Church Investment In Downtown Slc

[maklelan]

I too oversaw the appropriation of funds. But the seriousness that YOU saw at the WARD level was to get the funds to the bank. Can you claim firsthand knowledge of how the "tithing" funds are handled AFTER they leave the local units and go to SLC? In my experience, my annual tithing alone covered our wards budget and the remaining tithe funds were used how? Also, a distinction. When you refer to assisting others with "welfare items" I beleive only FAST OFFERING are used for that purpose NOT TITHING.

Tithing is used for welfare. Fast offerings refer back to the ward, but tithing is used at a higher level. Tithing also helps to build chapels, to subsidize BYU research and tuition, to contribute to temples, to offset the costs of missionary work, and to pay for various other expenses.

And I was not trying to appeal to emotion, I was trying to show that the church stepped in to help a struggling family when they had no obligation to. I was also trying to paint a picture of why I feel strongly about this issue. I could care less about how people respond to the story as long as they recognize the facts.

[SlackTime]

Maybe this has been covered, so feel free to ignore me or point me in the right direction.

What are the sources of financial income for the church?

1. Tithing/Donations

2. ???

When I turn in a donation slip I earmark funds for:

1. Tithing

2. Fast Offerings

3. Missionary Work, local and world-wide, or a specific missionary can be specified.

4. Other

Other can include donations to specific building projects, Scouting, Perpetual-education fund, and there are other local and church-wide projects that can be donated to.

In addition I can go to LDS Philanthropies and donate towards other LDS Philanthropic Charities

Tithing is specifically earmarked for use in maintaining and expanding the religious infrastructure of the Church.

-SlackTime

[Scott Lloyd]

Donating .5-2% of its profits to charity is an outrage. I rather suspect that is the reason it refuses to release its financial records--the Church would become a laughingstock.

By now, we're well acquainted with your jaundiced and myopic opinion. And it's no more compelling now than it was the first time you expressed it.

[SleepingWillow]

By now, we're well acquainted with your jaundiced and myopic opinion. And it's no more compelling now than it was the first time you expressed it.

Lest you were misinformed, you do not speak for everyone here.

[Scott Lloyd]

Lest you were misinformed, you do not speak for everyone here.

That's OK; I'm not running for office.

But I'm confident my views on this matter are consistent with those of most tithe payers in the Church, that being that missions, temples, schools and so forth are an appropriate expenditure of tithing funds; relieving suffering and supplying necessities are an appropriate usage of fast-offering and humanitarian funds; and self-sustaining commercial enterprises are desirable in that they help to maintain the strength and viability of the Church.

[selek]

Lest you were misinformed, you do not speak for everyone here.

Perhaps not everyone, but I'm willing to state bluntly that he does speak for me in this matter, and I'm willing to speculate that he speaks for a majority of the faithful on these boards- which is for whom they were intended.

Now, do you wish to contribute to the discussion or is your particular pity-party particularly virulent today?

[SleepingWillow]

Perhaps not everyone, but I'm willing to state bluntly that he does speak for me in this matter, and I'm willing to speculate that he speaks for a majority of the faithful on these boards- which is for whom they were intended.

Now, do you wish to contribute to the discussion or is your particular pity-party particularly virulent today?

Truly, I feel the spirit of Christ emanating from the faithful tithe payers today.

Now if you don't mind, would you explain why "Newman's Own" donates more to charity as a percentage of revenue than the Church?

[selek]

Truly, I feel the spirit of Christ emanating from the faithful tithe payers today.

Now if you don't mind, would you explain why "Newman's Own" donates more to charity as a percentage of revenue than the Church?

Willow, if I were to invite you into my home and feed you, following which you were to defecate on the carpet, insult my wife, kick my dog, and harass and annoy my children, would the Spirit of Christ prevent me from kicking your sory butt out the door?

You're a troll and a trouble maker and you have yet to contribute anything but contention and vitriol since you started posting here.

Go crap on someone else's carpets until you learn better manners.

[Scott Lloyd]

Duplicate post. Pardon.

[maklelan]

Perhaps not everyone, but I'm willing to state bluntly that he does speak for me in this matter, and I'm willing to speculate that he speaks for a majority of the faithful on these boards- which is for whom they were intended.

Now, do you wish to contribute to the discussion or is your particular pity-party particularly virulent today?

I concur. You (SleepinWillow) speak for far less people here than he does.

[SleepingWillow]

You're a troll and a trouble maker and you have yet to contribute anything but contention and vitriol since you started posting here.

Go crap on someone else's carpets until you learn better manners.

I don't know what you're talking about.

[USU78]

I've made what I think are salient points about the Church's misappropriation of the Lord's money, while you and others have been resorting to crass personal insults.

Misappropriation is a crime most everywhere in the world. If you are to accuse Church leadership of this crime, I for one would like to see something more than "I can do it better because I care more than those moneygrubbing, soulsucking w4ore$ in the Church Office Building."

I have several good friends who work there . . . and yes they handle Church general funds (read tithing) in the course of their work.

I know you are disinclined to believe it, but they take very seriously the fact that it is ( a ) the widow's mite and ( b ) the Lord's money they are spending, and do so wisely and frugally. I had the opportunity to visit the Church Office Building just a week ago (my line of authority was messed up and I wanted to get it sorted out). The furniture on the main floor looks like it's the same stuff that was there when I went to the Mission Home (remember that?) in 1973.

The funds are not being wasted, and the audit department is on top of people like you would never believe (because you're disinclined to).

I'm not finding much value in what you have to say here, SW. Perhaps I'm missing something?

[urroner]

I'm not finding much value in what you have to say here, SW. Perhaps I'm missing something?

You're missing a good college education, but then again, yu wend too the rong skul.

[selek]

I don't know what you're talking about.

Clearly. You're also apparently having trouble with consecutive thoughts and consistent logic. Please either try to follow the conversation- I'll see if I can find you a nice, red bouncing ball- or address the issues raised rather than sniping about like a rabid chihuahua with a rancor's table manners.

[Scott Lloyd]

Truly, I feel the spirit of Christ emanating from the faithful tithe payers today.

Now if you don't mind, would you explain why "Newman's Own" donates more to charity as a percentage of revenue than the Church?

Because the Church is a charity.

That's like denouncing the American Cancer Society because it gives less to non-cancer-related causes than does a salad-dressing manufacturer.

And by the way, don't come on here with guns blazing and then accuse the defenders here of being unChristlike. This is a debate board; if you can stand having your arguments vigorously countered, find another venue.

[Yong Xi]

I asked previously and have not seen a response. Perhaps no one knows.

What is the definition of "The Lord's Money"? What does it consist of? Where does it come from?

[Avatar4321]

Truly, I feel the spirit of Christ emanating from the faithful tithe payers today.

Now if you don't mind, would you explain why "Newman's Own" donates more to charity as a percentage of revenue than the Church?

Please, dont start picking fights and then acting all innocent when people dont put up with it. Its disrespectful and condescending.

[antishock8]

In the closed philanthropy thread below, one of our detractors asserted that the Church by developing real estate in downtown SLC was diverting charity and tithing to money-grubbing commercial activities.

This is not true.

When the initiative was announced, the Church went out of its way to assure everyone that no tithing money was involved; that it was being financed from the Church's existing commercial ventures. This assurance is even in this month's Ensign, which is a reprint of October conference.

They TOLD you this, over and over. And yet you do not bother to listen.

And if you ARE listening, you apparently do not believe the statement. Why not?

Moreover, as one other contributor to that thread hinted, rejuvenation of downtown SLC is important for the Church, if for no other reason than to make the downtown safe for visitors to Conference, Church Headquarters, and the Temple.

Seven or eight years ago, the Economist magazine wrote that downtown SLC was one of the most vibrant urban downtowns in America, named the Church as the reason for this, and then expressed optimism that this vibrancy would continue.

Surely, then, this is a worthy project, along the lines of charity for the downtrodden. (I can think of a number of American cities that would be green with envy to have such a downtown promoter.)

Beowulf

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a corporation taking money and reinvesting it in order to make more money. I really don't see what the problem is, frankly.

[SlackTime]

I asked previously and have not seen a response. Perhaps no one knows.

What is the definition of "The Lord's Money"? What does it consist of? Where does it come from?

Sorry, I must have missed that post. But posts I have made should have guided you to the LDS thought on the subject.

All things are the Lord's and He makes man a steward over the things He give to us. God asks that we return a tenth part to Him for the maintenence of His Kingdom. (See Malachi 7) Since all that we have is His, then He has the right to ask the return of His portion. He leaves us with the 90% to use to maintain ourselves and families and to do good upon the earth including the aiding of the poor and afflicted.

Thus the 10% is the Lord's money, not ours. The 90% is ours to use freely but the Lord asks us to help each other.

The primary means of helping each other is through the use of Fast Offerings. We are asked to fast 2 meals and donate the savings to help the poor and needy. We have also been asked to be generous in our fast offerings. I have a fair sized family, and I know that to feed them 2 good meals easily costs me about $30. In addition to fast offerings there are many welfare projects where members volunteer their time to help provide food and necessities for the poor and the needy.

I hope this helps you understand the concept of the Lord's money.

-SlackTime

[Yong Xi]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a corporation taking money and reinvesting it in order to make more money. I really don't see what the problem is, frankly.

Obviously, corporations can and do make investments. I guess many people have a hard time seeing Jesus as a businessman, but why should they? If the church is investing Jesus' money, He must have approved it.

Everything already belongs to Jesus. He might as well be in business, real estate or otherwise. After all He not only created and owns this world, but all the worlds in all the universes. What is one little development in Salt Lake City, Utah located on planet earth compared with all of His other holdings? And why should He divulge His finances? His corporation is totally private. He can do whatever He wants with His money.

This topic is just silly and shouldn't even be discussed.

[Ray Callis Hatton III]

An analogy... I rob a bank, steal $10,000 dollars, and invest it for 30 years. It's worth $400,000 now. I can hardly argue that the $400,000 is NOT still the bank's money.

Thats stupid, beyond tithes and offering, some people donate more than is nessicary as a donation, there are some rich people in the church, some property has been given to the church when a member or non-member dies. The Church has suffered dire financial circumstances at various times during its history, the church has gotten wise about money as you can see in our current practices, such as paying cash for everything and not borrowing money.

The church can pay for non-church things because they have set up a non-church fund for those particular things, which people give money for it to be used. The Church makes investments, cause to just put it in Treasury bonds would be fiscally irresponsible. Suppose it did originate from tithing, here is how it would work, its called "perpetual motion". It spends some energy to produce more energy, then takes what it needs to keep moving, invests it back, and then uses the surplus on other things.

[dude]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a corporation taking money and reinvesting it in order to make more money.

Is this the corporate version of "give a man a fish, feed him for a day,,,,,but teach him to fish, feed him for a lifetime" gig?

I guess I can live with that. The ends justify the means sort of thing? As long as the "ends" actually come. What I mean by that is at some point, in a non-profit organization, you actually have to start giving the money away, or "spending" it. I truly am grateful for the frugal use (and growth) of our tithing funds (parable of the talents has been used), but at what point can you start really putting it to use and loosen the belt a little? This is always a fine line and dilemma for those leading charitable organizations, keep the organization strong while still giving a healthy portion away. Just because our church leaders don't drive Mercedes like the wealthy super-church pastors of protestantism, doesn't mean it's okay to horde wealth.

Pres. Hinckley wisely initiated one of the greatest spending sprees in church history when he exploded the temple building and the new Conference Center, when the church's accountants, even as frugal as they are, hinted to him that church coffers were so full we had enough to last until the second coming (my words, not theirs). I think our leaders spend cautiously, and I"m glad for that, but I wouldn't mind seeing those coffers opened again to see some humanitarian spending on a massive scale.

In support of SleepingWillow, I admit that I too was a little surprised to see how low in percentage our outside donations are. Even if those numbers are 10-fold off, it seems we can afford more. I'd support that.

[USU78]

One of the things we need to keep in mind in any discussion about the Church's use of tithing funds (once again, we must not conflate those with the for-profit funds on which the Church pays taxes to the feds, state, county, and city), is that the Church is much larger than Salt Lake County.

Building and giving occur worldwide . . . but always from the general funds in the case of the former and from fast offerings + special gifts (and, I believe, sometimes general funds) for the latter. Moreover, the Church gives directly to outfits like Catholic Charities, the Red Cross, the Red Crescent and United Way that the Church has found, over the years, can be relied upon to use donated moneys wisely and well.

Just because you see Temple Square, the Administrative Campus, and the two downtown malls in Salt Lake City, don't think you see everything. There are a lot of folks who need help, and help is given at the Ward, Stake, and Church level.

[The Traveler]

Okay: I read some of the post -but not all. I cannot believe the stupidity of some people. Following the logic of some we should all be really upset with G-d for using up so much energy in the "Big Bang" and creating the universe - most of which no body even uses. G-d could of used all the creative resources and helped the poor. But instead he created the universe. How stupid is G-d?

All I ask is that someone point out to me the religious organization that is doing a better job (more successful) of taking care or it's poor? What church has a better program for the poor? And while you are answering that question answer this one last question - Is the best way to help the poor - to just give them money or to create jobs and give the poor an opportunity to earn a dignified living?

The Traveler

[dude]

All I ask is that someone point out to me the religious organization that is doing a better job (more successful) of taking care or it's poor? What church has a better program for the poor? And while you are answering that question answer this one last question - Is the best way to help the poor - to just give them money or to create jobs and give the poor an opportunity to earn a dignified living?

Good questions.

It also reminds me that nobody has discussed the issue you mentioned: taking care of OUR poor.

I think we do a great job of taking care of OUR poor. This is noble and can't be matched by any other church.

When do we start on the other poor?

Probably isn't the mission of the church?

This is the controversial "carrot" that missionaries use in third world countries.