Olmec-influenced City Found In Mexico

[beastie]

Haven't you read my posts? I'm trying to be very patient.

As for the rest....

Why in the world would you imagine I am NOT discussing the ORIGIN of these people?

I'm not questioning that people existed in either Mesoamerica or Canaan. Of course we're talking about where these people came from.

Your response made absolutely no sense, but rather than admit you goofed, just as you did earlier with your "caught you!" citation, you pretend I'm beating a dead horse.

[beastie]

Deanne Matheny already demonstrated the problematic nature of Sorenson's list of items he believes demonstrate early metallurgy.

(re this footnote:

2 John L. Sorenson, "Digging into the Book of Mormon: Our Changing Understanding of Ancient America and Its Scripture," Ensign (September 1984), 34-35.)

The items were either clearly traded from areas outside Meoamerica, or were misdated by Sorenson.

[charity]

beastie, beastie, beastie, I quoted from the Meridian article, and you cut and pasted it back to me, obviously without reading. "Peruvians began metallurgy as early as 2000 B.C., and since it is generally accepted that Peru and Mesoamerica were in contact by trading, it seems reasonable that this knowledge was passed on to Mesoamerican peoples. This is especially apparent since at least a dozen pieces of metal have been found in Mesoamerica dating to before 900 AD.2"

This my last post to you on this topic. It is clear that you don't see what you don't want to see.

[beastie]

BTW, I will be back at work tomorrow, so I will take longer to respond to future posts, or will have a dose of good sense and give up.

beastie, beastie, beastie, I quoted from the Meridian article, and you cut and pasted it back to me, obviously without reading. "Peruvians began metallurgy as early as 2000 B.C., and since it is generally accepted that Peru and Mesoamerica were in contact by trading, it seems reasonable that this knowledge was passed on to Mesoamerican peoples. This is especially apparent since at least a dozen pieces of metal have been found in Mesoamerica dating to before 900 AD.2"

This my last post to you on this topic. It is clear that you don't see what you don't want to see.

Charity,

it seems reasonable is not evidence of metallurgy. If this knowledge had been passed on to Mesoamericans, there would be evidence of it.

There is not, prior to around 800 AD.

[Fortigurn]

beastie, beastie, beastie, I quoted from the Meridian article, and you cut and pasted it back to me, obviously without reading. "Peruvians began metallurgy as early as 2000 B.C., and since it is generally accepted that Peru and Mesoamerica were in contact by trading, it seems reasonable that this knowledge was passed on to Mesoamerican peoples. This is especially apparent since at least a dozen pieces of metal have been found in Mesoamerica dating to before 900 AD.2"

This my last post to you on this topic. It is clear that you don't see what you don't want to see.

The problem is that this doesn't prove that the knowledge of how to make the artefacts was passed on, though the artefacts themselves may have been traded. You're just not providing the evidence you claim.

[charity]

fortugurn, how many times has beastie used the phrase "It is reasonable to assume" in this topic. It is reasonable to assume that if the Lehites had knowledge of metallury, as per Nephi forging tools, then they would have made hard fired pots. Her own argument. But I guess she can use it, and no one else can.Is that the rule?

[owl]

"Well yes, but this doesn't mean that everywhere water and oxygen are present in soil that metals will disintegrate to nothing (leaving not even trace elements). Nor does it mean that every place you have soil, you have conditions in which metals will disintegrate to such an extent.

"It has been shown here very clearly that it is possible for metals to survive for thousands of years in wet soil, or even in salt water. It has not yet been shown that this is impossible in Meso-America."

Obviously nothing corrodes to the point that the elements do not still exist. However, although bronze will survive for hundreds or even thousands of years, iron usually does not because it tends to expand flaking off and allowing the corrosive agents access to the metal underneath the layers of corrosion. Even in desert areas soil between the surface and the water table (the zone of aeration) contains both oxygen and moisture. In addition desert soil contains salts which may make rusting even more rapid.

I must admit though that iron artifacts can be preserved under the right conditions because they are being found. I believe that as I write, others will be posting examples of ancient (BC) references to iron and steel implements, and of finds of artifacts. I found three such references in the first page of my Google search. Iron artifacts dated as early as 1500 BC have been discovered in the near east. Such pre-christian iron artifacts are also being found in the western hemisphere.

However as a chemist, it is hard for me to believe that these artifacts survived while buried in the soil.

[beastie]

fortugurn, how many times has beastie used the phrase "It is reasonable to assume" in this topic. It is reasonable to assume that if the Lehites had knowledge of metallury, as per Nephi forging tools, then they would have made hard fired pots. Her own argument. But I guess she can use it, and no one else can.Is that the rule?

LOL!!! I've used it in regards to whether or not Nephi knew how to make pots. He knew how to smelt metal, so he knew how to control the heat was required. He taught his people many other basic skills, such as house-building. So it is reasonable to assume he knew how to make pots? I think so, but I also explicitly stated, over and over, that I was fine with forgetting about pots and using all the other material traditions that the text did explicitly assign to Nephi.

You're comparing that to claiming that evidence for metallurgy exists because a BoM apologists said "it is reasonable" to assume the Mesoamericans obtained the knowledge of metallurgy far earlier than the evidence indicates???

I've already shown you that archaeologists can, and have, find evidence of metallurgy in Mesoamerica - just hundreds of years to late. But "it's reasonable to assume" becomes evidence in this thread.

Now that is a good note on which to retire for the night. It kind of sums up the entire debate.

[Fortigurn]

fortugurn, how many times has beastie used the phrase "It is reasonable to assume" in this topic.

I have only seen her use it of assumptions which are in fact reasonable.

It is reasonable to assume that if the Lehites had knowledge of metallury, as per Nephi forging tools, then they would have made hard fired pots. Her own argument. But I guess she can use it, and no one else can.Is that the rule?

I won't stop to check the wording, but even as it stands that is entirely reasonable. Metal tool forging does require hard fired pots, or else metal bowls or basis with a higher melting temperature than the molten metal which they contain.

When you're fooling around with molten metal, you need containers which can actually hold molten metal. In the Ancient Near East, hard fired pots were used for this purpose. It would be reasonable to draw the conclusion that the Nephites (if they had this technology, and came from the Ancient Near East), would use this method.

Otherwise, how do you suggest they manipulated molten metal?

[juliann]

Why in the world would you imagine I am NOT discussing the ORIGIN of these people?

Cause whenever you step away from copying pages of books and try to make sense of it you say stuff like this...

Groups that migrate to areas quite different than their homeland still manage to retain enough traditions from their homeland that archaeologists can detect their presence.

Now if they retained traditions from their homeland that would be detected, too! And then those scholars would know where they came from. Their origins? Get it? They would know where those proto-Isrealites came from and origins wouldn't be an issue and Dever wouldn't be calling everybody else names. I'm still trying to be patient!

it seems reasonable is not evidence of metallurgy. If this knowledge had been passed on to Mesoamericans, there would be evidence of it.

This is a classic.

[Calm]

They exaggerate and they relate what they want to in the way that resonates with the culture they are in.

The similarity between Nephi's list of what he gives his people and the descriptions of what 'founders' (the ultimate claimed ancestor of a group; for example, Romulus is claimed to have created the Roman legion and senate) of various ethnic groups have done for them has always struck me. Even in the Bible you have the lists of the tribal leaders inventing various conveniences.

I am not saying that Nephi didn't do this, just that the description of it seems ritualized to a great deal to me.

---

On another note, 'technology' is not always material. There can be better ways of doing things that may not leave a particular trace in the ground. Some sort of trading, economic, education, or social practice that may improve the lifestyle of a group without doing much to change what happens in the ground. I am not sure how one can even discuss this kind of stuff, but the thought occurred to me after discussing some things with my husband that he is teaching his students that the only real evidence if they used these methods would be a saving of time and money and a long term better business....but nothing would really point to those methods as what made the significant difference because it's pretty much all mental approaches.

Nephi's people were traders. If they brought with them and shared with the people they joined some sort of trading practice (let people buy on credit? I don't know enough about business of that day to hazard a reasonable guess), what would be result besides an increase of prosperity? Something that is indicated in the text as well.

Just so no one thinks I am using this as an out for 'solid' evidence, I'm actually just wanting some input from Brant if he's still around (or someone else who knows the methodology) about how one would go about exploring this kind of transfer of ideas in any type of culture. Is it possible or is this just something that must be left to those who based speculations on personal pet theories?

[juliann]

Just so no one thinks I am using this as an out for 'solid' evidence, I'm actually just wanting some input from Brant if he's still around (or someone else who knows the methodology) about how one would go about exploring this kind of transfer of ideas in any type of culture. Is it possible or is this just something that must be left to those who based speculations on personal pet theories?

This deals with Columbian metallurgy but recognizes what you are saying as an impediment to further understanding. But I don't think understanding is what the countermos are looking for.

http://www.doaks.org/GoldandPower/GoldandPower06.pdf

Whatever improvement in the research on Pre-Columbian metal objects there has been, further progress will be limited if it is not aimed at understanding the way societies function and change (Lechtman 1984).

[beastie]

Now if they retained traditions from their homeland that would be detected, too! And then those scholars would know where they came from. Their origins? Get it? They would know where those proto-Isrealites came from and origins wouldn't be an issue and Dever wouldn't be calling everybody else names. I'm still trying to be patient!

Dever doesn't call "everybody else" names. He attacks postmodernists who claim that there is NO historical backing whatsoever in the Bible, that it was all a late construct (he dismantles that assertion in

what did the Biblical Writers Know and When Did they Know It) and fundamentalists who insist that, despite the fact there is no archaeological evidence to support it, all of the Bible recites actual history.

Here's his statement about the origin of the ancient Israelites from the book Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did they Come from?

In discussing the books of Exodus and Numbers, which is the point of interest for this discussion because it presents a story of a group of people migrating from one area to another, for which archaeologists attempted to find evidence:

There is little that we can salvage from Joshuaâ??s stories of the rapid, wholesale destruction of Canaanite cities and the annihilation of the local population. It simply did not happen: the archaeological evidence is indisputable. It is conceivable that there was a military chieftain and folk hero named Joshua, who won a few skirmishes here and there. But there simply was no Israelite conquest of most of Canaan, Mendhenhall was right about that forty years ago, as were Continental biblical scholars even earlier. Most of those who came to call themselves Israelites, and were so designated by the contemporary Egyptians, were or had been indigenous Canaanites. There was no wholesale conquest, no need for it. (P 228)

[beastie]

cal,

You can read some of Brant's speculations on the meridian article I linked a page of two back. He's not defending those speculations here, but he did make them.

[Not quite me]

This deals with Columbian metallurgy but recognizes what you are saying as an impediment to further understanding. But I don't think understanding is what the countermos are looking for.

http://www.doaks.org/GoldandPower/GoldandPower06.pdf

At first I thought, great, Juliann is adding something valuable to the discussion: an article to read. And then you have to include a swipe against the motives of us "countermos." Believe it or not, some of us actually are interested in understanding. Leave the broad brush at home, or at least qualify your statements.

[Not quite me]

This deals with Columbian metallurgy but recognizes what you are saying as an impediment to further understanding. But I don't think understanding is what the countermos are looking for.

http://www.doaks.org/GoldandPower/GoldandPower06.pdf

Interesting article, but it makes no mention of smelting or pyrotechnology, which are the topics at hand, really.

[Calm]

cal,

You can read some of Brant's speculations on the meridian article I linked a page of two back. He's not defending those speculations here, but he did make them.

Is it methodology or speculation? I am more interested in methodology as a general approach.

Add-on: I see it is the link to his FAIR conference presentation. Having been there for that and others, I am quite familiar with that particular material.

[Calm]

Interesting article, but it makes no mention of smelting or pyrotechnology, which are the topics at hand, really.

Since it was in response to a question of mine that had nothing to do with smelting or pyrotechnology and was really off topic, then that is hardly a surprise.

[Not quite me]

Since it was in response to a question of mine that had nothing to do with smelting or pyrotechnology and was really off topic, then that is hardly a surprise.

I wasn't criticizing you. I just thought it was interesting that Juliann suggested that we "countermos" wouldn't read it because we aren't interested in understanding. I read it, and as you said, it was related to something you brought up.

[Calm]

I wasn't criticizing you. I just thought it was interesting that Juliann suggested that we "countermos" wouldn't read it because we aren't interested in understanding. I read it, and as you said, it was related to something you brought up.

WHAT! You're a countermo? When did this happen?

[Not quite me]

WHAT! You're a countermo? When did this happen?

About 18 months ago.

[Calm]

About 18 months ago.

Nobody tells me nothing.

(okay, that pirate smilie has nothing to do with anything here, but my daughter likes pirates, so....)

(she also likes ninjas...did you know that ninjas and pirates are archenemies going back centuries to....oops, that's really off topic)

[Not quite me]

Nobody tells me nothing.

(okay, that pirate smilie has nothing to do with anything here, but my daughter likes pirates, so....)

(she also likes ninjas...did you know that ninjas and pirates are archenemies going back centuries to....oops, that's really off topic)

Yeah, I know. I'd been a countermo for several months before someone told me I was. In fact, they said I was one of the "nastier" ones. It made me blush.

[beastie]

Aside from whether or not NQM is a "counter-mo", Juliann's swipe wasn't even applicable to ANYONE on this thread. Frankly, I am quite irritated with her. She makes snide one liners, accuses me of botching statements and then refuses to back her accusation up, and consistently pretends that the "counter-mos" aren't interested in actual research. It irritates me because I have gone out of my way to educate myself on ancient Mesoamerica and LGT apologetics. The number of believers who have done as much on this board could likely be counted on one hand, and they should have far more of an incentive to do so than I do.

Again, Brant's article:

http://www.meridianmagazine.com/sci_rel/030731fair.html

In his article, Brant tries to address the problem of the value of gold/silver, and social stratification, particularly as manifested by clothing. He correctly notes that gold and silver had no intrinsic value in Mesoamerica at this time period, and it is illogical to presume a small hamlett would differentiate in clothing. So he speculates that Nephi taught his people a skill that enhanced their trading power.

There is a condition, however, that explains all of Jacob's economic problems. That condition is trade. As will be noted, not just any trade, but trade in Mesoamerica at this particular point in time. As noted for the coastal region of Guatemala, there were others in the land when the Lehites arrived, and archaeology tells us that there are other populations and cities in the general land when the Nephites arrive at the location of their city, presumed to have been in the Guatemalan highlands. If we assume that the gold and silver were being worked, using metalworking skills Nephi could have taught them, then these worked goods would have exchange value with other cities, and the resulting importation of goods creates a situation where those engaged in the trade accumulate more unique prestige goods than those who do not trade outside of their own city. Thus trade provides precisely the conditions Jacob is combating.

The problem is that there is no evidence that Kaminaljuyu, or any other Mesoamerican polity, was trading gold and silver to some polity that valued it at that time period. And Brant uses the term "metalworking skills" Nephi had. Any metal working skill that Nephi could have taught them would have been metallurgy, which Nephi clearly knew. You can't avoid that, it's in the BoM. In addition, there are Nephi artifacts that various witnesses testified to seeing and handling. This is why metallurgy is such a crucial sticking point (or, as brant called it, my "hobby horse", although I would clarify it is just one of several regarding the BoM in Mesoamerica).

But aside from that there's only so much interpretation you can do with the text (note that it seems to me that so far Cal is the only one who has apparently learned the lesson of LGT - don't try to find the BoM in Mesoamerica, look for Mesoamerica in the BoM).

Look again at the passages I cited:

2 Nephi 5

13 And it came to pass that we began to prosper exceedingly, and to multiply in the land.

14 And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us; for I knew their hatred towards me and my children and those who were called my people.

15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomonâ??s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.

17 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did cause my people to be industrious, and to labor with their hands.

The bolded sections are quite specific (with the exception of verse 17 which is still specific in that it means manual labor).

And, of course, the earlier passage which clearly demonstrates Nephi knew metallurgy:

Nephi 17

10 And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools.

11 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make a bellows wherewith to blow the fire, of the skins of beasts; and after I had made a bellows, that I might have wherewith to blow the fire, I did smite two stones together that I might make fire.

These verses don't leave you much wiggle room. People want to insist he didn't know how to make a pot - fine. But clearly he taught them to build buildings. So where is the archaeological evidence of buildings being made after the manner of the Old World? And, of course, once again we face the metallurgy problem in the long list of metals, some of which can only be produced through metallurgy.

So while perhaps Nephi taught them other things that don't leave a trace in the ground, the text clearly states that he did, indeed, teach them quite a few things that are exactly the type of things archaeologists look for.

[Not quite me]

Aside from whether or not NQM is a "counter-mo", Juliann's swipe wasn't even applicable to ANYONE on this thread. Frankly, I am quite irritated with her. She makes snide one liners, accuses me of botching statements and then refuses to back her accusation up, and consistently pretends that the "counter-mos" aren't interested in actual research. It irritates me because I have gone out of my way to educate myself on ancient Mesoamerica and LGT apologetics. The number of believers who have done as much on this board could likely be counted on one hand, and they should have far more of an incentive to do so than I do.

Again, Brant's article:

http://www.meridianmagazine.com/sci_rel/030731fair.html

In his article, Brant tries to address the problem of the value of gold/silver, and social stratification, particularly as manifested by clothing. He correctly notes that gold and silver had no intrinsic value in Mesoamerica at this time period, and it is illogical to presume a small hamlett would differentiate in clothing. So he speculates that Nephi taught his people a skill that enhanced their trading power.

The problem is that there is no evidence that Kaminaljuyu, or any other Mesoamerican polity, was trading gold and silver to some polity that valued it at that time period. And Brant uses the term "metalworking skills" Nephi had. Any metal working skill that Nephi could have taught them would have been metallurgy, which Nephi clearly knew. You can't avoid that, it's in the BoM. In addition, there are Nephi artifacts that various witnesses testified to seeing and handling. This is why metallurgy is such a crucial sticking point (or, as brant called it, my "hobby horse", although I would clarify it is just one of several regarding the BoM in Mesoamerica).

But aside from that there's only so much interpretation you can do with the text (note that it seems to me that so far Cal is the only one who has apparently learned the lesson of LGT - don't try to find the BoM in Mesoamerica, look for Mesoamerica in the BoM).

Look again at the passages I cited:

2 Nephi 5

13 And it came to pass that we began to prosper exceedingly, and to multiply in the land.

14 And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us; for I knew their hatred towards me and my children and those who were called my people.

15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomonâ??s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.

17 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did cause my people to be industrious, and to labor with their hands.

The bolded sections are quite specific (with the exception of verse 17 which is still specific in that it means manual labor).

And, of course, the earlier passage which clearly demonstrates Nephi knew metallurgy:

Nephi 17

10 And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools.

11 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make a bellows wherewith to blow the fire, of the skins of beasts; and after I had made a bellows, that I might have wherewith to blow the fire, I did smite two stones together that I might make fire.

These verses don't leave you much wiggle room. People want to insist he didn't know how to make a pot - fine. But clearly he taught them to build buildings. So where is the archaeological evidence of buildings being made after the manner of the Old World? And, of course, once again we face the metallurgy problem in the long list of metals, some of which can only be produced through metallurgy.

So while perhaps Nephi taught them other things that don't leave a trace in the ground, the text clearly states that he did, indeed, teach them quite a few things that are exactly the type of things archaeologists look for.

That's why this thread has been particularly frustrating to read. The twists and turns away from these rather obvious points have been breathtaking. Add in the sneering one-liners, and it's even less fun.