Olmec-influenced City Found In Mexico

[charity]

I would like to see a time when we were comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges. The entrance of Israelites into Caanan is apples. Two million or so Israelites, going from one desert area to another. Lehi into the New World. 30 or so, desert to jungle. Not even apples to oranges. More like apples to onions.

Sure, we know Nephi describes workmanship. Where did this knowledge come from? I don't recall Laman and Lemuel or Sam or Nphi being described as artisans from their life in Jerusalem. What Nephi learned about tool making, he learned at Bountiful, instructed by the Lord. Where did they learn the other kinds of manufacture they learned? They were years away from Jerusalem. The older ones had died. The youngest ones hadn't even seen Jerusalem. These are questions for which there is no answer in the text. And simply assuming something based on apples to onions situations doesn't work.

[The Dude]

I would like to see a time when we were comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges. The entrance of Israelites into Caanan is apples. Two million or so Israelites, going from one desert area to another. Lehi into the New World. 30 or so, desert to jungle. Not even apples to oranges. More like apples to onions.

Sure, we know Nephi describes workmanship. Where did this knowledge come from? I don't recall Laman and Lemuel or Sam or Nphi being described as artisans from their life in Jerusalem. What Nephi learned about tool making, he learned at Bountiful, instructed by the Lord. Where did they learn the other kinds of manufacture they learned? They were years away from Jerusalem. The older ones had died. The youngest ones hadn't even seen Jerusalem. These are questions for which there is no answer in the text. And simply assuming something based on apples to onions situations doesn't work.

Comparing a fictional story to real places and history is apples to onions. You're right, it doesn't work. Anyone who isn't LDS can see this.

[charity]

Too bad your little bubble keeps getting nicked, the dude, as these "fictional" places keep showing up in real world geography. One of these days the nick will burst it completely.

[beastie]

I would like to see a time when we were comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges. The entrance of Israelites into Caanan is apples. Two million or so Israelites, going from one desert area to another. Lehi into the New World. 30 or so, desert to jungle. Not even apples to oranges. More like apples to onions.

Sure, we know Nephi describes workmanship. Where did this knowledge come from? I don't recall Laman and Lemuel or Sam or Nephi being described as artisans from their life in Jerusalem. What Nephi learned about tool making, he learned at Bountiful, instructed by the Lord. Where did they learn the other kinds of manufacture they learned? They were years away from Jerusalem. The older ones had died. The youngest ones hadn't even seen Jerusalem. These are questions for which there is no answer in the text. And simply assuming something based on apples to onions situations doesn't work.

The Lord taught Nephi how to do things. Nephi taught his people how to do things. The things for which we find evidence, in the ground, are exactly the same things as all other native mesoamericans were doing, and had been doing, without intervention from either Nephi or God.

Draw your own conclusions. I'll just say it doesn't make sense for either God or Nephi to teach people how to do things they already knew how to do, and would probably have had to teach to him.

Not to mention the fact that we're talking about the most powerful polity in the region. This is a polity that had an irrigation system by 700 BC.

[charity]

beatie said, "Draw your own conclusions. I'll just say it doesn't make sense for either God or Nephi to teach people how to do things they already knew how to do, and would probably have had to teach to him."

Him is Nephi, and God would have had to teach him/Nephi? So what is it? They knew already, or God had to teach him/Nephi?

Your whole argument, which is totally unsupported, is that there were skilled potters among the 30 or so Lehites. Please furnish a source.

[beastie]

would probably have had to teach to him

No, the natives would have had to teach Nephi.

Your whole argument, which is totally unsupported, is that there were skilled potters among the 30 or so Lehites. Please furnish a source.

It is so sad that you apparently believe this is my whole argument. It is testament either to your highly selective attending, or my poor writing abilities.

I'm not responding to a strawman, particularly one I've repeatedly addressed. The point isn't whether or not there were skilled potters, or even pots. But if you haven't gotten that yet, you're not going to.

[The Dude]

Too bad your little bubble keeps getting nicked, the dude, as these "fictional" places keep showing up in real world geography. One of these days the nick will burst it completely.

Is that a prediction? Can I put it in my tagline?

Or maybe you aren't serious. I seem to recall other threads where you go the other way and say there will never be such evidence. It's not part of the plan of faith. It would damn people like me who continue in unbelief.

Which is it?

[charity]

Duck and run, beastie. It is so much easier than addressing the issue.

We know from the text that Nephi needed help from God in constructing a boat, including using a forge to make tools.

You seem to think, based on an incomplete and hazy reading of Dever, that because Nephi knew how to use a forge to make tools, that this had to mean that a superior knowledge of pottery making would have come along with it. (the pyrotechnology argument.) And conversely, that if there were no pots of Old World construction in mesoAmerica, that this meant there was no knowledge of using a forge, thus no Nephi, no boat and no Lehites in the New World. Does that capture it in a nutshell?

But you have failed to address the real issue, which is not covered in the text. There were 30 or so Lehites. Their arrival in the New World was different from most other migrant groups we know of. They came into a land almost 180 degrees from what they were used to. (desert scrub to tropical rainforest) Whatever they brought with them, either in physical items or in knowledge, was not going to help them out very much in their new home. I just can hardly imagine the shock to the system of desert dwellers to end up in a very rainy environment. Tents and camels to this?

We don't know how they made the adjustment. Help from others they found already there, inspiration from God, their own intelligence in how to solve problems. The text does not say.

You can make guesses. But they are only guesses. A little humility about your conclusions would seem to be warranted here.

[beastie]

You seem to think, based on an incomplete and hazy reading of Dever,

You've read his book?

[charity]

Is that a prediction? Can I put it in my tagline?

Or maybe you aren't serious. I seem to recall other threads where you go the other way and say there will never be such evidence. It's not part of the plan of faith. It would damn people like me who continue in unbelief.

Which is it?

I don't know that I have ever sid that there will never be such evidence. But I do think that accepting on faith is the true test. And I also think that people who say they would believe if only this or only that are fooling themselves. If they don't have faith, they will find some way to deny what evidence is there. And we don't know what will damn any person. Only God knows the heart.

I will call your bluff. You can use that quote in your tag line if you wish. I don't think it would serve your purposes to do so, however.

beastie, like I said, Duck and run. Never answer a question or address an issue. I asked you first. You really engage my argument and I will give you my reading list.

[beastie]

Charity,

Have you read Dever's book?

I have addressed your argument, as much as I can figure out what in the heck your argument is.

You accused me of incomplete and hazy reading of Dever's book. It is only fair that you tell me whether or not you read it. I don't want a "reading list". I want an answer to a very direct question.

[charity]

beastie, as usual your twisting and turning is making me dizzy.

These are the questions I have asked you: 1. How do you know that a person who learns how to forge a tool to make a ship would carry that over to making superior pottery?

2. How do you know exaclty how much knowlege of pottery making would be carried in any immigrant group? And this immigrant group in specific?

Now, please address those and if you think you have already done so, just give me the Reader's Digest vesion. It would take so much time than multiple posts to say you already have.

Then I will answer your question, which came after my questions to you.

Thanks in advance.

[juliann]

I have addressed your argument

Right on schedule...

[beastie]

Charity,

Once again. The point is not whether or not they made pots. The point is that immigrants retain their material traditions even when they move to a strange land. That is how archaeologists detect their presence. If you insist that Nephi didn't know how to make a pot, instead focus on what he know Nephi did, indeed, know how to do and taught his people. He taught them to build houses, temples, and how to work with metal (and be industrious with their hands and labor, which heaven knows, could not possibly have included a pot). He knew how to create and sustain a fire at temperatures high enough to smelt metal. Show me evidence of any of this in ancient Mesoamerica.

Thanks in advance for answering my simple yes or no question: have you read Dever's book?

I must be insane to continue this.

[The Dude]

Charity, you said,

One of these days the nick will burst it completely.

I asked "Is that a prediction?"

Or in other words, do you think there will someday be such evidence that "my little bubble" of denial will "burst completely"?

If they don't have faith, they will find some way to deny what evidence is there.

So now it sounds like "my little bubble" of denial will remain impermeable to your little nicks of evidence forevermore. Unless I jump over to your side and take it on faith.

You were bluffing -- not me. Evidence will never validate the claim of BoM historicity to a person who lacks faith. It will always taste like an onion.

[charity]

Beastie, I will now accept that you will never answer a direct question. So, following your Golden Rule, I won't answer your direct question either. I guess I just have to play by your rules.

Oh, what the heck. Here is a direct question you will no doubt run away from, too. What makes you think that Nephi, who learned how to make a tool when he needed to make a boat, will continue to make such tools in the future when he doesn't need to make a boat?

And please don't give me "it stands to reason" as an answer. You weren't in mesoAmerica in 600 B.C. You don't know what the needs were, what the conditions were, and what the whole skill set was of the Lehites. Give me evidence, from the text, Book of Mormon, of course, that describes in detail what they did.

To give you a head start: Jarom 1: 8 "And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land, and became exceedingly rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of warâ??yea, the sharp pointed arrow, and the quiver, and the dart, and the javelin, and all preparations for war."

Fine workmanship of wood in buildings, existing in a humid climate after 2600 years? You think? What is "machinery" to Jarom? You expect a John Deere tractor? Tools? Weapons of war? Remember this is all from 2600 years ago. What would you expect to see? And if you don't know, how can you know when you see it?

Hint #2: Nothing in Jarom says anything about ship building tools.

Hint #3. I live in the Pacific Northwest. About the same rainfall as many parts of mesoAmerica, without the heat and humidity. Iron and steel structures built here (and we know it was after 1847 when the first settlers got here and started building) are rusting into piles of dirt. Let's see 2007-1847 = 160. That is only short 2,440 years. My my. And yes, you have brought out my sarcastic nature.

[The Dude]

Beastie, I will now accept that you will never answer a direct question. So, following your Golden Rule, I won't answer your direct question either.

You don't have to answer. We already know you never read the book. Another bluff.

[beastie]

You're right, Charity. I concede defeat. Obviously, ancient Mesoamericans would not find metal tools to be useful. I doubt that they ever availed themselves of the technology. They lived in a rainforest, after all.

BTW, we all know the answer to the question: did you read Dever's book?

Obviously, you have not. Yet somehow, you are able to determine I read it incompletely and hazily.

Now I shall go to something more productive, like repeatedly bang my head against a wall.

[charity]

Charity, you said,

I asked "Is that a prediction?"

Or in other words, do you think there will someday be such evidence that "my little bubble" of denial will "burst completely"?

So now it sounds like "my little bubble" of denial will remain impermeable to your little nicks of evidence forevermore. Unless I jump over to your side and take it on faith.

You were bluffing -- not me. Evidence will never validate the claim of BoM historicity to a person who lacks faith. It will always taste like an onion.

Remember we have had a conversation before about dismissive denial and credible belief. There is enough evidence for either. It is a choice. Someday you may make a different choice. You seem like a good guy. I hope someday you do. That isn't a bluff.

[juliann]

Charity,

Once again. The point is not whether or not they made pots. The point is that immigrants retain their material traditions even when they move to a strange land. That is how archaeologists detect their presence. If you insist that Nephi didn't know how to make a pot, instead focus on what he know Nephi did, indeed, know how to do and taught his people. He taught them to build houses, temples, and how to work with metal (and be industrious with their hands and labor, which heaven knows, could not possibly have included a pot). He knew how to create and sustain a fire at temperatures high enough to smelt metal. Show me evidence of any of this in ancient Mesoamerica.

Thanks in advance for answering my simple yes or no question: have you read Dever's book?

I must be insane to continue this.

You were the one throwing pots. All you are being asked to do is provide some evidence for your vivid imagination and time travel. Iron Age to "Judean pots" to Mesoamerica. Uh huh. You see...when you start pulling in biblical scholarship you really do need to know something besides Dever quotes. Go try this with Bokovy.

I love the rule about having to read a book to have an opinion on your unsupported leaps, though. That rule will come in useful when you ride your one book trick pony. There are a lot of books about Israel.

Have you read Kuhrt?

[beastie]

You were the one throwing pots. All you are being asked to do is provide some evidence for your vivid imagination and time travel. Iron Age to "Judean pots" to Mesoamerica. Uh huh. You see...when you start pulling in biblical scholarship you really do need to know something besides Dever quotes. Go try this with Bokovy.

So all those times apologists say "what would a Nephite pot look like?", they're talking about pots and only pots? They're not talking about their larger point that the Nephites completely adopted the native material traditions and that is why we can't find the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica? So if someone says "what would a Nephite pot look like", they're not making any statement other than that Nephi didn't make pots?

Dever made a simple statement about his experience with archaeological evidence of immigrants. I'm not talking about Biblical scholarship - I'm talking about Dever's statement that it would be unprecedented, in his experience, for a group to move into an area and completely adopt the material traditions of the new area, completely abandoning their former traditions. This has obvious applications to the LGT model as the apologists here normally present it. I can understand why you are creating diversions from that topic.

I love the rule about having to read a book to have an opinion on your unsupported leaps, though. That rule will come in useful when you ride your one book trick pony. There are a lot of books about Israel.

Let me explain how this internet board thing works. When you are responding to one particular statement another poster has made, you use the "quote" function to signify that. So when I quoted this line from charity:

You seem to think, based on an incomplete and hazy reading of Dever,

And then asked "you've read his book?" that was a little clue. No, people do not have to have read his book to respond, but if someone is going to state that I have engaged in an "incomplete and hazy reading of Dever", they ought to have read the book before making that assertion.

It's funny, though, I seem to recall you have different positions on googling and not reading the discussed book on other conversations. Well, consistency is an hobgoblin and all that.

Oh, btw, I'm still waiting for you to explain how your googled quote contradicted my own statements. Thanks so much in advance for responding to this, particularly since you stated that your googled quote "caught" me and I should admit it. I will freely admit it, as soon as you explain your assertion.

[Fortigurn]

To give you a head start: Jarom 1: 8 "And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land, and became exceedingly rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of warâ??yea, the sharp pointed arrow, and the quiver, and the dart, and the javelin, and all preparations for war."

Fine workmanship of wood in buildings, existing in a humid climate after 2600 years? You think? What is "machinery" to Jarom? You expect a John Deere tractor? Tools? Weapons of war? Remember this is all from 2600 years ago. What would you expect to see? And if you don't know, how can you know when you see it?

I would expect to see evdience of the items in bold. I'm being generous about the weapons, though I would expect to see evidence of them also.

Hint #2: Nothing in Jarom says anything about ship building tools.

Except:

* Fine workmanship of wood in buildings and machinery

* Fine workmanship in iron

* Fine workmanship of wood in copper

* Fine workmanship of wood in brass

* Fine workmanship of wood in steel

It may suprise you to know that hammers and nails made of iron, brass, copper, or steel are just as useful for making buildings or machinery as they are for making ships. And if you want to make 'tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of war', you're going to need serious metallurgy. The same kind of metallurgy you needed to build those ocean going ships.

Hint #3. I live in the Pacific Northwest. About the same rainfall as many parts of mesoAmerica, without the heat and humidity. Iron and steel structures built here (and we know it was after 1847 when the first settlers got here and started building) are rusting into piles of dirt. Let's see 2007-1847 = 160. That is only short 2,440 years. My my. And yes, you have brought out my sarcastic nature.

You'd be amazed at how long ferrous deopsits of iron and steel last. They don't have to be in once piece. As for copper, that lasts for thousands of years in the most ridiculous environments. Early Bronze Age metal artefacts have been found in England, despite having been buried for thousands of years in porous soil which has been repeatedly soaked by rain and damp. I believe a 4,000 year old axe head was one of the oldest artefacts ever found.

And let's not forget the many ancient metal artefacts which have survived being in salt water for hundreds of years, or even thousands. The Antikythera Mechanism is over 2,000 years old, for example, and it has been in sea water for almost the entire time.

[thesometimesaint]

delete.

[thesometimesaint]

Fortigurn:

SOMETHINGS survive in salt water. Most do not. Even that is dependent on the initial conditions upon submersion. Take for example Truk Lagoon in the south Pacific. Just 60 years after one of the biggest battles of WWII, resulting in the decimation of the Japanese fleet. Little remains beyond rusting hulks that are unsafe to visit. In 60 more years nothing will remain.

Utility is highly subjective. I find electricity highly useful. Without the surrounding infrastructure, even electricity would be of no use to the ancients.

[beastie]

Plenty of artifacts have survived in ancient Mesoamerica, including animal bones. While wood is more prone to disintegrate, some has been found. Many metal artifacts have been found, just from the wrong time period. This argument that "the things that could point to Nephites couldn't survive in a rainforest environment" is based on a lack of adequate background information.