Why Doesn't God Heal Amputees?

[Tarski]

And by the way

Any second now, Pahoran will break out stories from his or someone he knows uncle's mission president's wife's aunt's nephew's experience whereby an Elder serving his mission breaks a leg and gets a healing from a Catholic priest. The leg heals miraculously. The mission president is told the story and immediately runs down to the apartment of the healed missionary only to declare it an evil act. Promptly, the mission president rebreaks the leg of the healed elder and pronounces the "true" healing upon in. This time the leg heals again... and the mission president teaches the old saw about how Satan has powers too.

Sound familiar? Just about every mission has this or a type of this local legend circulating. Folklore. It's how the old testament was generated.

Noggin

That stuff isn't true?

[Zakuska]

Lets see... You get the wind knocked out of you and lay in the snow for a half hour not being able to move. Then you get up and limp away.

Heres his wife who gets carried away in a stretcher with paramedic prognosis. Only to find no broken bones.

Aaa... sorry if I cant make heads or tails of your fruit salad.

What exactly are you looking for... Jeeb?

[Weezer]

Why is it that miracles can't ever be verified?

That seems to be the underlying question of this thread. Pahoran has roundly rejected the "God hides from science" explanation, so let's look at other alternatives:

• There actually is scientific confirmation of miracles. Here are the references: ____________________.
  
• There is scientific confirmation, but there's a conspiracy to suppress it.
  
• Recipients of miracles have, in every case, avoided any activity that might result in scientific confirmation. (before and after x-rays, etc.)
  
• God doesn't intentionally restrict his miracles to cases that resist scientific confirmation, but it has turned out that way purely by coincidence.
  
• Some power higher than God prevents him from using his power in cases that lend themselves to scientific confirmation.
  
• God doesn't exist.
  

Can anyone think of any others?

[Tchild2]

Miracles are in the eyes of the beholder. To My Great Grand cousin IVF would be considered a Miracle. Can you narrow your search parameters please.

Yes, that is true. However, a lost limb is a most objectively hard and cold reality. Having a limb grow back or regenerate would be fall in the same objectively and verifiable realm. Labeling something a miracle that already falls in the realm of statistical probability is just changing the words and labels around.

I have had many miraculous events happen in my life. They are miraculous to me given the probability for other more negative outcomes that could have easily transpired. I do know that a miracle won't work if I experience a consequence that doesn't allow for those statistical allowances or anomolies; skydiving accident, bungee-chord breaks, swallowing a capsule of cyanide, getting a dose of polonium-210 (Russian spy), stepping in front of a grenade launcher, or visiting a Sunni controlled section of Baghdad with my touristy hawaiin shirt, black socks and a shiny rolex on my wrist.

[SleepingWillow]

Atheists have folklore as well. F'rinstance, the notion that the problem of evil disproves the existence of God; that's atheist folklore. The notion that there have never been any miracles; that is folklore, the believing of which is a pure act of faith.

That's another bit of atheist folklore.

Typical "but atheists are just as bad as us" drivel. Atheists are not making the spectactular claims. We are merely asking, nay, we are willing to pay for, evidence that those spectactular claims actually happened.

You are partially correct on your points--the problem of evil does not disprove all possible Gods, but it does seem to disprove the existence of a loving, omnipotent one in a fairly brutal manner.

As for your second claim, most atheists don't claim that miracles have never happened, but that there is not significant evidence to believe in miracles and that the onus is on those who make spectacular claims to provide spectacular evidence. This is an important distinction that theists seem to get wrong time and time and time again.

Lets see... You get the wind knocked out of you and lay in the snow for a half hour not being able to move. Then you get up and limp away.

Heres his wife who gets carried away in a stretcher with paramedic prognosis. Only to find no broken bones.

The paramedics came and put me on a stretcher where I remained for about an hour. They told me to be careful as I "may have broken [my] back." Why didn't I go to the hospital? Frankly because at the time I couldn't afford it. This happened on a school campus so I remained on the school campus where I would not be liable for any paramedic bills (according to the emergency responders, as soon as I left the campus I would probably be liable).

After an hour my girlfriend came and picked me up. The pain gradually subsided and I opted not to go to the hospital.

[awyatt]

The drift in this thread is just amazing.

It starts out with a poll because Sleeping Willow just wants to know. (He/she doesn't want to prove anything, he/she only wants to know.)

Somewhere in the middle, I say that Sleeping Willow won't accept any evidence, because the expected answer is in the phrasing of the question.

Then a whole host of atheists start asking for any miracle, and when one is cited, start calling the person a liar.

When that person indicates he was an actual participant in the events (providing first-hand knowledge), the "liar" status goes away, being replaced with "I don't believe you."

So much for only wanting to know! (Something about "true colors" comes to mind.)

And athiests wonder why believers don't share information about miracles with them.

-Allen

[Argos]

also, I need to brush up on board ettiquette. I got rather hot there on the last page. Hammer, I apologize for calling you a liar. I could have said that I flat out did not in any way shape or form believe your accounting. I did not have to come out and call you a liar. I still don't believe you.

Yeah, calling someone a liar gets you on the list. Thanks for apologizing - I hope it was sincere. Couldn't really tell since your words above could be sarcastic. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt this time but watch it. ~mod

[Tarski]

Lets see... You get the wind knocked out of you and lay in the snow for a half hour not being able to move. Then you get up and limp away.

Heres his wife who gets carried away in a stretcher with paramedic prognosis. Only to find no broken bones.

The alleged paramedic prognosis turned out to be wrong. Big deal. It happens all the time. Why do you think we do X-rays? This is so not miraculous it ain't funny. No wait. It is a bit funny.

[Zakuska]

Ok. Thank you for filling in some information.

Now... whos to say that even though you didn't pray... that one of the more pios paramedics didn't go home that evening and hold hands with his family at supper time and pray for your recovery.

[SleepingWillow]

The drift in this thread is just amazing.

It starts out with a poll because Sleeping Willow just wants to know. (He/she doesn't want to prove anything, he/she only wants to know.)

Somewhere in the middle, I say that Sleeping Willow won't accept any evidence, because the expected answer is in the phrasing of the question.

Then a whole host of atheists start asking for any miracle, and when one is cited, start calling the person a liar.

When that person indicates he was an actual participant in the events (providing first-hand knowledge), the "liar" status goes away, being replaced with "I don't believe you."

So much for only wanting to know! (Something about "true colors" comes to mind.)

And athiests wonder why believers don't share information about miracles with them.

-Allen

Asking for evidence is not the same as calling someone a liar. Noggin may have crossed that line but everyone else was careful not to.

[Zakuska]

The alleged paramedic prognosis turned out to be wrong. Big deal. It happens all the time. Why do you think we do X-rays? This is so not miraculous it ain't funny. No wait. It is a bit funny.

Awaytt good call.

Yep and the Liar-Liar pants on fire atitudes and mockery continue. !

Perhaps both SleepingWillow and Hammer wouldn't mind sharing the Paramedic reports with us all. (Whats the saying PUT up or SHUT up) Then we can see who is really lying?

Yeah the trash talk gets pretty deep until some one calls you on it.

[SleepingWillow]

Awaytt good call.

Yep and the Liar-Liar pants on fiar atitudes and mockery continue.

You (wrongly) assume that atheists have a bizarre anti-miracle agenda and do not want evidence of miracles. On the contrary, if you read what we have said it is clear we are literally begging for evidence but are getting none other than the usual heresay.

Perhaps both SleepingWillow and (The other poster) wouldn't mind sharing the Paramedic reports with us all. (Whats the saying PUT up or SHUT up) Then we can see who is really lying?

Yeah the trash talk gets pretty deep until some one calls you on it.

The onus is not on atheists to provide evidence of non-miracles. You can choose to disbelieve me but you can't deny that non-miracles happen all the time.

[Zakuska]

Mind putting your money where your keyboard is and sharing your paramedics report?

Second you adressed it to me I think You ment Awaytt. Just FYI.

You (wrongly) assume that atheists have a bizarre anti-miracle agenda and do not want evidence of miracles. On the contrary, if you read what we have said it is clear we are literally begging for evidence but are getting none other than the usual heresay.

The onus is not on atheists to provide evidence of non-miracles. You can choose to disbelieve me, but you can't deny that non-miracles happen all the time.

And so do Miracles. The very fact that a Flower Grows is a Miracle. Please provide.. I'll accept the scanned document via Email or PM.

Mods... I'll rephrase if necessary.

EDIT FOR OFFENDING REMARK

[selek]

You (wrongly) assume that atheists have a bizarre anti-miracle agenda and do not want evidence of miracles. On the contrary, if you read what we have said it is clear we are literally begging for evidence but are getting none other than the usual heresay.

But the evidence was presented to you, by an eye-witness and participant in the event. You simply choose to reject it out of hand as "the usual here-say".

I asked you earlier if you could accept proof. You said that you could, depending upon the nature of the proof.

Yet here you are clearly not willing to entertain the proof you have been given.

As AWyatt pointed out earlier, your presuppositions were clear in the manner in which you presented the issue, and now you are clearly not willing to abandon those presuppositions, even in the face of first-hand testimony.

[SleepingWillow]

Mind putting your money where your keyboard is and sharing your paramedics report?

I never got one. Sorry. There is nothing noteworthy about what happened to me.

[Zakuska]

I never got one. Sorry. There is nothing noteworthy about what happened to me.

They're filed at the Hospital or dispatch for the paramedics. You can request them any time you want them.

[Deborah]

Notice how the "miracle" happened in a modern day surgury room? Isn't it telling that the Elders took second fiddle to the more obvious, logical and wholly rational choice of heading straight to a hospital? Apparently, most people prefer the aid of failing and imperfect persons (doctors, nurses) over an all powerful God that they profess to believe in, worship and dedicate their life to.

We are also expected to do all that we can do and that includes utilizing the God-given enlightenment of medical science. However, medicine can only go so far and in some cases faith can intercede and avoid the necessity of medicine, especially when there may be other factors involved.

I prefer to use the Priesthood rather than doctors for a simple illness but it would be foolish if a child has a broken bone to not utilize the expertise of professionals to properly set it. Why would you expect God to heal without using all the resources available? I also believed that it is our responsiblity to eat properly and treat our bodies with respect to avoid illness and infirmity. Do the naysayers believe we who have faith can do anything we want to abuse our bodies and expect to be blessed with good health just because we ask for a blessing? Those of us who believe in the healing powers of God would not expect such a thing.

I do believe that many infirmities we have are for our growth and to learn compassion, patience and humility. But I also believe that times and circumstances call for divine intervention and I've seen too many healing miracles in my own life to think that there isn't some higher power which can intervene when circumstances call for it. Unfortunately due to the mockery of some here I wouldn't share those experiences.

[SleepingWillow]

But the evidence was presented to you, by an eye-witness and participant in the event. You simply choose to reject it out of hand as "the usual here-say".

I asked you earlier if you could accept proof. You said that you could, depending upon the nature of the proof.

Yet here you are clearly not willing to entertain the proof you have been given.

As AWyatt pointed out earlier, your presuppositions were clear in the manner in which you presented the issue, and now you are clearly not willing to abandon those presuppositions, even in the face of first-hand testimony.

It's almost comical that you think I should accept that a crushed foot magically ballooned into a normal foot without any documentation of the said fact.

Here's another story (and I swear it is true). I was snowboarding and I went outside the roped-off area. I ended up flying off a 1,000-foot cliff. 10 seconds later I landed on a bed of rocks. I was in very bad shape, covered in blood, with my bones broken terribly, so I said a prayer and before my very eyes I saw my bones and skin mend until I was completely whole.

[Zakuska]

I was snowboarding

Thats explains alot.

Thank goodness... you didnt have to call the paramedics and pay $500 for them to come get you.

[Weezer]

But the evidence was presented to you, by an eye-witness and participant in the event. You simply choose to reject it out of hand as "the usual here-say".

I asked you earlier if you could accept proof. You said that you could, depending upon the nature of the proof.

Yet here you are clearly not willing to entertain the proof you have been given.

If first-person accounts constitute proof, then you must also believe in alien visitations, Virgin Mary sightings, and haunted houses. Do you?

[Tarski]

As AWyatt pointed out earlier, your presuppositions were clear in the manner in which you presented the issue, and now you are clearly not willing to abandon those presuppositions, even in the face of first-hand testimony.

Wait! Wait. What about my true story? I broke my finger and by the time I got it X-rayed later there was no evidence of a break. There were witnesses to my break too. I did it lifting weights and I wasn't alone.

Even the nurse who first saw me in the ER said it was "definitely broken". So how did it get fixed without a prayer or anything and me an atheist?

Eyewitness evidence as good as what was given here! Yet ignored.

Answer: It was never broken.

However, what with the nurse saying so and me being sure it was broken I could have thought it a proven miracle---except that I am appropriately skeptical instead of a believing mystery monger.

[Zakuska]

If first-person accounts constitute proof, then you must also believe in alien visitations, Virgin Mary sightings, and haunted houses. Do you?

We'll there goes the Neightborhood. Would all the judges, law enforcement officers, juries please leave the building you are all here by no loger needed.

[SleepingWillow]

They're filed at the Hospital or dispatch for the paramedics. You can request them any time you want them.

Why would I want it? I didn't break anything. However, I guarantee if my foot was crushed yet magically balooned and became whole I sure as heck would request a report. I would send a copy of this report to the NYT, the WP, the AP, Fox News, CNN, and MSNBC and do interviews with them for weeks.

[Zakuska]

Why would I want it? I didn't break anything. However, I guarantee if my foot was crushed yet magically balooned and became whole I sure as heck would request a report. I would send a copy of this report to the NYT, the WP, the AP, Fox News, CNN, and MSNBC and do interviews with them for weeks.

Why so... it could be publish in the National Inquirer and you could milk the media for every thing they've got? Maybe sell a little snake oil along the way?

Like I said... Please Provide. Other wise... to all us here you're nothing but a little skate head.

EDIT FOR OFFENDING REMARK

[SleepingWillow]

We'll there goes the Neightborhood. Would all the judges, law enforcement officers, juries please leave the building you are all here by no loger needed.

No dice. They rely on first-hand accounts of ordinary things (crimes happen all the time and are often caught on video) in corroboration with circumstantial evidence. But if a witness decided to be extraordinary, for example claiming in court they had a vision wherein they were told who the guilty person was, it would probably be completely stricken from the record.