Why Doesn't God Heal Amputees?

[Hammer]

Actually that was one of the options--they do happen, they just never happen in a manner science can observe, which leads to another question, how come they never happen in a manner that science can observe?

A scout camping trip?

I've always wondered that too.

Would it be considered a healing if they were still deformed?

[SleepingWillow]

So-- let them stew in their own miraculousless world.

Noooooooooooooooooo!

[Sethbag]

Hammer, I don't mean to be overly offensive here, but it's possible for people to think something is happening with their body when it in fact isn't. People make mistaken diagnoses about health issues all the time. Even doctors do. It's one of the reasons we have technologies like x-ray machines and such, so that not only can educated people think that a bone is broken, they can actually see the break and know their diagnosis is correct.

Given how many people have claimed miracles in this world and been mistaken about it, all I'm saying is I'd prefer to withhold my judgment or opinion on whether the miracle you say happened really happened that way, or you just thought it did.

By the way, I thought more than once as a teenager, including when I was a freshman at BYU, that I'd been assaulted by evil spirits while I slept. I woke up a couple of times feeling (and even seeing, or so I thought) a roughly humanoid shape setting on my chest, and was paralyzed with fear, and ended up screaming out in my mind for the Lord to come save me, which he soon enough did. Or so I thought. These experiences were very real to me, and I was 100% convinced I'd been touched by evil, and indeed assaulted by it. Only later did I learn that what I'd experienced was in fact the well-known phenomenon of "sleep paralysis".

I'm not saying you were hallucinating or anything, just that it's possible for your perception of the situation to have been exaggerated or else simply mistaken. That's why I was hoping you might have x-rays that would unambiguously back up your claim. Absent that, I have to chalk it up to the "maybe, but there's no way to know" column, which unfortunately means it won't count for much in terms of my beliefs.

[Sethbag]

Actually, no YOUR statement begs the question- you have yet to prove that miracles don't happen to amputees.

I don't think anyone here has tried to prove that miraculous restoration of severed limbs doesn't occur. We are just observing that it has not been verified to have occurred, and asking why.

Do you have any such verification of such miraculous events to contribute to this conversation?

[Deborah]

I don't think anyone here has tried to prove that miraculous restoration of severed limbs doesn't occur. We are just observing that it has not been verified to have occurred, and asking why.

Do you have any such verification of such miraculous events to contribute to this conversation?

A lot of miracles that have occurred will never be "verified" for the simple reason they are personal experiences meant for the benefit of those to whom they occur and not for the oogling and dissecting of those who do not have faith.

I have lots of verification for miraculous healings but afraid nothing that would satisfy the skeptics. Even if they were to see the hospital records they would still claim it was something else or a healing that would have taken place anyway, even though it was remarkably spontaneous and unexpected. I have no personal experience with amputees being healed except in the spiritual sense and no reason to expect that it would be necessary for the Lord to do so either for the benefit of the person or the proof of his power.

[Noggin]

Hello

This is most likely the only post I will make under this screen name. I usually go by the username

Noggin

I have no intention of starting an alter ego username on this forum.

But I am unable to log in under my Noggin name. I suppose I have been banned by moderators from this forum for, from what I can gather, calling Hammer a liar. I have already apologized to Hammer, but that apology was called into question for sincerity. And I want to state that it was sincere. I usually do not call people liars. I do believe I was baited into making that accusation, and I am positive the baitor is gloating while they read this, but I am an adult and take responsibility for my actions. Indeed, I did type the word "Liar". So pay I must.

While I am at it, I also wanted to congratulate Pahoran, the Baitor... in a sportsmanlike manner even... I must say good fellow, "Touche" there, man. That was a very decent chess move and I did not see it coming! Nice move! Since I'll not post again, I'll stand aside for the heckling commentary I expect.

So Farewell, Forum. It has been fun. I'll post at you later if'n I ever get out of FAIRBOARD purgatory.

Noggin, who is feeling a tad like that book of Mormon atheist Korihor who is cast out from among the city, set at naught as dross, worthy only for the companionship of dogs... waiting for death to find me...

Oh come on, Moderators. I'll be good.

[Pahoran]

Hello

This is most likely the only post I will make under this screen name. I usually go by the username

Noggin

I have no intention of starting an alter ego username on this forum.

But I am unable to log in under my Noggin name. I suppose I have been banned by moderators from this forum for, from what I can gather, calling Hammer a liar. I have already apologized to Hammer, but that apology was called into question for sincerity. And I want to state that it was sincere. I usually do not call people liars. I do believe I was baited into making that accusation, and I am positive the baitor is gloating while they read this, but I am an adult and take responsibility for my actions. Indeed, I did type the word "Liar". So pay I must.

Argos seemed to accept your apology and let you off with a warning. I don't see any note to the effect that you've been zapped. It might just be a glitch.

While I am at it, I also wanted to congratulate Pahoran, the Baitor... in a sportsmanlike manner even... I must say good fellow, "Touche" there, man. That was a very decent chess move and I did not see it coming! Nice move! Since I'll not post again, I'll stand aside for the heckling commentary I expect.

Sigh. I wasn't baiting you. I asked if you were calling him a liar for relating the closest experience he had had to something resembling your question, and you readily agreed.

So Farewell, Forum. It has been fun. I'll post at you later if'n I ever get out of FAIRBOARD purgatory.

Noggin, who is feeling a tad like that book of Mormon atheist Korihor who is cast out from among the city, set at naught as dross, worthy only for the companionship of dogs... waiting for death to find me...

Oh come on, Moderators. I'll be good.

I suggest you PM Argos rather than post thus.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Hammer]

Hammer, I don't mean to be overly offensive here, but it's possible for people to think something is happening with their body when it in fact isn't. People make mistaken diagnoses about health issues all the time. Even doctors do. It's one of the reasons we have technologies like x-ray machines and such, so that not only can educated people think that a bone is broken, they can actually see the break and know their diagnosis is correct.

Given how many people have claimed miracles in this world and been mistaken about it, all I'm saying is I'd prefer to withhold my judgment or opinion on whether the miracle you say happened really happened that way, or you just thought it did.

By the way, I thought more than once as a teenager, including when I was a freshman at BYU, that I'd been assaulted by evil spirits while I slept. I woke up a couple of times feeling (and even seeing, or so I thought) a roughly humanoid shape setting on my chest, and was paralyzed with fear, and ended up screaming out in my mind for the Lord to come save me, which he soon enough did. Or so I thought. These experiences were very real to me, and I was 100% convinced I'd been touched by evil, and indeed assaulted by it. Only later did I learn that what I'd experienced was in fact the well-known phenomenon of "sleep paralysis".

I'm not saying you were hallucinating or anything, just that it's possible for your perception of the situation to have been exaggerated or else simply mistaken. That's why I was hoping you might have x-rays that would unambiguously back up your claim. Absent that, I have to chalk it up to the "maybe, but there's no way to know" column, which unfortunately means it won't count for much in terms of my beliefs.

If you really don't want to believe, I don't think you should try so hard to have me prove anything to you.

[Sethbag]

QUOTE(Sethbag @ Dec 19 2006, 06:50 PM) *

Do you have any such verification of such miraculous events to contribute to this conversation?

A lot of miracles that have occurred will never be "verified" for the simple reason they are personal experiences meant for the benefit of those to whom they occur and not for the oogling and dissecting of those who do not have faith.

I have lots of verification for miraculous healings but afraid nothing that would satisfy the skeptics. Even if they were to see the hospital records they would still claim it was something else or a healing that would have taken place anyway, even though it was remarkably spontaneous and unexpected. I have no personal experience with amputees being healed except in the spiritual sense and no reason to expect that it would be necessary for the Lord to do so either for the benefit of the person or the proof of his power.

So I take it this is a "no"?

[SleepingWillow]

Argos seemed to accept your apology and let you off with a warning. I don't see any note to the effect that you've been zapped. It might just be a glitch.

Sigh. I wasn't baiting you. I asked if you were calling him a liar for relating the closest experience he had had to something resembling your question, and you readily agreed.

I suggest you PM Argos rather than post thus.

Regards,

Pahoran

Please remove that quote attributed to me from your signature. I see the humor in it, but it is out of context and misleading. I was highlighting that what selek claimed in a prior post was irrelevant. Regardless, I proceeded to provide plenty of facts to back up my claim.

[Sethbag]

If you really don't want to believe, I don't think you should try so hard to have me prove anything to you.

Sigh. As has been posted any number of times by myself and handfuls of other critics, my unbelief has nothing to do with not wanting to believe. I'd be perfectly fine with believing. I just want to believe in something credible. If you have something credible to offer up, aside from your assertion that you were there and saw it, when it's possible you were simply mistaken or "carried away" in a spiritual sense, then I'd be happy to find out.

I don't mean that you're a liar, either, if you were mistaken. I believe you when you say you believe this happened. I'm sure you do believe it. But believing something happened, and it having actually happened, are two different things, however admirable you may be as a person. Heck, my friend who is in his third year of seminary in the Catholic archdiocese of Boston has told me of very spiritual experiences he has had where the Lord confirmed to him the truthfulness of the Catholic Church. I don't think he's a liar. I think he really believes this, and is simply mistaken. He might well say to me "you just don't want to believe it" and I'd say hey man, it's not that I don't want to believe it. I just don't believe it. Oh well.

[SleepingWillow]

Sigh. As has been posted any number of times by myself and handfuls of other critics, my unbelief has nothing to do with not wanting to believe. I'd be perfectly fine with believing. I just want to believe in something credible. If you have something credible to offer up, aside from your assertion that you were there and saw it, when it's possible you were simply mistaken or "carried away" in a spiritual sense, then I'd be happy to find out.

I don't mean that you're a liar, either, if you were mistaken. I believe you when you say you believe this happened. I'm sure you do believe it. But believing something happened, and it having actually happened, are two different things, however admirable you may be as a person. Heck, my friend who is in his third year of seminary in the Catholic archdiocese of Boston has told me of very spiritual experiences he has had where the Lord confirmed to him the truthfulness of the Catholic Church. I don't think he's a liar. I think he really believes this, and is simply mistaken. He might well say to me "you just don't want to believe it" and I'd say hey man, it's not that I don't want to believe it. I just don't believe it. Oh well.

Let me just second this sentiment.

[Traela]

Sorry if someone posted this already, but my filter decided to block a few pages of this thread. Anyway, I once that a man asked Brigham Young to give him a new leg. BY said that he could, but then in the resurrection the original leg would be resurrected too, and the guy would be walking around with 3 legs. Has anyone else heard this story?

This topic is personally interesting to me. My little baby daughter was born with a "floating" thumb - the third bone (that's part of the palm) is missing, and the rest was underdeveloped and attached only by a flap of skin. It had to be amputated. I knew the Lord could fix her hand, but couldn't summon the faith that He would. I worried about this but it was given to me to know that God wasn't asking that of me, that her hand is that way for a reason.

Incidently, if her hand HAD been healed, there would be no proof except witnesses' say-so, since it hasn't been x-rayed.

[SleepingWillow]

Sorry if someone posted this already, but my filter decided to block a few pages of this thread. Anyway, I once that a man asked Brigham Young to give him a new leg. BY said that he could, but then in the resurrection the original leg would be resurrected too, and the guy would be walking around with 3 legs. Has anyone else heard this story?

I have. Quite bizarre.

[SleepingWillow]

Hello

This is most likely the only post I will make under this screen name. I usually go by the username

Noggin

I have no intention of starting an alter ego username on this forum.

But I am unable to log in under my Noggin name. I suppose I have been banned by moderators from this forum for, from what I can gather, calling Hammer a liar. I have already apologized to Hammer, but that apology was called into question for sincerity. And I want to state that it was sincere. I usually do not call people liars. I do believe I was baited into making that accusation, and I am positive the baitor is gloating while they read this, but I am an adult and take responsibility for my actions. Indeed, I did type the word "Liar". So pay I must.

While I am at it, I also wanted to congratulate Pahoran, the Baitor... in a sportsmanlike manner even... I must say good fellow, "Touche" there, man. That was a very decent chess move and I did not see it coming! Nice move! Since I'll not post again, I'll stand aside for the heckling commentary I expect.

So Farewell, Forum. It has been fun. I'll post at you later if'n I ever get out of FAIRBOARD purgatory.

Noggin, who is feeling a tad like that book of Mormon atheist Korihor who is cast out from among the city, set at naught as dross, worthy only for the companionship of dogs... waiting for death to find me...

Oh come on, Moderators. I'll be good.

Is this true? Was Noggin banned? I thought he received a warning.

That seems a little harsh, considering he apologized.

[Pahoran]

Please remove that quote attributed to me from your signature. I see the humor in it, but it is out of context and misleading. I was highlighting that what selek claimed in a prior post was irrelevant. Regardless, I proceeded to provide plenty of facts to back up my claim.

What quote attributed to you? I don't have such a thing in my signature. Anyone can see that I don't. Don't try to fall back on eyewitness testimony that I ever did; that doesn't cut it. I want either published newspaper reports or x-rays; nothing else will do.

Regards,

Pahoran

[SleepingWillow]

What quote attributed to you? I don't have such a thing in my signature. Anyone can see that I don't. Don't try to fall back on eyewitness testimony that I ever did; that doesn't cut it. I want either published newspaper reports or x-rays; nothing else will do.

If you have such a big problem with the concept of CFR for extraordinary claims, take it up with the mods, not me.

Sethbag made an appropriate response that I seconded regarding Hammer's miracles.

[Son]

Son, do you believe in the Teapot that is orbiting the Sun? Are you sure there isn't one? If so, how?

Yes, I blatantly ripped of Dawkins on this one. Anyhow, there are literally an infinite number of things whose existence we cannot prove nor disprove, and yet there isn't a shred of reason to believe any of them actually exist. I can be "sure" they don't exist without having to prove it. In my case, I'm sure there's no teapot, but open to being wrong if someday one should be discovered.

As far as God restoring severed limbs, I see no reason to believe this has ever happened, until and unless someone can actually document a credible instance of it. Until then, "he might have and we just don't know it" sounds an awful lot like belief in that teapot.

Prove you are alive on planet earth, you may be a computer generated response system or an illusion.

Prove you have hate, or love, or thought, or jealousy, or kindness, desire or any emotions at all.

Prove emotions exist.

Sometimes ignoring the obvious means one is paralyzed by the fear of the inevitable.

Seeing as no house ever built itself, or just happened without planning, design, and effort. How much greater are all living things and systems than a simple house. I find your lack of belief to be a handicap to reality. If one spent half their time proving as disproving, they may find a whole new way of living in eternity (the Now).

[Chaos]

Hello

This is most likely the only post I will make under this screen name. I usually go by the username

Noggin

I have no intention of starting an alter ego username on this forum.

But I am unable to log in under my Noggin name. I suppose I have been banned by moderators from this forum for, from what I can gather, calling Hammer a liar. I have already apologized to Hammer, but that apology was called into question for sincerity. And I want to state that it was sincere. I usually do not call people liars. I do believe I was baited into making that accusation, and I am positive the baitor is gloating while they read this, but I am an adult and take responsibility for my actions. Indeed, I did type the word "Liar". So pay I must.

While I am at it, I also wanted to congratulate Pahoran, the Baitor... in a sportsmanlike manner even... I must say good fellow, "Touche" there, man. That was a very decent chess move and I did not see it coming! Nice move! Since I'll not post again, I'll stand aside for the heckling commentary I expect.

So Farewell, Forum. It has been fun. I'll post at you later if'n I ever get out of FAIRBOARD purgatory.

Noggin, who is feeling a tad like that book of Mormon atheist Korihor who is cast out from among the city, set at naught as dross, worthy only for the companionship of dogs... waiting for death to find me...

Oh come on, Moderators. I'll be good.

This was a mistake we are re-instating your account now. We will merge The banned one with Noggin.

Carry on!!!

Chaos

Should be Corrected now.

[Sethbag]

Prove you are alive on planet earth, you may be a computer generated response system or an illusion.

Prove you have hate, or love, or thought, or jealousy, or kindness, desire or any emotions at all.

Prove emotions exist.

Sometimes ignoring the obvious means one is paralyzed by the fear of the inevitable.

Prove all these things? Why? I honestly don't care to get into discussions like this. I think I exist, and that's enough for me. What you believe is your problem. My point is that there are an infinite number of things that might possibly be true, but which nobody can prove nor disprove. It is not my obligation to believe all of them simply because they aren't disproven. Same with God restoring severed limbs. Nobody can point to credible examples of this happening, but we have had several people ask things like "what if God has restored severed limbs but nobody knows about it". OK. Maybe he did. Without any way for us to know it, and lacking any really good reason (like having credible reports confirming this) to believe that this happens, I'm just not even going to consider that. The "yeah, well he might" answer just doesn't mean anything.

Seeing as no house ever built itself, or just happened without planning, design, and effort. How much greater are all living things and systems than a simple house. I find your lack of belief to be a handicap to reality. If one spent half their time proving as disproving, they may find a whole new way of living in eternity (the Now).

Nature is nature. We're part of it. Technically speaking, a house comes about through natural processes, because we're part of nature. Just like rainfall is part of nature, and a lion eating a gazelle is part of nature, so are human beings and what we've made. Is an ant pile part of nature? Ok, our houses are like ant piles, but more complicated, because we have the cognitive and physical skills required to build more complicated houses than the ants do.

I just don't buy the "woo woo" answers that go something like "How great and marvelous and unfathomable is all of creation. A God simply must exist!" Actually no, a God mustn't exist just because the Universe exists, and has materials in it, and those materials obey certain physical laws and undergo various natural processes. A God might exist, but so far I've seen no reason to believe this that has any credibility to me. Your arguments certainly don't sway me in this regard.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

Well, gotta say I'm a bit disappointed that as soon as a thiest states that they saw a 'miraculous' event, the first impulse from some was to accuse them of dishonesty! :/

We all have to come to our own conclusion on 'the truth' based on the evidence with which we are provided. And I cannot assume what 'evidence' others have seen or experienced. I can only make my judgement on the evidence that I've seen, and that I've experienced. And that's the same position we are all in.

However, I won't accept 'word of mouth' alone as 'hard evidence' of anything much. And I make no apologies for that. And of course that works both ways. If I was to state that I have had spiritual experiences that matched any I had whilst an active member of the church whilst pondering and considering the possibilities of an 'athiestic' universe (which is 100% true btw), am I to expect the believers on this board to suddenly dismiss their own experiences, and their ramifications?!

Hardly. And I don't see a problem with that.

Anyway - let's consider the one experience that was stated earlier. That of a smashed foot literally 'ballooning' back to 'normal' - before the eyes. Indeed, this would have to be considered a miraculous event. And I'm not going to try and assert that this didn't happen. I wasn't there, so I don't know.

But I will say this...

If this event did happen in the 'real world' (i.e. in the materialistic universe), then it was an event that could have been recorded somehow. Many mobile phones have camcorders these days, and are readily carried around all the time by many people. There is more and more opportunity to capture these kinds of events on a medium that can be shared by all.

...so, if these kinds of events really DO happen in the real world, isn't it just a matter of time before they get recorded on video?

Maybe. But, of course, there are at least a couple of problems:

1. As recording technology develops, so too does the ability to 'fabricate'. Special effects -especially CGI - can create all kinds of 'illusions'. How could the 'cynical' be convinced that particular footage showing a 'miracle' wasn't fabricated?

Perhaps the most cynical won't be convinced otherwise. But (just incase anybody here does get the chance ), I can only suggest moving the camera around a lot. It'll be a lot harder to fabricate the shots if the camera position is changing regularly...

Other than that, I don't know the answer on this one.

2. I imagine it might be considered bad form to record blessings? I'm not basing this on anything other than that - in my time in the church - I don't ever rememeber a priesthood healing blessing being 'recorded'. Is this considered 'wrong' in any way? I'd be interested in the answer...

...because - of course - if priesthood healing blessings are the best time to try and catch a miracle, and yet that's a time that you shouldn't be using a video recorder, then we might well expect to not catch anything

Anwyay, I'll leave the last word to johndoe, who already settled this issue back in post #188:

Per LDS doctrine, we all pass through a veil of forgetfullness as we enter this life - why forget anything if God will just openly reveal it all to everyone anyway?

[thesometimesaint]

RenegadeOfPhunk:

I firmly believe that God inpired my doctors with the knowledge, skill, and dogged patience to help me keep my mangled arm. 50 years ago they would have cut it off, and I'd be called "stumpy".

Do you really want to see the video of the doctors cutting off my arm then sewing it back on?

[Tarski]

RenegadeOfPhunk:

I firmly believe that God inpired my doctors with the knowledge, skill, and dogged patience to help me keep my mangled arm. 50 years ago they would have cut it off, and I'd be called "stumpy".

Do you really want to see the video of the doctors cutting off my arm then sewing it back on?

I don't blame you for feeling thankful and given that you are a theist, I don't blame you for thanking God.

Of course you realize that this is once again something that makes sense completley within a atheisitc/materalistic world view don't you?

A flat out healing of an amputee is totally different. For example, suppose you did loose the arm and then months later a blessing was given to you and then just like some special effects in a movie, your arm is restored. I have no doubt that this would be quite possible if there really existed an omnipotent God. I also expect that to him, it wouldn't be any harder than curing cancer which is alleged to happen quite often.

I am also willing to bet that out there somewhere are several sad cases of someone caught up in religious ferver that totally expected that God was about to restore their arm.

Unlike what is claimed in the Bible, people do often have plenty of faith. The problem is not that people aren't willing to believe. The problem is that people are all too willing to believe.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

I firmly believe that God inpired my doctors with the knowledge, skill, and dogged patience to help me keep my mangled arm. 50 years ago they would have cut it off, and I'd be called "stumpy".

I'm glad that you were able to keep your arm. I truly am. And I'm A-OK with you beleving that GOd was - in some way - part of that.

...as long as you don't insinuate I should see medical science saving your arm as evidence of God.

Do you really want to see the video of the doctors cutting off my arm then sewing it back on?

I actually think it could potentially be interesting to watch - as long as you wouldn't mind!

...but I certainly can't imagine I'd see evidence of God in such a video...

[thesometimesaint]

RenegadeOfPhunk:

"as long as you don't insinuate I should see medical science saving your arm as evidence of God."

Why not, my Orthodpedic Surgeon sure does?

"I actually think it could potentially be interesting to watch - as long as you wouldn't mind!"

I don't mind. It is actually very cool to watch after the first cut. But then I almost became a MD myself.

"but I certainly can't imagine I'd see evidence of God in such a video..."

Why not, I certainly do?