Why Doesn't God Heal Amputees?

[koakaipo]

If this is meant to imply that the question 'Why does it appear that - up until now - God hasn't healed any amputees?' is meant to not leave any 'room for mystery and possibilities', then that assumption is truly in the eye of the beholder, and is an assumption of theistic world-views.

...there is still plenty of room for 'mystery and possibilities' in the athiestic world-view. A God is not required for that...

HI renegade---I was trying to speak generally in that respect actually. I have faith in God, but my faith is and probably always will be accompanied by doubt. In that doubt there are possibilites contrary to my belief in God. I think that is the reality for many people of faith really. My thoughts are less about there is a God or there isn't a God, but more about how the older I get, the more I experience---especially in different cultural contexts that sorta flip my own world view on it's head in some ways---the less I am certain about.

I personally have found those possibilities to inform my faith in a less clean cut but ultimately more indepth way. That doesn't mean anything beyond myself though, and I accept that. I just found the certainty on both sides of this thread striking though. And I find it striking how similar one's own cosomology or world view ends up being treated as ultimate truth. As for hte broader philosophical applications-too early in the morning for me, and that goes doubly for a non-coffee drinking Mormon such as myself who is about to go sing with the Wiggles with my toddler!

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

koakaipo,

Good answer! I totally respect your position...

As for hte broader philosophical applications - too early in the morning for me, and that goes doubly for a non-coffee drinking Mormon such as myself who is about to go sing with the Wiggles with my toddler!

..sing with the Wiggles?!

I'll contemplate what that could mean over a coffee

As in he has been dead for along time and already stinketh?

Harder---and never happened.

I'd also add that - imo - it's easier to come across what could look like a miraculous 'resurrection' than it could to come across what could look like a miraculous 'limb regeneration'.

Mainly for two reasons:

* We've been routinely been bringing people back from death (technically) for a while now. Certainly for longer, and with more frequenency, than we've ever been managing to re-attach severed limbs...

* I think it's easier to mistake a 'death' than it is to mistake a 'severed limb'

[cacheman]

I have faith in God, but my faith is and probably always will be accompanied by doubt. In that doubt there are possibilites contrary to my belief in God. I think that is the reality for many people of faith really. My thoughts are less about there is a God or there isn't a God, but more about how the older I get, the more I experience---especially in different cultural contexts that sorta flip my own world view on it's head in some ways---the less I am certain about.

I personally have found those possibilities to inform my faith in a less clean cut but ultimately more indepth way. That doesn't mean anything beyond myself though, and I accept that. I just found the certainty on both sides of this thread striking though. And I find it striking how similar one's own cosomology or world view ends up being treated as ultimate truth.

As an unbeliever in God (as generally defined by most theists), I can certainly understand your way of thinking here. This post is actually quite refreshing in a thread like this. I enjoy thinking about questions like this one, but the clearest message that I get out of a thread like this is that with a certainty of belief there can come the feeling that one can judge the character, intellect, or state of mind, of those who believe differently or even those simply using different methods of seeking truth.

cacheman

[Son]

As in he has been dead for along time and already stinketh?

Harder---and never happened.

Yes, and so sure are you?

[Tarski]

Yes, and so sure are you?

Pretty sure. No evidence + common sense.

Pigs may have sprouted wings and taken to the air at one point in history. No? Are you sure?

[Sethbag]

Son, do you believe in the Teapot that is orbiting the Sun? Are you sure there isn't one? If so, how?

Yes, I blatantly ripped of Dawkins on this one. Anyhow, there are literally an infinite number of things whose existence we cannot prove nor disprove, and yet there isn't a shred of reason to believe any of them actually exist. I can be "sure" they don't exist without having to prove it. In my case, I'm sure there's no teapot, but open to being wrong if someday one should be discovered.

As far as God restoring severed limbs, I see no reason to believe this has ever happened, until and unless someone can actually document a credible instance of it. Until then, "he might have and we just don't know it" sounds an awful lot like belief in that teapot.

[Hammer]

This falls under the category of "cancer remission."

Reattaching recently lost limbs or digits is a routine surgical process and there is no evidence it requires divine intervention.

Not really. I know a guy who had his foot crushed by being run over by a hugh ground mover. When he was at the hospital they were in the process of preping him for surgery. The elders were called and gave him a blessing that he would not lose the foot and that it would be completely healed.

The doctors were in the room as were some nurses and the elders. They all watched as the foot regained its form and was made whole. That isn't remission, that is major reconstruction.

[Tchild2]

Not really. I know a guy who had his foot crushed by being run over by a hugh ground mover. When he was at the hospital they were in the process of preping him for surgery. The elders were called and gave him a blessing that he would not lose the foot and that it would be completely healed.

The doctors were in the room as were some nurses and the elders. They all watched as the foot regained its form and was made whole. That isn't remission, that is major reconstruction.

Notice how the "miracle" happened in a modern day surgury room? Isn't it telling that the Elders took second fiddle to the more obvious, logical and wholly rational choice of heading straight to a hospital? Apparently, most people prefer the aid of failing and imperfect persons (doctors, nurses) over an all powerful God that they profess to believe in, worship and dedicate their life to.

[Doctor Steuss]

Notice how the "miracle" happened in a modern day surgury room? Isn't it telling that the Elders took second fiddle to the more obvious, logical and wholly rational choice of heading straight to a hospital? Apparently, most people prefer the aid of failing and imperfect persons (doctors, nurses) over an all powerful God that they profess to believe in, worship and dedicate their life to.

He's a busy guy, what with the entire cosmos to govern and all. No need to consult an architect when you're playing with Legos.

[Doctor Steuss]

Not really. I know a guy who had his foot crushed by being run over by a hugh ground mover. When he was at the hospital they were in the process of preping him for surgery. The elders were called and gave him a blessing that he would not lose the foot and that it would be completely healed.

The doctors were in the room as were some nurses and the elders. They all watched as the foot regained its form and was made whole. That isn't remission, that is major reconstruction.

Itâ??s interesting that this is reconstruction in lieu of regeneration. I wonder if an amputee still had the limb available (as in a case of accidental amputation: i.e. factory accident), if it could be reattached via a healing from G-d.

Maybe this has already been covered, but did Christ re-grow the ear of the soldier, or reattach it?

[Sethbag]

Not really. I know a guy who had his foot crushed by being run over by a hugh ground mover. When he was at the hospital they were in the process of preping him for surgery. The elders were called and gave him a blessing that he would not lose the foot and that it would be completely healed.

The doctors were in the room as were some nurses and the elders. They all watched as the foot regained its form and was made whole. That isn't remission, that is major reconstruction.

Now we're getting somewhere! It's not exactly a severed limb, as asked, but hey, get some before and after x-rays and I think we'll have a pretty good start.

[Zakuska]

Itâ??s interesting that this is reconstruction in lieu of regeneration. I wonder if an amputee still had the limb available (as in a case of accidental amputation: i.e. factory accident), if it could be reattached via a healing from G-d.

Maybe this has already been covered, but did Christ re-grow the ear of the soldier, or reattach it?

I'm not sure if the text is detailed enough to make that known. All we are told is that he heeled his ear.

Maybe he used his dermal regeneration ray.

[Zakuska]

Son, do you believe in the Teapot that is orbiting the Sun? Are you sure there isn't one? If so, how?

Yes, I blatantly ripped of Dawkins on this one. Anyhow, there are literally an infinite number of things whose existence we cannot prove nor disprove, and yet there isn't a shred of reason to believe any of them actually exist. I can be "sure" they don't exist without having to prove it. In my case, I'm sure there's no teapot, but open to being wrong if someday one should be discovered.

As far as God restoring severed limbs, I see no reason to believe this has ever happened, until and unless someone can actually document a credible instance of it. Until then, "he might have and we just don't know it" sounds an awful lot like belief in that teapot.

Well lets see... when did the First English Astronauts make it into space?

Sure enough... there is a teapot orbiting the son.

[Noggin]

Not really. I know a guy who had his foot crushed by being run over by a hugh ground mover. When he was at the hospital they were in the process of preping him for surgery. The elders were called and gave him a blessing that he would not lose the foot and that it would be completely healed.

The doctors were in the room as were some nurses and the elders. They all watched as the foot regained its form and was made whole. That isn't remission, that is major reconstruction.

"I know guy who..."

oh air it out already! whooooweee stinky stuff there!

Give me a break, Hammer. Come on. Let's you and I both waltz on over to JAMA and find the write up of this incredible multi witness miracle. Shall we? The Journal of American Medicine surely has got pages dedicated to this miracle, no? What's that? The pages are empty? Come again? A major multi witness miracle occurs and the only people to hear about it are the friends of the friend of the friend's uncle's neighbor?

And then after we sashe on down the halls of JAMA proof, let's go buy a back issue of USA Today and People Magazine where the story was told for the masses. You recall the guy stuck in the Narrows two years ago who sawed his arm off with a Leatherman pocket knife, don't you? No miracle there and he even made it to a Saturday Night Live spoof on his traumatic ordeal.

I implore you to air it out, man. You totally made that miracle up. I thought shady posting technique like that was beneath you. Please tell me you are more skeptical than this. Give me the home town that this happened in... I'll go do the research for you. Surely it made the papers, no?

Noggin

[Terran]

Since you asked, you must now read!

Reference 1

Reference 2

And heres an opinion piece just for fun: There is no god and you know it---Sam Harris

I believe there is a God and I strive to be a faithful Latter-Day Saint and I support the brethren and believe the scriptures. It might surprise you that I agree with some of the ideas presented in "There Is No God and You Know It." The idea that I suport is that I believe that "believers," in and out of the church, attribute much more to God than is actually the reality. I hear many times people say such things like everything lined up properly so they could buy this house or do this thing or that and that they know it was God doing those things. It's my belief that God leaves us much more on our own, for our own good and growth, than many people understand. Yes, I believe God does move after we've done all that we can do, but I don't like atributing what I would consider trivial things to God. I'm not saying God doesn't move in those ways, I just believe He will rarely get involved in trivial matters and in things that we can do for ourselves.

[SleepingWillow]

Not really. I know a guy who had his foot crushed by being run over by a hugh ground mover. When he was at the hospital they were in the process of preping him for surgery. The elders were called and gave him a blessing that he would not lose the foot and that it would be completely healed.

The doctors were in the room as were some nurses and the elders. They all watched as the foot regained its form and was made whole. That isn't remission, that is major reconstruction.

That's not miraculous. Some people who have crushed limbs don't end up losing them, blessing or no blessing. I met an atheist friend who had his leg run over by a forklift and he managed to keep it.

EDIT: The way you describe it, it's like they all stood in the room and watched as within seconds the foot went from mangled to good-as-new. That's not how it happened, is it?

[Pahoran]

That's not miraculous. Some people who have crushed limbs don't end up losing them, blessing or no blessing. I met an atheist friend who had his leg run over by a forklift and he managed to keep it.

EDIT: The way you describe it, it's like they all stood in the room and watched as within seconds the foot went from mangled to good-as-new. That's not how it happened, is it?

So, Mr. sign seeker, when you asked for examples of such healings, was it because you expected none to be forthcoming, or was it with the intent of ridiculing them?

Did you intend in advance to act as Jesus described in Matthew 7:6, or are you simply reverting to type when you do so?

This thread has generated a lot more heat than light; probably as you intended. The fact that you have not at any time posted in good faith is manifest from the subtitle of the thread: "serious question."

Yeah, right. Like anyone fell for that.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Noggin]

Come on Hammer, give up the home town where this miracle happened. I will trade with you. Go look up Monterey Herald (my newspaper) and see the "christmas miracle" plastered all over the front page of my newspaper this very morning.

source:

http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/monterey...al/16272140.htm

Behold the Soledad maple tree, where hundreds of believers are being drawn to contemplate the image of the Virgin Mary, the mother of God in the Catholic tradition, cast on its trunk with the help of light and shadows.

Word has spread fast in this growing town that the Madonna has appeared on a 50-year-old tree on Ticino Street, and hundreds are flocking to see the image, to pray or to satisfy their curiosity.

Pretty pathetic, huh? But I have a point.

If a completely hokey and bogus "miracle" can make a front page in my town's newspaper, surely your foot regeneration miracle made it to at least the back page?

Please give me the home town, and since you "know this guy" why don't you give names of his doctors and nurses that witnessed this miracle.

I am totally calling you on the carpet. Look. I will even pay pal you $20 dollars if the source checks out and you have even one doctor or nurse who was in the room when the foot supposedly regenerated verify that this is indeed what happened. How is that for incentive. My bet is that you totally made this miracle up to try to (desperately) silence your critics.

I am good for my word, Hammer.

Noggin

***Post edited to insert the hokey image of the virgin mary "Christmas Miracle" that appeared recently in a town 20 miles away.

[Pahoran]

I am totally calling you on the carpet. Look. I will even pay pal you $20 dollars if the source checks out and you have even one doctor or nurse who was in the room when the foot supposedly regenerated verify that this is indeed what happened. How is that for incentive. My bet is that you totally made this miracle up to try to (desperately) silence your critics.

So you are calling him a liar. Got it.

Have you ever noticed that crooks always assume everyone else is crooked? That cynics always assume everyone else has an angle? And that anti-Mormons always assume everyone else is lying?

The reason for this is simple: it's because, as someone else used to have in their tagline, we don't see others as they are, we see them as we are. You assume that Hammer is exactly as honest as you; since you aren't above fabricating evidence to win an argument, you conclude that he must not be either, right?

There is no reason for anyone to have "totally made this miracle up." Miraculous healings happen, and the the first thought in the minds of the participants is generally not "I'll just nip out and call a reporter."

Regards,

Pahoran

[SleepingWillow]

So, Mr. sign seeker, when you asked for examples of such healings, was it because you expected none to be forthcoming, or was it with the intent of ridiculing them?

Did you intend in advance to act as Jesus described in Matthew 7:6, or are you simply reverting to type when you do so?

This thread has generated a lot more heat than light; probably as you intended. The fact that you have not at any time posted in good faith is manifest from the subtitle of the thread: "serious question."

Yeah, right. Like anyone fell for that.

Regards,

Pahoran

I misread what Hammer said. At first I thought he was talking about a gradual healing of a crushed limb. It is clear from a more careful reading he is talking about an incredible miracle with multiple witnesses. Noggin is on the right track and has even offered money for verification. Us atheists are so eager for truth that we'll actually pay theists to provide evidence of their claims.

As for whether this thread is generating light or heat, I think it is very illuminating.

[Noggin]

I misread what Hammer said. At first I thought he was talking about a gradual healing of a crushed limb. It is clear from a more careful reading he is talking about an incredible miracle with multiple witnesses. Noggin is on the right track and has even offered money for verification. Us atheists are so eager for truth that we'll actually pay theists to provide evidence of their claims.

As for whether this thread is generating light or heat, I think it is very illuminating.

Dang STRAIGHT!! Bring out the refs Hammer, bring it OUT!! I have a hunch that Hammer will conveniently be absent for awhile until my challenge gets buried in the thread.

Noggin

[Noggin]

So you are calling him a liar. Got it.

Have you ever noticed that crooks always assume everyone else is crooked? That cynics always assume everyone else has an angle? And that anti-Mormons always assume everyone else is lying?

The reason for this is simple: it's because, as someone else used to have in their tagline, we don't see others as they are, we see them as we are. You assume that Hammer is exactly as honest as you; since you aren't above fabricating evidence to win an argument, you conclude that he must not be either, right?

There is no reason for anyone to have "totally made this miracle up." Miraculous healings happen, and the the first thought in the minds of the participants is generally not "I'll just nip out and call a reporter."

Regards,

Pahoran

Yes, I am calling him a liar. Because he is totally telling a huge whopper! Pahoran, do you really believe that feet balloon themselves back into proper proportions in operating rooms after being crushed by heavy equipment? Come on. It does not happen. Wake up from your fantasy land.

Miraculous healings do not now nor have they ever happened. Oh wait. Yes they do... but conveniently no one else is ever around for credibility's sake.

Noggin

[SleepingWillow]

So you are calling him a liar. Got it.

Have you ever noticed that crooks always assume everyone else is crooked? That cynics always assume everyone else has an angle? And that anti-Mormons always assume everyone else is lying?

Woohoo, some diversionary tactics, insults, and bent metaphors.

The reason for this is simple: it's because, as someone else used to have in their tagline, we don't see others as they are, we see them as we are. You assume that Hammer is exactly as honest as you; since you aren't above fabricating evidence to win an argument, you conclude that he must not be either, right?

He may be assuming the wrong thing. Fortunately, he put his money where his mouth is and is gonna have to pay up if he turns out to be wrong.

There is no reason for anyone to have "totally made this miracle up." Miraculous healings happen, and the the first thought in the minds of the participants is generally not "I'll just nip out and call a reporter."

People have no reason to make up miracles? You're kidding me, right? Here's a few off the top of my head: They are testimony-building, attention-grabbing, God-affirming, belief-confirming, whoppers made-up-to-keep-atheists-squirming.

[Tarski]

So you are calling him a liar. Got it.

So you think it happened just as he says? Do you think someone should be allowed to make such claims and no evidence provided? What would you call me if I said that Gordon B. Hinckely came to my ward when I was young and confided in me that he knew the church wasn't literally true but that it was good for people to believe anyway? Suppse I also say that there were multiple witnesses? Would you call me a liar or at least ask for proof of this amazing multi-witness event?

Then after calling me a liar should I use your little diddy and claim that it's only because crooks think everyone else is a crook?

Your post, like the previous few by you, is just useless.

[Noggin]

I should qualify:

Miraculous healings, that cannot be replicated in the natural course of random events, do not now nor have they ever happened.

Amputees do not regenerate arms legs and heads. Feet do not ballon themselves back into shape in hospital operating rooms.

Cancer patients and the like are all you believers have. Cancer remission is not a miracle. Cancer remission just naturally happens whether one believes in god or not. What next? Are you going to demand we believe in god because my car that doesn't work mysteriously worked this morning??

nevermind it was just a quirky short in a wire... but NOOOOOO, God be praised! My car worked this morning!

Come on.

Noggin