussed as building a house and there is no reason to believe that they would have. They lived in a house, but that requires considerably less skill than creating one. Given the differences in materials and the climate, the Jerusalem-style house would have been quickly disposed of in the New World as mal-adapted. It had no functional advantage over the native style. Surely you are not suggesting that no immigrant has ever learned from the people they merged with? Evidence is strongly against you there.

This phrase 'metallurgy going on in the New World' is very vague. You've provided evidence for metallurgy in South America, not Mesoamerica.

I haven't provided any. You have me confused with someone else. There is no question that metallurgy is present in Mesoamerica. It isn't the place, it is the time. If you are going to argue a point, you should make sure you have the right one.

But even that aside, you need to demonstrate that the Nephite community abandoned all of their previous cultural artefacts and manufacturing traditions, and adopted all of those practiced in the New World. You haven't shown that.

Hmmm. . . just how would you propose that I might do that? Let's say that I provide evidence that we find Mesoamerican material culture but not Old World, would that do it to show that they adopted the technology of the New World? Somehow I doubt that.

As for the speculation about their adoption of local material culture, it isn't a tough speculation. You take a people who had never grown their own fiber plants, whatever food plants they grew were adapted to a different climate and zone (Jared Diamond is useful here). They are not known to have created anything except in Nephi's case, who made tools and a ship. Soon after arriving in the New World this colony splits into two pieces, making a small colony into two very small colonies, neither of which was used to creating their own clothing or pottery, and even if they were, they were not familiar with the local sources of such things.

I agree that it takes time to learn these things, which is why the best hypothesis is that they used the clothing and pottery they brought with them until they wore out and then they used what the locals made. They did not reinvent entire material cultures to replicate something that they had left behind. Because they were integrated into an existing population, there was no incentive to continue a clothing style that was not adapted to the new climate. There was no incentive to continue an artistic tradition that had no symbolic or artistic tradition to anyone who might matter in the new location.

When you compare the dynamics of a large population influx to what happens with a very limited population you are comparing incomparables.

Was there a better way of making pots in Mesoamerica? Were there superior fabric making technologies?

If you have never thrown a pot, then anyone who can has a superior technology. Can I prove that? Easily. I am from a very sophisticated culture. Anyone who has ever successfully made a pot has a better technology than I do. What about clothing? What fibers should be used? What local animals might make suitable leather? What materials would you use to tan it? If you had never made cloth or tanned leather, even if you come from the most sophisticated culture in the world, it does you no good. The TV reality show Survivor has never produced any good replicas of toasters - or toast.

* When people move to a new area they use their current technology, they don't stop and learn new techniques before building anything

This statement depends entirely upon the size and composition of the group moving into the new area. Surely you don't believe that a group that lacks a technology will perforce be able to reproduce it simply because they have seen it before?

* It takes time for migrants to figure out what works best and what doesn't

It depends on what kind of help they have. The Massachusett's colony had to adopt some of the native ways just to survive. Of course, they survived because they had continuous contact with the Old World. See Jamestown.

* Migrants frequently adapt their current technology and manufacturing techniques to new environments, they don't abandon them wholesale and universally adopt the local methods (English settlers to Australia didn't build bark humpies, they built Western style houses which they adapted to the local environment)

Two problems with your analogy. A larger base with a requisite knowledge-base and consistent contact with the "mother" culture. Both of those factors are absent in the Book of Mormon case. A more interesting example is the archaeological site that touched off this thread. It was a group of people a long way from a culture area, who were apparently not from that area. They adopted the style. From the very first post: "When their society became stratified, the new rulers needed emblems ... to justify their rule over people who used to be their equals," Canto said of the inhabitants, who may not have been ethnically Olmec, but apparently revered the culture as the most prestigious."

So we have in that example a direct contradiction to your hypothesis. There, a people not only adopted, but exalted, a native style. They adapted it to their needs. Why? It was relevant to the surrounding cultures - it had local meaning. Whatever they were before they adopted the particular markings of that kind of stratefied society, they used local material culture to define themselves.

Can you provide any evidence that 'anyone who stayed in an Old World house would soon tear it down to go back to the way that is more appropriate for the area'?

Can you explain why indios in Mexico prefer to live in their traditional homes, even though the Spanish style is around them and available? I have been in both. I know which is more comfortable. The Spnaish has prestige value because it is the dominant culture, but the native home is much more pleasant inside. It is much cooler.

They both require advanced metallurgical techniques because they require extremely high temperatures to melt and refine (gold requires 1,000 degrees C, and silver more than twice that).

Thanks for the info.

Apparently people in the Book of Mormon were using bellows for smelting (a blast furnace or bloomery), which is an advanced technique the Mesoamericans would surely have seized on and adopted, since it's vastly superior to traditional respiratory methods of pyro-oxygenation.

You are fine on the idea that it is advanced. You are on very shaky grounds when you assume that an advanced technology would have been adopted. You are aware, I am sure, of the numerous cases where that is known not to have occurred? The wheel in Mesomerica is a rather relevant example. They knew the wheel and wheel and axle. They knew it from very early times. They never did much with it. Seems inconceivable, but that's what happened.

You suggesting about what they would have done is simply not based in historical example. There is a wide range of ways that people respond to technologies.

We would expect to see this technology in Mesoamerica if the Nephite community had it.

So you say. Unfortunately, history indicates that you have overreached your conclusion. That simply cannot be said with any confidence. One can wonder why it would have been adopted, but no conclusion can be drawn from the simple fact that it wasn't. See the wheel, above.

Indeed, the Nephite community's technology was so superior to that of the locals, we would expect the technological transfer to be from the Nephites to the Mesoamericans, not the other way round.

Really? What superior technology did they possess? I concede metallurgy, and also suggest that there wer very good reasons to keep that a trade secret that wasn't passed around. Still, we can argue that point.

What else was superior? A catalogue please. After the catalogue, please indicate how that technology could have been imported by Lehites.

[charity]

beastie says : Itâ??s these type of statements that lead me to believe you are claiming that Nephi taught the ancient Mesoamericans to do things exactly the way they were already doing them. If this is not what you are saying, then you need to clarify.

my answer: where does Nephi teaching mesoAmericans anything come into it? Nephi taught his people.

beastie says:I donâ??t know if you are deliberately being misleading (in that you actually understand the evidence of metallurgy in Mesoamerica is dated past 800 AD) or if you genuinely believe that a LDS apologist saying that it seems â??reasonableâ? to conclude that Mesaoamericans possessed the skills of metallurgy because the Peruvians did constitutes evidence.

my answer: what would you expect to find as artifacts some 2000 years after the event in a climate where metals rust and corrode at a very high rate. So a scholar which does not recognize that doesn't rate very high on the smart scale.

beastie says, "I literally have no idea whatâ??s going on with you. I donâ??t know if youâ??re not reading what I post and link, or if you read it with highly selective attention, but clearly you are not registering the information I have provided."

my answer: I read and register. I just don't believe your interpretations, especially when real scholars in the field disagree with your conclusions.

beastie says: "By the time that Nephi stated he taught his people these life skills, under LGT, they had already joined with a pre-existing polity. These people already knew how to live in Mesoamerica. You are asking me to believe that these native Mesoamericans who already lived in a powerful polity, made Nephi their king, taught him how to live, and then he taught his small group of actual biological Nephites how to live."

my answer: I don't see anything in what Nephi says he is teaching his people to be life skills. 2 Ne. 5: 15

And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance. Buildlings, which he later says was a temple. He doesn't mention houses. The last time I heard people weren't too interested in working with gold and silver if they didn't have enough to eat. It has been suggested that what the Nephites "manufactured" would have been valuable in trade.

We stick with the Book of Mormon. We don't try to force the square peg of the Lehite immigration of 30 or so people into the round hole of the Old World Israelite immigration of 2 million people.

[Fortigurn]

You have overlooked a couple of things, fortigun. First, people who move to a different place use different technology if the natural resources are different.

I haven't overlooked that. If there was clay in Mesoamerica, then pots could be made. If there were metals, then metallurgy could be continued. And so on. You've been arguing strenuously for the availability of metals in Mesoamerica, and you can hardly deny that there's clay there.

Second, the only technology we know that the Nephites brought with them were ship building skills.

Absolutely false. This has been demonstrated in a previous post. Are you honestly suggesting they did a brain dump before they left, and deliberately erased all knowledge of metallurgy, pottery techniques, clothing manufacture, and construction?

Do we know what skills they brought with them?

Yes we do, because we've been told in considerable detail.

Third about bark humpies or "western" style houses. How were the materials supplied? The tools to build? By ship cargos from the parent culture. How many supply ships do you suppose brought cargo to the Nephites?

The materials were not supplied by ship cargos from the parent culture. They were taken from the local environment. Local trees were cut down, local stone was used. I suggest you read some Australian history. You cannot possibly believe that English settlers brought tons of English stone and timber over from England to make their houses? It's completely untrue.

Likewise, when German settlers came later, they used local stone and local timber to build their houses and churches in the German style. Again, when the Chinese settlers came they used local materials to build their houses in the Chinese style.

And please don't overlook, which is seems so many of the critics do, that the group of Israelites from Jerusalem was exceptionally small for an immigrant group. The Pilgrims were a group of 102 indivuals. And met Squanto who spoke English. Even so a majority of the Pilgrams died the first year. 14 of the 18 adult women died.

I am not overlooking it. What relevance do you think this has?

And let's see, when were there English settlers to Australia? 600 B.C.? Try 1788.

What has this to do with anything?

[Brant Gardner]

By the time that Nephi stated he taught his people these life skills, under LGT, they had already joined with a pre-existing polity. These people already knew how to live in Mesoamerica. You are asking me to believe that these native Mesoamericans who already lived in a powerful polity, made Nephi their king, taught him how to live, and then he taught his small group of actual biological Nephites how to live.

Overreading again. I don't think the Nephi's first settlement was that sophisticated or that large. I think it somewhat anomalous that he was called a king. There was a developing town, but it took a while to grow. Nothing suggests your "powerful polity" statement.

The native Mesoamericans knew how to live in their own environment. Nephi had nothing to teach them. So you are asking me to believe that these people, who for some reason made Nephi king despite the fact that he had absolutely nothing to offer them other than an alien religion, had to be told by Nephi to take care of themselves? These native Mesoamericans already lived in a powerful, successful polity. They didnâ??t need Nephi to tell them what to do.

A repetition of the "powerful polity" error. As for the most likely scenario, I have suggested the coalition of several hamlets who had previously had allegiance to a larger site, but saw something of value in Nephi. I have suggested that it was his metal-working skill that was put to use in created trade goods and thereby created a desireable resource that a new group could exploit.

That is very different from your description.

I expect it's probably for the same reason that you speculated in your Meridian article that Nephi taught the natives some valuable skill that enhanced their trading status and hence resulted in social stratification. There must be some reason that native Mesoamericans wanted Nephi to be their king, and Nephi himself states that he taught his people these skills.

Somehow, I seem to be consistent. Nephi had limited skills to teach. He couldn't teach them how to weave cotton. Even if there were a lot of cotton around, I doubt he knew much about it. He probably knew a lot about caring for camels, but that wasn't particularly useful. I really doubt he could throw a pot.

Although your Meridian article is somewhat confusing in that you seem to state in one place that of course Nephi had to be joined with a more populated polity in order to be â??kingâ?, but then in another place you seem to speculate it could be a hamlet.

See above. Sorry I confused you.

You know that I believe the social stratification described in the BoM requires one of the more populated polities.

Yes. You know we disagree. However, you also seem to forget that those discussions center around Zarahemlan and are only relevant between 500 and 600 years later than Nephi. Things had changed by then, but we still disagree on the nature of the change. Imputing Zarahemla complexity to the city of Nephi is far overreaching logic.

You concurred with Sorensonâ??s choice of Kaminaljuyu.

I accept his geography, I don't necessarily believe that his site designations are firm. I actually think Kaminaljuyu was too large to be the city of Nephi early on. Still, you are correct that I don't spend time worrying about those designations.

The BoM text itself says that Nephi taught his people how to build buildings, even a temple. You agree with me this makes no sense at all. There is no Old World skill, building, or craft technique demonstrate in Mesoamerica. Yet Nephi tells us that his teaching was so successful that the people were very industrious and successful.

This is where a grounding in ancient literatures is helpful. There are several times where Mormon describes the lazy Lamanites. There is a cultural stereotype of the Lamanites that lasts for the entire text. However, it comes in direct conflict with the evidence of the text. How does such a thing happen? In ancient literature, it happens all of the time. At one point Mormon says that the Lamanites learned to read and write because of apostate Nephites. That is culturally and anthropologically appropriate to say. It is historically inaccurate and a historian should see that right away. Of course Nephi taught them everything. He was their king. Of course he established their culture. That is what a founder does. Reading Nephi as a history rather than as a work of ethnopoesis imposes perspective errors.

BTW, do you concede that the type of pottery being made in Mesoamerica also indicates that Mesoamericans did not possess the heat-controlling technology that would allow them to make the type of pottery that is manifested later, when metallurgy was ALSO being demonstrated?

Of course not. That is why I asked you to show the pottery changing when the pyro-technology was adopted. They two are not as correlated as you make them out to be.

Gold did not become more emphasized until around the time of metallurgy, 900 AD.

That is difficult to demonstrate because it presupposes that the ability to make objects created the trade value. That is, of course, what I suggest for Nephi. We don't disagree that there is no clear evidence at that point in time, however, it isn't unusual for a text to disagree with the currently discovered artifacts. One discovery changes a lot. See San Bartolo's revision of the nature of what "Classic" meant.

Tell me, Brant. Can Mesoamerican archaeologists detect the presence of foreigners in a particular polity?

Depends on the size and the duration. There were foreign barrios in Teotihuacan. There is little evidence of Chicimec material culture. The Aztecs were late-comers to Mesoamerica and their language is related to Southwest US groups. Nevertheless, they were rather completely Mesoamericanized. Their material culture was Mesoamerican and the largest amount of their religion was Mesoamerican. We can trace the differences only because there is so much available information recorded after the conquest. Without that, we would be unable to say that the Aztecs had ever been anything but Mesoamerican.

It doesnâ??t matter if it was a closely guarded secret. We could still find evidence of it in the people who possessed the technology.

If you found where they lived. If you dug in the right place and deep enough. If the technology persisted. If. I have seen a little more indication of some early traces of metal, but as I told you before, I am not all that interested. I have other things occupying my time and that isn't one I am spending my efforts on.

[charity]

fortigun, just because a parent culture knows how to do something, doesn't mean that every individaul in that culture has the same skill set. Talk about a brain dump! Pluck 7 adult males out of their home environment, which was by all description pretty cushy for the time, and put them in a situation where they had to support themselves by manufacture and not by purchase and what do you have? People who have to learn pretty fast.

You are just not thinking this through. Or maybe your experience is just extremely limited. I grew up in a rural area of southern Oregon during a time when naive city folk thought it was a great thing to "get back to the land." Move out onto a farm. We were years ahead of "Green Acres." These people had books, telephones, television and modern transportation. And they still made goofs that would have killed them had they not had mega help from the "indigenous" population. They didn't know a thing. They had bought eggs in cartons in the store, and one person was shocked at finding out "where eggs came from."

Can you tell me who was the who was the carpenter and who was the spinner in Lehi's group?

[Fortigurn]

fortigun, just because a parent culture knows how to do something, doesn't mean that every individaul in that culture has the same skill set.

I have not suggested any such thing. I have simply pointed out that the Book of Mormon tells us explicitly that they had this knowledge available to them.

Pluck 7 adult males out of their home environment, which was by all description pretty cushy for the time, and put them in a situation where they had to support themselves by manufacture and not by purchase and what do you have? People who have to learn pretty fast.

What evidence do you have that none of the males in the Nephite community had any practical knowledge, and were forced to purchase anything they needed?

Your Oregon example isn't relevant, because we are not discussing 20th century urbanites moving to the country.

Can you tell me who was the who was the carpenter and who was the spinner in Lehi's group?

Not unless it's in the text. How is that relevant?

[juliann]

However, you haven't applied the information you have collected to the actual situation, preferring to deal in such large generalities that they cannot be relevant. If you are to assume that Dever's quotation is relevant to the New World, you must show how the conditions of the two immigrations are similar (which will be impossible). Else you are simply proof-texting from an archaeologist instead of a religious text--but still using passages without direct relevance to the situation.

It is very important to keep pointing out Beastie's methods. One of the best examples I have seen is her use of Dever. She uses him, a prominent expert as if he represents a very disputed and contentious area of study. She has tried to use Dever before so she knows that Dever is just one of many in a very disputed and contentious area of study...the beginnings of Israel and the place of the OT. She either doesn't think it matters that she is withholding information or she knows it does matter. Neither option places her in a credible position. Very generally stated the debate began over a conquest model, the peaceful infiltration model or a peasant revolt model. Beastie needs us to only think there is one model..the one she thinks supports her opinion about BOM settlement.

This is explained in an easily understandable way on the BAS site:

http://members.bib-arch.org/nph-proxy.pl/0...3d1&UserID=

There is no need to withhold information unless it is important that the reader be guided to a particular conclusion. Beastie tries to hide vital competing information or refused to admit it exists in every interaction I have observed regardless of the topic. She has to in order to maintain the conclusion she started with.

What is ironic about her false picture of the Israelites beginnings is that the theories work against her conclusion not for it. As can be seen from the article, Beastie's pet theory about immigrants bringing identifiable materials that signal their presence isn't supported by the very scholarship she threw in the arena. Shanks explains the houses and pottery found in the new developments in the Canaan hill country...which are being attributed to the first Israelites.

At one time, the four-room house was considered a peculiarly Israelite style of architecture, but we will soon see that this is not necessarily true.

The settlers in the hill country also had a new kind of storage jar that is called a collared-rim jar. The collar is right around the shoulder, just below the neck of the vessel. Itâ??s a little decorative element. It doesnâ??t have a function. And at one time this was thought to be a style of Israelite pottery. If you found the collared-rim jars in an excavation this was an indication that it was an Israelite context, but this too is not necessarily true.

Can Beastie use Dever to support herself? Only if she doesn't tell the whole story. Can she hide this? Only if you aren't familiar with the subject matter. She has the advantage that not many are familiar with BOM scholarship. That is why it is important to see her methods in more obvious areas. More from the Shanks article that isn't saying what Beastie is trying to make us believe...in fact, it supports Brant's assertion that BOM immigrants aren't likely to be identified by their pottery or houses.

But you can see the picture that is emergingâ??new inhabitants occupying the sparsely settled hill countryâ??just the area that the Bible says the Israelites settled in when they crossed the Jordanâ??and a special kind of architecture and a special style of pottery. It is very tempting to say that here we have the incoming Israelites.

But is this enough to call these people Israelites? Many scholars donâ??t think it is. For example, some of these four-room houses have been found outside the areas supposedly settled by the Israelites, including sites east of the Jordan. Moreover, antecedents of this architecture can be found among the earlier Canaanites.

As for the collared-rim jars, the use of these particular vessels may simply reflect needs of anyone living in the hill country to transport water. The collared-rim jar does not necessarily reflect ethnicity. It may simply reflect the peculiar needs of anyoneâ??Israelite or Canaaniteâ??living in the hill country.

Again, Beastie has made an outrageous leap in trying to use early Israelite settlements at all. But she had a book and found something convenient. The time is off. The geography is off. The culture is off. The natural resources are off. But this is what she does quite consistently and then becomes combative when her flawed methodology and her over reaching is pointed out to her again and again and again and again. This is what you get. Reader beware.

[charity]

I have not suggested any such thing. I have simply pointed out that the Book of Mormon tells us explicitly that they had this knowledge available to them.

What evidence do you have that none of the males in the Nephite community had any practical knowledge, and were forced to purchase anything they needed?

Your Oregon example isn't relevant, because we are not discussing 20th century urbanites moving to the country.

Not unless it's in the text. How is that relevant?

I will only make this one response, since you aren't listening. The Book of Mormon says that Nephi taught his people. If they already knew, why did Nephi have to teach them? If Nephi knew things that the older population didn't, where did he get that knowledge?

What evidence do I have that the Nephites purchased everything they needed? They were city folk. Nephi is perfectly comfortable in the city of Jerusalem. Do city folk generaly purchase or do they produce everything they need? Which is it?

No we weren't talking about 20th century A.D. urbanites moving to the country. We were talking about 6th century B.C. urbanites moving to the country.

[Fortigurn]

I will only make this one response, since you aren't listening. The Book of Mormon says that Nephi taught his people. If they already knew, why did Nephi have to teach them? If Nephi knew things that the older population didn't, where did he get that knowledge?

I am certainly listening. What I'm hearing is that they had the knowledge you claim they didn't have. You're telling me very clearly that Nephi had this knowledge, and taught it to them.

And of course, by your argument we must assume that everything Nephi didn't tell us he taught them, represents knowledge they didn't have. He didn't mention pottery, so obviously they already had pottery skills. He didn't mention linen manufacture, so obviously they already had those skills. He didn't mention houses (though honestly, what are 'buildings'?), so obviously they had those skills.

What evidence do I have that the Nephites purchased everything they needed? They were city folk. Nephi is perfectly comfortable in the city of Jerusalem. Do city folk generaly purchase or do they produce everything they need? Which is it?

You're imposing 20th century urban norms on an ancient civilization. City folk in Jerusalem during the 6th century BC did not purchase everything they needed. Even in the height of Jerusalem's prosperity, during the 10th century reign of Solomon, urban women were responsible for making clothing for their families, by hand. We're not talking about an 'urban' society as you think of it. Jerusalem never achieved even the kind of urbanisation enjoyed by the Romans.

No we weren't talking about 20th century A.D. urbanites moving to the country. We were talking about 6th century B.C. urbanites moving to the country.

But you're treating these 6th century BC urbanites as if they were 20th century urbanites.