Why Doesn't God Heal Amputees?

[Pahoran]

Woohoo, some diversionary tactics, insults, and bent metaphors.

He may be assuming the wrong thing. Fortunately, he put his money where his mouth is and is gonna have to pay up if he turns out to be wrong.

Only if it's in the newspaper. Latter-day Saints don't usually publicise such things.

People have no reason to make up miracles? You're kidding me, right? Here's a few off the top of my head: They are testimony-building, attention-grabbing, God-affirming, belief-confirming, whoppers made-up-to-keep-atheists-squirming.

So you're calling him a liar too, right?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

So you think it happened just as he says?

I have no opinion one way or the other. Actually I am rather cautious about accepting such stories, but not because I assume that anyone has made anything up. I have had too much experience of hearsay, even from honest and otherwise credible sources, to automatically revert to assuming that anyone has to be lying.

Do you think someone should be allowed to make such claims and no evidence provided? What would you call me if I said that Gordon B. Hinckely came to my ward when I was young and confided in me that he knew the church wasn't literally true but that it was good for people to believe anyway?

In which case it would be your word against his. He's credible, you're not.

Note also that you have subtly shifted the goal posts. Hammer does not claim to have been present during the event.

Suppse I also say that there were multiple witnesses? Would you call me a liar or at least ask for proof of this amazing multi-witness event?

I would certainly ask for proof. I would not call you a liar, because that's against the forum rules.

But that's what you would be if you were to tell such a lie.

Then after calling me a liar should I use your little diddy and claim that it's only because crooks think everyone else is a crook?

You could try.

And I would counter that, unlike Noggin, Willow and your little self, I would not merely be assuming/projecting; I would have reached the only conclusion available on the evidence.

Your post, like the previous few by you, is just useless.

The admiration is mutual.

Regards,

Pahoran

[SleepingWillow]

Only if it's in the newspaper. Latter-day Saints don't usually publicise such things.

So something like this is too sacred to share with others, right? Baloney. If it actually happened, it would be all over the local newspaper.

So you're calling him a liar too, right?

I'm calling for references. Per the rules of this board, the onus is on Hammer (and you, since you are defending him), to provide proof of his spectacular claim.

[SleepingWillow]

One time when I was a little kid, my parents were driving me around Provo Canyon. Our car stopped and it wouldn't start again. So my parents said a prayer and after the prayer was over the car started again.

Miracle? I thought so, at the time, given my lens of theism. But recently my current car had trouble starting. If it failed to start, I would wait 2 minutes in silence. Miraculously, it seemed to start almost every time if I simply waited 2 minutes. I took it to the mechanic, he replaced the battery, and the whole problem was solved. If I had still been a strict theist/LDS, I might have said a prayer and then marveled when my car started again after my prayer was completed.

I think in our quest to attribute events to God, we overlook the obvious and not-so-obvious natural explanations.

[Hammer]

Dang STRAIGHT!! Bring out the refs Hammer, bring it OUT!! I have a hunch that Hammer will conveniently be absent for awhile until my challenge gets buried in the thread.

Noggin

Unlike some here---Hammer has a life out side this board--- Christmas is coming don't ya know?

It happened in Hawaii 30 + years ago-- I was the elder who pronounced the blessing. I witnessed the miracle-- the native members, one of which was the man healed, claimed I was another Mathew Calley. I was the instrument in several such blessings on the Island. Don't worry Bra, I can't come up with all the names, but if you request a special viewing of my life's experiences after this life--- maybe the Good Lord will see fit to let you see what wonders He does perform here.

My wife, many years later, had had a terrible fall where her hip, thigh bone and back were broken. She couldn't move and was in terrible pain. The paramedics in the ER told me they couldn't help me give her a blessing though they were LDS so I annointed and pronounced the blessing my self. In this blessing I told her that just like "john ---------" foot was brought together and healed, she would be healed also and that when the hospital took xrays they would not find anything broken. ( the strange thing is I could never remember this guys name and during the blessing his name came to me without effort.)

To the utter amazement of the paramedics who brought her in and had first hand witnessed the bone brakage, the xrays came back with nothing broken. They told the tech that they had the wrong xrays and go check again because they knew there were breaks they could actually feel and see.

LOL The tech stated out right that my wife was the only one whose xrays had been taken in the last hour and these were hers.

My wife who had to be put on a board to be brought in, WALKED out.

I never asked for proof of the miracles I heard about when I was young. I never doubted. I always believed and my life's experiences have bore it out.

The Lord Lives, He heals, He works according to our faith.

[charity]

D&C 59: 21 And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things, and obey not his commandments.

[Sethbag]

I've not called Hammer a liar at all. I'm just interested in seeing the before and after x-rays that show the extent of the original damage to the foot, and the extent to which this miraculous healing made the person whole. Then I can evaluate the claim.

A lot of people claim miracles that are dubious at best. That's why I want to see the x-rays. Surely, if they were going to operate on this guy's foot, they took x-rays, right? And surely, witnessing such a dramatic healing, and wanting to verify that the guy's foot indeed no longer required the surgery, there would have been post-miracle x-rays taken too, right? Well, let's see them.

I hate to sound cynical, but without the x-rays, this claim of a miracle kind of goes into the same category as the children who claim to have seen the Virgin Mary, and other such claims.

[Tarski]

One time when I was a little kid, my parents were driving me around Provo Canyon. Our car stopped and it wouldn't start again. So my parents said a prayer and after the prayer was over the car started again.

At 50 years old I have never seen a miracle better than that one. Several times various people got blessings for high fevers and stuff and they did get better after some rest and plenty of fluids. In short, I have never seen anything actually miraculous. Oh I have heard storied. Oh yes plenty. I even got to do a little detective work on a couple only to find the miracle diminished as the details came to light.

I have also caught otherwise repsectable religious folk making stuff up (a la Paul Dunn).

My conclusion is that while stories of miracles and visions abound, in truth, nothing out of the ordinary is really happening.

[Hammer]

One time when I was a little kid, my parents were driving me around Provo Canyon. Our car stopped and it wouldn't start again. So my parents said a prayer and after the prayer was over the car started again.

Miracle? I thought so, at the time, given my lens of theism. But recently my current car had trouble starting. If it failed to start, I would wait 2 minutes in silence. Miraculously, it seemed to start almost every time if I simply waited 2 minutes. I took it to the mechanic, he replaced the battery, and the whole problem was solved. If I had still been a strict theist/LDS, I might have said a prayer and then marveled when my car started again after my prayer was completed.

I think in our quest to attribute events to God, we overlook the obvious and not-so-obvious natural explanations.

LOL It doesn't hurt to spend those two minutes praising the Lord for the fact you even have a car, life, or anything else.

You might just get better than a car that has to wait two minutes to start.

[Tarski]

My wife, many years later, had had a terrible fall where her hip, thigh bone and back were broken. She couldn't move and was in terrible pain. The paramedics in the ER told me they couldn't help me give her a blessing though they were LDS so I annointed and pronounced the blessing my self. In this blessing I told her that just like "john ---------" foot was brought together and healed, she would be healed also and that when the hospital took xrays they would not find anything broken. (

Wow thats weird because I broke my finger a while back and so I had it X-rayed. But the X-rays showed it wasn't broken! I didn't even pray.

How do I know it was broken in the first place? Oh er um, er, .. well it was really bad-- I could hardly move it I tell ya and everyone said it was probably broken.

[Tchild2]

Unlike some here---Hammer has a life out side this board--- Christmas is coming don't ya know?

1162 posts and you joined in September of 2006. I am not calling you a liar, I just want proof of your "life outside of this board". Pictures of you skiing, at a family gathering, anything!

[SleepingWillow]

Unlike some here---Hammer has a life out side this board--- Christmas is coming don't ya know?

It happened in Hawaii 30 + years ago-- I was the elder who pronounced the blessing. I witnessed the miracle-- the native members, one of which was the man healed, claimed I was another Mathew Calley. I was the instrument in several such blessings on the Island. Don't worry Bra, I can't come up with all the names, but if you request a special viewing of my life's experiences after this life--- maybe the Good Lord will see fit to let you see what wonders He does perform here.

My wife, many years later, had had a terrible fall where her hip, thigh bone and back were broken. She couldn't move and was in terrible pain. The paramedics in the ER told me they couldn't help me give her a blessing though they were LDS so I annointed and pronounced the blessing my self. In this blessing I told her that just like "john ---------" foot was brought together and healed, she would be healed also and that when the hospital took xrays they would not find anything broken. ( the strange thing is I could never remember this guys name and during the blessing his name came to me without effort.)

To the utter amazement of the paramedics who brought her in and had first hand witnessed the bone brakage, the xrays came back with nothing broken. They told the tech that they had the wrong xrays and go check again because they knew there were breaks they could actually feel and see.

LOL The tech stated out right that my wife was the only one whose xrays had been taken in the last hour and these were hers.

My wife who had to be put on a board to be brought in, WALKED out.

I never asked for proof of the miracles I heard about when I was young. I never doubted. I always believed and my life's experiences have bore it out.

The Lord Lives, He heals, He works according to our faith.

That reminds me of this one time earlier this year I slipped on some ice on some concrete steps. I fell and hit my back so hard that I nearly threw up from the shock. I had to lie there in the snow for nearly half an hour because of the pain. I never saw a doctor or said a prayer, yet within a couple days I felt all better.

[johndoe]

That reminds me of this one time earlier this year I slipped on some ice on some concrete steps. I fell and hit my back so hard that I nearly threw up from the shock. I had to lie there in the snow for nearly half an hour because of the pain. I never saw a doctor or said a prayer, yet within a couple days I felt all better.

Oh please, everyone just take it down a notch or two. All this discussion of documentation of this or that alleged miracle is a waste of time.

Obviously the type of evidence that the atheists are demanding for miracles (objective, repeatable, well-documented, etc.) isn't available. If it were, we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we? So why isn't it available? It depends completely on your point of view. For our atheist friends, the answer is obviously that all we observe is in line with naturalistic explanations and that God simply doesn't exist. For the theists here, we simply wouldn't expect such incontrovertible evidence of miracles to be forthcoming. Per LDS doctrine, we all pass through a veil of forgetfullness as we enter this life - why forget anything if God will just openly reveal it all to everyone anyway?

[Zakuska]

That reminds me of this one time earlier this year I slipped on some ice on some concrete steps. I fell and hit my back so hard that I nearly threw up from the shock. I had to lie there in the snow for nearly half an hour because of the pain. I never saw a doctor or said a prayer, yet within a couple days I felt all better.

It took you a couple days... "Not a few hours".

[Pahoran]

Unlike some here---Hammer has a life out side this board--- Christmas is coming don't ya know?

It happened in Hawaii 30 + years ago-- I was the elder who pronounced the blessing.

Excellent; an actual eyewitness to the event.

Of course, the hate clique will simply redouble their cries of "liar liar pants on fire," as if any of them can write a single paragraph of their anti-Mormon dreck without any intentional counterfactuals.

I witnessed the miracle-- the native members, one of which was the man healed, claimed I was another Mathew Calley.

Urg. Tumuaki's name was Cowley. BTW, I have met the baby born blind. (He's a rather old guy these days.)

I was the instrument in several such blessings on the Island. Don't worry Bra, I can't come up with all the names, but if you request a special viewing of my life's experiences after this life--- maybe the Good Lord will see fit to let you see what wonders He does perform here.

So now you're claiming to have witnessed several such miracles? Wow, is there enough soap in all of cyberland to wash your mouth out after telling such things? Don't you know that any assertion that runs counter to an atheist's prejudices must be a lie?

My wife, many years later, had had a terrible fall where her hip, thigh bone and back were broken. She couldn't move and was in terrible pain. The paramedics in the ER told me they couldn't help me give her a blessing though they were LDS so I annointed and pronounced the blessing my self. In this blessing I told her that just like "john ---------" foot was brought together and healed, she would be healed also and that when the hospital took xrays they would not find anything broken. ( the strange thing is I could never remember this guys name and during the blessing his name came to me without effort.)

To the utter amazement of the paramedics who brought her in and had first hand witnessed the bone brakage, the xrays came back with nothing broken. They told the tech that they had the wrong xrays and go check again because they knew there were breaks they could actually feel and see.

LOL The tech stated out right that my wife was the only one whose xrays had been taken in the last hour and these were hers.

My wife who had to be put on a board to be brought in, WALKED out.

For proof that Jesus is a true prophet, read Matthew 7:6 and compare to the hate clique's response to this experience.

I never asked for proof of the miracles I heard about when I was young. I never doubted. I always believed and my life's experiences have bore it out.

The Lord Lives, He heals, He works according to our faith.

Gawrsh, I wonder why atheists don't experience his works then?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Noggin]

Hammer's miracle cannot be verified. That's fine. Why is it that miracles can't ever be verified?

And Charity, nice scripture. But there isn't any point fearing an entity that doesn't exist, ya know? That fearmongering works only in the pews.

Noggin

also, I need to brush up on board ettiquette. I got rather hot there on the last page. Hammer, I apologize for calling you a liar. I could have said that I flat out did not in any way shape or form believe your accounting. I did not have to come out and call you a liar. I still don't believe you.

[Pahoran]

Hammer's miracle cannot be verified. That's fine. Why is it that miracles can't ever be verified?

And Charity, nice scripture. But there isn't any point fearing an entity that doesn't exist, ya know? That fearmongering works only in the pews.

Noggin

also, I need to brush up on board ettiquette. I got rather hot there on the last page. Hammer, I apologize for calling you a liar. I could have said that I flat out did not in any way shape or form believe your accounting. I did not have to come out and call you a liar. I still don't believe you.

Hammer actually took your baseless accusations better than I did. I'll simply point out that you have no more credibility than you purport to think he does.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Outshined]

Why doesn't save the world from those who have nothing to offer humanity but mockery, intolerance and disdain to those who belong to the wrong religion? It would sure make it a better place and it would be a heck of a lot easier.

[Noggin]

And by the way

Any second now, Pahoran will break out stories from his or someone he knows uncle's mission president's wife's aunt's nephew's experience whereby an Elder serving his mission breaks a leg and gets a healing from a Catholic priest. The leg heals miraculously. The mission president is told the story and immediately runs down to the apartment of the healed missionary only to declare it an evil act. Promptly, the mission president rebreaks the leg of the healed elder and pronounces the "true" healing upon in. This time the leg heals again... and the mission president teaches the old saw about how Satan has powers too.

Sound familiar? Just about every mission has this or a type of this local legend circulating. Folklore. It's how the old testament was generated.

Noggin

[Noggin]

Hammer actually took your baseless accusations better than I did. I'll simply point out that you have no more credibility than you purport to think he does.

Regards,

Pahoran

And when did I attempt to throw around my credibility? You are the one trying to get all involved in this thread believing in miracles. You are the one in need of credibility, Pahoran. In your world, people who are dead for days can raise up, withered hands magically restore themselves, and flattened feet balloon back into full functionality.

Riiiiiight.

Noggin

[Pahoran]

And by the way

Any second now, Pahoran will break out stories from his or someone he knows uncle's mission president's wife's aunt's nephew's experience whereby an Elder serving his mission breaks a leg and gets a healing from a Catholic priest. The leg heals miraculously. The mission president is told the story and immediately runs down to the apartment of the healed missionary only to declare it an evil act. Promptly, the mission president rebreaks the leg of the healed elder and pronounces the "true" healing upon in. This time the leg heals again... and the mission president teaches the old saw about how Satan has powers too.

And yet you, of all people, had the temerity to call Hammer, of all people, a liar.

I do not repeat UL's or missionary folklore. As you would know if you bothered to actually acquaint yourself with my posting history.

Not that your ignorance of my actual positions really bothers me, except that you took it upon yourself to link my name to that silly old chestnut.

Don't do it again.

Sound familiar? Just about every mission has this or a type of this local legend circulating. Folklore.

So it does.

Atheists have folklore as well. F'rinstance, the notion that the problem of evil disproves the existence of God; that's atheist folklore. The notion that there have never been any miracles; that is folklore, the believing of which is a pure act of faith.

It's how the old testament was generated.

That's another bit of atheist folklore.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Noggin]

Oh please, everyone just take it down a notch or two. All this discussion of documentation of this or that alleged miracle is a waste of time.

Obviously the type of evidence that the atheists are demanding for miracles (objective, repeatable, well-documented, etc.) isn't available. If it were, we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we? So why isn't it available? It depends completely on your point of view. For our atheist friends, the answer is obviously that all we observe is in line with naturalistic explanations and that God simply doesn't exist. For the theists here, we simply wouldn't expect such incontrovertible evidence of miracles to be forthcoming. Per LDS doctrine, we all pass through a veil of forgetfullness as we enter this life - why forget anything if God will just openly reveal it all to everyone anyway?

Fine point. I still would like to extend my offer of $20 to the first person who can show me a medically verified miracle in the last 50 years. And please, National Enquirer does not count.

Noggin

[The Nehor]

Other: I have a personal testimony that God hates amputees, the Amish, Canadians, Zoroastrians, Mutants, and Klingons. I believe that differs from all your choices.

[Zakuska]

Miracles are in the eyes of the beholder. To My Great Grand cousin IVF would be considered a Miracle. Can you narrow your search parameters please.

[SleepingWillow]

It took you a couple days... "Not a few hours".

I was walking within about two hours.