Olmec-influenced City Found In Mexico

[Not quite me]

Since this last part of the topic has gotten off into the "why" of pottery making, or non-making by Nephites, let's get away from pages of cut and paste on neolithic man and get to the nitty gritty.

Maybe Mrs. Nephi said, "You expect me to get clay under my fingernails when I can run down to the Others Pottery Barn and just pick up a few pots?" Maybe the Nephites were busy enough with getting themselves established they didn't care to reinvent the wheel and just started using pots already made by an indigenous group. Why's are such useless questions to ask unless you can ask them of the individual(s) who were there. Any answer to a "why" question by anyone else is just a guess.

Well, beastie's post explains "why". Here you had native Americans making poor-quality pottery by firing it in open fires. It makes no sense to have a more technologically advanced people (the Nephites) not explain that there's a better way to make pottery. Or maybe the natives were just really resistant to change.

[Brant Gardner]

Juliann, the answer to why Nephi would have understood how to make pottery is going to take some lengthy citations.

Actually, it wasn't addressed at all. The question is who in Lehi's group could possibly have been a potter? By Lehi's time, this was specialized knowledge. People purchased pots in the city, they didn't make them. While someone might have specialized in metals, that in no way qualified them to know how to make pottery. I have several arcane skills, but there is no way that I would recognize the proper material to even begin to make a pot.

Lehi's group was too small, and came from the wrong background to assume that they would be capable of transferring pot-making technology. You can theorize about what other groups might have done, but the groups have to be large enough to have potters in them.

Your suggestion that Nephi had to know how to make pots because he knew about metals is unsupportable for the same reason that you cannot suggest that because someone knows how to make pots that they necessarily know how to work metals.

[Brant Gardner]

It makes no sense to have a more technologically advanced people (the Nephites) not explain that there's a better way to make pottery.

Let's use a simple example. I come from a much more technically advanced society. What are the chances that I could tell anyone a better way to make a pot? Hint - I couldn't tell them anything about it.

My culture could. I can't. The problem isn't what was available in the Old World. The problem is what a particular set of people, limited in size as the group was, and limited in their cultural experience as they had to have been (given their described social position) could have brought with them.

They could bring a pot. There is no indication of any ability that they brought an understanding of how to make one.

[structurecop]

It makes no sense to have a more technologically advanced people (the Nephites) not explain that there's a better way to make pottery. Or maybe the natives were just really resistant to change.

Maybe the Nephites weren't really concerned about the quality of pottery... kind of like how I just shrug and continue eating off my dollar-store utensils when I have a drawer full of perfectly good silverware.

[charity]

Well, beastie's post explains "why". Here you had native Americans making poor-quality pottery by firing it in open fires. It makes no sense to have a more technologically advanced people (the Nephites) not explain that there's a better way to make pottery. Or maybe the natives were just really resistant to change.

Oh, good grief, not quite me! The Lehites were city folk. They came from a more technologically advanced society. But did they do more than use the "technology?" I can play a piano. Send me to the jungle and you think I could construct a piano? You can obviously use a computer. Let's send you to Sierra Leone and you build a lap top. How about that?

[Not quite me]

Oh, good grief, not quite me! The Lehites were city folk. They came from a more technologically advanced society. But did they do more than use the "technology?" I can play a piano. Send me to the jungle and you think I could construct a piano? You can obviously use a computer. Let's send you to Sierra Leone and you build a lap top. How about that?

They had enough technology to smelt steel (and the scriptures explicitly state that), meaning that they also would have known how to make fires hot enough to fire pottery. One need only know how to make hotter fire to improve the native pottery. We're not talking piano construction.

[beastie]

Your suggestion that Nephi had to know how to make pots because he knew about metals is unsupportable for the same reason that you cannot suggest that because someone knows how to make pots that they necessarily know how to work metals.

No, it is absolutely not. You have brutally ignored the entire point. To smelt metals, one must have an understanding of advanced pyro-technology, which is what pottery is built on. But since it's a more advanced understanding of pyro-technology, it doesn't work in reverse. Ie, someone who knows how to control fire well enough to smelt metals already knows how to control fire well enough to make advanced pottery, but someone who knows how to make pottery without the controlled heat required for ceramics isn't going to be able to smelt metal. Did you read the citations? They made that clear.

Besides, you continue to ignore the point that pottery is only one example of the type of material that tells us who people were, and where they came from. You've read Dever's book, you know he is talking about far more than pottery. He's talking about how their houses were constructed, how tools were made, and many other artifacts. The point isn't just about pottery - it is about whether or not people completely abandon their past traditions when they migrate to a new location. Dever says they do not. You are saying that this is exactly what happened with the Nephites (other than their abstract religious beliefs, which they apparently manifested in material ways totally indistinguishable from native mesoamericans).

Now perhaps you can argue that the Nephite group was too small for us to find the evidence that they did not abandon their past material traditions completely, but the problem is that the BoM tells us Nephi became the leader of a significant Mesoamerican polity, and taught them material crafts.

So you're going to have to go with Charity's vote, and state, more or less, that God, being incomprehensible to human beings, chose to inspire Nephi to "teach" his people how to do things they - the native Mesoamerican "others", and everyone around them, were already doing and already knew how to do (and would actually have had to teach NEPHI), and inspired Nephi to not teach his people any Old World methods, even if they produced more desirable materials.

Or maybe he just didn't want to get his fingernails dirty.

[Not quite me]

Let's use a simple example. I come from a much more technically advanced society. What are the chances that I could tell anyone a better way to make a pot? Hint - I couldn't tell them anything about it.

Except, being one who knows how to smelt metal, you know how to make hotter fires, meaning that you could indeed show them how to make a better pot.

My culture could. I can't. The problem isn't what was available in the Old World. The problem is what a particular set of people, limited in size as the group was, and limited in their cultural experience as they had to have been (given their described social position) could have brought with them.

The text explicitly states that they knew how to "molten" metal, so your point about what they couldn't know is moot.

They could bring a pot. There is no indication of any ability that they brought an understanding of how to make one.

The natives already knew how to make pots. What they didn't know was how to make hotter fires. At the very least, if someone like Nephi showed up with vastly superior weapons made of metal (beastie's already explained that macahuitls weren't used in that time frame), they would want to know how to make them. The answer: really hot fires that humans can control. What you seem to be suggesting is that no one took advantage of this technology, either to make metal weapons or pottery. And that is, I believe, what doesn't make sense at all.

[Brant Gardner]

No, it is absolutely not. You have brutally ignored the entire point. To smelt metals, one must have an understanding of advanced pyro-technology, which is what pottery is built on.

I am not ignoring the point. They are qualitatively different. Contrary to your assertion, there is much more to making pottery than fire. This discussion is clearly not going to move forward, so I'll bow out.

[beastie]

That's fine, leave aside the pottery - that is only an example, symbolic of the larger issue - do migrants completely abandon their former traditions when they move?

Nephi may have been too rich to bother with pottery making, but he certainly wasn't too rich to bother with tool and metal making, housing construction, woodworking, and being industrious by "laboring with their hands'. The BoM quite explicitly states that Nephi taught his followers how to engage in these crafts. Unless, as charity seems to suggest, God just intervened and taught Nephi how do to things that just happened to be exactly how native Mesoamericans were already doing things (and hence, could have taught Nephi rather than vice versa), then the problem remains that no material evidence of the Old World influence has been found in Kaminaljuyu or any other Mesoamerican site.

[Not quite me]

That's fine, leave aside the pottery - that is only an example, symbolic of the larger issue - do migrants completely abandon their former traditions when they move?

As you said, the BofM suggests that Nephi taught the people both religious tradition and the methods of industry you describe. Pyrotechnology is a good representative, as it is one technology we know that Nephi had but the Mesoamericans apparently didn't. It would strike me as highly unusual for a group, even a small one, to abandon its most useful technologies.

[beastie]

As you said, the BofM suggests that Nephi taught the people both religious tradition and the methods of industry you describe. Pyrotechnology is a good representative, as it is one technology we know that Nephi had but the Mesoamericans apparently didn't. It would strike me as highly unusual for a group, even a small one, to abandon its most useful technologies.

I think it would be particularly unusual if the technology gave them an advantage over a deadly enemy. (economic or tactical)

Even if a society abandoned a more advanced technology in favor of an earlier, more primitive one, that would not erase all trace of the previous more advanced technology.

[Confidential Informant]

It would strike me as highly unusual for a group, even a small one, to abandon its most useful technologies.

But it would make sense for that small group to control the disemination of that technology. By holding the knowledge close to the vest the small Nephite group would have given themselves an economic advantage in that they possessed something that the surrounding natives did not and they could have leveraged it to their advantage. They would also have guarded the knowledge zealously because if everyone knows how to do then it deprives of them the economic advantage they have.

It is not unheard of in ancient societies for knowledge to be kept in such a manner.

C.I.

[beastie]

But it would make sense for that small group to control the disemination of that technology. By holding the knowledge close to the vest the small Nephite group would have given themselves an economic advantage in that they possessed something that the surrounding natives did not and they could have leveraged it to their advantage. They would also have guarded the knowledge zealously because if everyone knows how to do then it deprives of them the economic advantage they have.

It is not unheard of in ancient societies for knowledge to be kept in such a manner.

Yes, you're right, but, again, one would be able to find evidence of the more advanced technology within the group that used it. Remember, Nephi taught it to the people who made him king - aka, the citizens of an already powerful polity, Kaminaljuyu.

In fact, Brant, didn't you once suggest that Nephi teaching them more advanced technology could have been part of the reason they made him king? Wasn't that in a meridian article of yours?

[Confidential Informant]

Yes, you're right, but, again, one would be able to find evidence of the more advanced technology within the group that used it.

Would you?

Metal processing that leaves no trace.

There used to be an article about this that was posted at one time buy the link no longer works.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. What worries me is your dogmatic approach to your sources. You treat the books you have read with the same fundamentalist zeal that many of our other posters approach the bible. It's like your own form of inerrantism. Even Dr. Clark noted it in his response to you when he noted that you put far too much faith in the dating that was assigned, etc.

C.I.

[Not quite me]

Would you?

Metal processing that leaves no trace.

There used to be an article about this that was posted at one time buy the link no longer works.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. What worries me is your dogmatic approach to your sources. You treat the books you have read with the same fundamentalist zeal that many of our other posters approach the bible. It's like your own form of inerrantism. Even Dr. Clark noted it in his response to you when he noted that you put far too much faith in the dating that was assigned, etc.

C.I.

I don't know. I suppose that if "dogmatic faith in her sources" is the worst one can say about beastie, she's doing OK.

As for the smelting that leaves no trace, presumably the products of the smelting are still around, even if the smelters aren't. Given that we have neither smelters or their products in Mesoamerica (or evidence of pyrotechnology more advanced than simple open fires), the application of this traceless smelting process is purely speculative.

[beastie]

From Brantâ??s article: A Social History of the Early Nephites

http://www.meridianmagazine.com/sci_rel/030731fair.html

Secondly, we have Lehi's company entering an area dominated by small hamlets and perhaps a few villages. Such conditions would favor the acceptance of their party into those small communities. If they were seen as bringing important skills, a hamlet or two might be willing to join with them, and even willing to cede leadership to the new arrivals. Larger cities, however, might see them as threats and be less likely to desire to merge with them. They would surely not be willing to give up their sovereignty in favor of the newcomers, as the text indicates for Lehi's party. The conditions along the coast of Guatemala would therefore favor both contact with existing populations, and the possibility of merger with some of those native inhabitants.

I bolded the pertinent phrase. However, it is problematic to assert that Nephi joined with a few villages and hamlets when Kaminaljuyu was actually quite powerful.

But then you seem to contradict yourself with this:

The second event that indicates the presence of a larger population is the declaration of Nephi as king.5 Small hamlets do not have kings. To name one of a dozen men "king" is an insult, not a compliment. Finally, we have the designation of Jacob and Joseph as priests and teachers "over the land of my people."6 Were we to assume only Old World peoples at this point, we have a king and two priests servicing perhaps ten households. The early Nephite political/religious structure is too top heavy for so few people. The only situation that sufficiently explains our text is the presence of non-Old World peoples at this early date.

So Iâ??m not quite certain which theory you are proposing: was Nephi made king over a few small villages and hamlets, or over a significant polity like Kaminaljuyu?

Aside from that, you develop the point that Nephi probably taught his people new skills:

here is a condition, however, that explains all of Jacob's economic problems. That condition is trade. As will be noted, not just any trade, but trade in Mesoamerica at this particular point in time. As noted for the coastal region of Guatemala, there were others in the land when the Lehites arrived, and archaeology tells us that there are other populations and cities in the general land when the Nephites arrive at the location of their city, presumed to have been in the Guatemalan highlands. If we assume that the gold and silver were being worked, using metalworking skills Nephi could have taught them, then these worked goods would have exchange value with other cities, and the resulting importation of goods creates a situation where those engaged in the trade accumulate more unique prestige goods than those who do not trade outside of their own city. Thus trade provides precisely the conditions Jacob is combating.

If Nephi did teach the inhabitants of Kaminaljuyu some Old World skill that enhanced their economic status and trading, we should be able to find evidence of it.

[charity]

beastie, either you don't read well, or you deliberately misstate other's positions. In the future, if you want to quote me, please use the quote function and not your interpretation of what you think I meant. I don't appreciate the loose ways in which you take other's words to bolster your own argument.

[beastie]

Would you?

Metal processing that leaves no trace.

There used to be an article about this that was posted at one time buy the link no longer works. bomb.gif

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. What worries me is your dogmatic approach to your sources. You treat the books you have read with the same fundamentalist zeal that many of our other posters approach the bible. It's like your own form of inerrantism. Even Dr. Clark noted it in his response to you when he noted that you put far too much faith in the dating that was assigned, etc.

Metallurgy requires some advanced pyro-technology. This same pyro-technology is utilized in pottery manufacture. We can see from the pottery that ancient Mesoamericans did *not* have this technology during the specified time period.

Regarding the dogmatic "innerantism". (lol!)

When every single scholar I've read agrees with certain basic conclusions about ancient Mesoamerica, I think it's safe to trust that this is a conclusion based on a great deal of supporting evidence - such as the lack of smelting technology during the specified time period. This does not mean that every statement a scholar makes is just as well supported. There are disagreements over interpretations and theories. One can learn to tell the difference between assertions that remain fairly speculative and those that are well founded in evidence and universally accepted among the experts. That is not dogma. That is common sense. This does not mean, of course, that new discoveries may not upend the previously held beliefs. But when evidence reaches a point that results in nearly categoric agreement between experts on certain points, then the evidence that could upend that same agreement will have to be stunning and overwhelming. And believe me, it won't be in the form of sorenson's misleading dead-end references.

beastie, either you don't read well, or you deliberately misstate other's positions. In the future, if you want to quote me, please use the quote function and not your interpretation of what you think I meant. I don't appreciate the loose ways in which you take other's words to bolster your own argument.

I'm sure it's that I don't read well. You've pointed that out to me many times.

If my horrific reading abilities have resulted in a distortion of your statement, feel free to make corrections, rather than just point out my obvious inadequacies.

[charity]

beastie, I hate to have to go back through threads, pull out posts just to show you what you did. This is what you said about what I said.

Unless, as charity seems to suggest, God just intervened and taught Nephi how do to things that just happened to be exactly how native Mesoamericans were already doing things (and hence, could have taught Nephi rather than vice versa)

However, this is what I actually said, "beastie, Nephi was not limited in nstructing his people in how to do things he already knew how to do from his previous life in the Old World. Remember, he built a ship without ever having built one before. There is certainly precedent for God instructing him in how to do something that would not have been a previously acquired skill."

Now, where in that is anything about God teaching him to do something that native Mesoamericans were already doing? I never said anything about that.

Your leaps about the topic are breathtaking in their audacity.

[beastie]

Now, where in that is anything about God teaching him to do something that native Mesoamericans were already doing? I never said anything about that.

Your leaps about the topic are breathtaking in their audacity.

Oh, I see.

The problem is that if you assert Nephi taught them some skill (either Old World or divinely given) that didn't already exist in Mesoamerica, then you have to provide some evidence of that. Just what is that evidence?

[charity]

beastie, you did it again. Where in my post is there anything asserted? You really ought to use your dictionary and look up the difference between could and did.

[Confidential Informant]

Charity,

As much as I disagree with Beastie, I find your insistent babbling on any and every topic much more distracting and distasteful.

Please back off.

C.I.

[charity]

c.i., I don't know what the burr under your saddle is with regards to me. Of the 27 topics on the front page, I have participated in 7 of them. My posting number for the day is not the highest, and I am within tenths of a percentage point of most of the posters who have fewer than I do today.

If you are so grieviously aggravated, please put me on your ignore list. You seem to be very senstive. About what I haven't a clue.

[Confidential Informant]

You seem to be very senstive. About what I haven't a clue.

Mainly that 9 of 10 times you don't have the slights clue as to what you are talking about yet seem to have an opinion on EVERYTHING.

C.I.