Church Investment In Downtown Slc

[GRW]

It's less than one half of one percent? My heavens... there are for-profit corporations that donate more than that.

In fairness, that's a calculation based solely on estimates, which is why I also calculated the number if you cut the church's income by 75 percent.

Of course, we are forced to estimate because...well, you know.

[cucamonga]

Dang nabbit!!! Feet stomping! Highly irritated!!! I just posted about this!!!

NO!!, the Church is NOT going to "spend" these funds. Do you understand the difference between spending money and investing it?!! Yes, the money spent on the poor was indeed "spent"--it's gone, and it's not coming back. That's OK--we're supposed to help the poor. But the money used to improve the downtown area is NOT "spent". It is used to make capital improvements to these facilities. Say these facilities are now worth $1B, and the Church invests another $1B in improvements. When you are done, you end up with facilities are that are worth maybe $2.5B. You haven't lost anything--you've gained (in my example) $0.5B. And then you bring in perhaps $200M a year in revenue from these properties, each and every year, that the Church can spend on helping the poor, building Church buildings, building temples, etc.

Do you understand the difference here?

I think alot of critics would rather the money be reinvested back into the Pepsi Co.

or maybe the church should just get a bigger mattress.

[GRW]

or maybe the church should just get a bigger mattress.

Did I suggest that the church NOT invest its money? Not at all. Are there ways to invest $1 to 1.5 billion that could be profitable AND do more social good in the world than a shopping mall in the heart of a prosperous city in the most prosperous nation in the world? Umm. Yeah.

Look, the church does a lot of good, no doubt about it. But as I said before, this is one more thing, among many, that screams in my brain that the church is not personally led by Jesus Christ.

That doesn't make it bad. It just makes it (in my judgment) not true in the sense the church claims to be true.

[Yong Xi]

Ironically, so are you. Do you have evidence of the origin of the money?

How about the statement at the most recent General Conference by President Hinckley that no tithing money is being used for this project. Are you saying that he was lying?

Logically, solely based on the available hard evidence that I am familiar with (none), I cannot say whether he is lying.

Logically, solely based on the hard evidence you are familiar with, can you say he was telling the truth?

I would like to hear from believers a good definition of "The Lord's Money". Can anyone define that for me?

Where does it come from and what does it include?

[justmakingmymark]

I don't have a problem with the Church using my tithing for commercial efforts, becasue if I'd have left the church years ago. Where I have a problem is in terms of the way they conduct their business practices. I've lived in "zion" for years and have had relatives and know others who have transacted business with the church. Let's put it lightly, the brethern have insulated themselves to the point that many of them have no idea how the bureaucracy handles business on a day to day level.

Furthermore the project in SLC further points to the disconnect that many brethern have in regards to what happens on Sunday and what happens Monday thru Saturday.

A good friend of mine is in a bishopric with one of owners of an establishment that has had a lease with the church for over 60 years. He was forcefully pushed out of his lease with a compensation package that was far from "Fair". The church bureaucracy then uses the age old, "Your doing this for the church brother", and your expected to recieve less then fair compensation for the work of your brow, but "non-believers" like Nordstroms are given terms so they can be the anchor store in this new mall. Nordstroms if I remember is not owned or related to the church in any manner, and if you were to look up the definition for Lehi's dream of a great and spacious buidling, then look no farther then Nordstroms.

Personally I pay most of my "Tithes" to fast offerings. I know those are going to people who deserve it. If I want to "build the kingdom", then I pay to the building funds. I'm sure my 10% will not be missed in the general fund, and the bureaucracy can survive on the investment returns from the tithing I paid for so many years!

[Avatar4321]

There seems to be alot of people who think they can dictate what others can do with their money. its quite astounding.

[Beowulf]

I explained WHY the Church is sprucing up SLC.

Nobody listened.

Instead they go on their standard rants about starving children (never pausing to do anything about it themselves, btw) and about how the Church should not be in the business of being in business. Or about how tithing is involved, when the Church has explicitly stated countless times that tithing is NOT involved.

Go back and read what I wrote. I will not say it again.

As the Japanese say:

IIKAGEN NI SHIRO!

Beowulf

Note to moderators: This is not a vulgar term, although since English is a more vulgar language than Japanese is, it might need to be translated as a vulgarity. My apologies in advance.

[thesometimesaint]

Matthew 25:14-30 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)

Copyright

[TAK]

What does God need? Do He even need us? Is tithing for God or for us?

I doubt God needs anything but as to the rich God has said..

Wo unto you rich men, that will not give your substance to the poor, for your riches will canker your souls; and this shall be your lamentation in the day of visitation, and of judgment, and of indignation..

[selek]

I doubt God needs anything but as to the rich God has said..

Wo unto you rich men, that will not give your substance to the poor, for your riches will canker your souls; and this shall be your lamentation in the day of visitation, and of judgment, and of indignation..

Nice- an eloquent quote (presumably from the scriptures) that sets up both a straw man and both implies hypocrisy and flatly dismisses the billions that the Church does contribute to the aid of the poor and suffering.

Three in one! Nice, neat, and compact. Now all you have to do, Tak, is wipe and flush and your contribution will be completely stereotypical of your posts.

[TAK]

Nice- an eloquent quote (presumably from the scriptures) that sets up both a straw man and both implies hypocrisy and flatly dismisses the billions that the Church does contribute to the aid of the poor and suffering.

REALLY?? Billions ?? - "billions that the Church does contribute to the aid of the poor".. Prove it

[selek]

REALLY?? Billions ?? - "billions that the Church does contribute to the aid of the poor".. Prove it

Church Aids More Than 200 Brazilian Hospitals

Sixty thousand Brazilian Church members have concluded a four-month service project that provided aid to more than 200 hospitals in 150 cities throughout Brazil.

Church members held workshops and sewing bees in which they produced approximately 150,000 items to be donated to local hospitals. The items included bedsheets, shoe coverings, gowns, pillowcases, and infant clothing.

Items such as bedsheets are scarce for many hospitals in Brazil, as most funds go toward medications, hospital equipment, and employee salaries. And since hospital clothing is subjected to sterilization up to four times daily, the clothing has to be replaced frequently.

In one month Restaura

[thesometimesaint]

* "Modern-day humanitarian effort is a wonderful manifestation of the charity that burns within the souls of those whose hearts are tender and whose hands are willing to help. This selfless service truly demonstrates the pure love of Christ" (H. David Burton, Presiding Bishop of the Church).

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints provides aid and assistance to those in need all around the world. LDS Philanthropiescoordinates the funds donated to the Church for humanitarian aid and other educational and charitable purposes.

Most of the funds donated through LDS Philanthropies are given by members of the Church. Members have been taught that Christ was the perfect example and that He provided service and help to those in need. The scriptures state that charity is the pure love of Christ, and those who express charity in their daily lives can find peace and happiness (see Moroni 7:47).

Gordon B. Hinckley, President of the Church, has made the following comments about the Church's humanitarian efforts:

I am deeply grateful that as a Church we are extending humanitarian aid when there is sore distress. We have done a great deal and have blessed the lives of many people who are not of our faith but who also are children of our Father. We will continue to do so for as long as we have the means. To all who have contributed to this effort we express our thanks (Gordon B. Hinckley, â??Thanks to the Lord for His Blessings,â? Ensign, May 1999, 88).

Now, as a Church we have worked with others in lifting the sorrow and sufferings of those who are in distress. Our humanitarian efforts have literally blessed the lives of countless thousands not of our faith. In the terrible tsunami disaster, and in other disasters incident to conflict, disease, and hunger, we have done a great and marvelous work assisting others without worrying about who gets the credit. In February of this year the president of the American Red Cross presented to the Church the Circle of Humanitarians Award, which is the highest honor given by them. It is in recognition of the effort of the Church to extend the vaccination against measles to thousands and thousands of young people.... Countless lives have been saved, and much pain and misery have been avoided ... To the extent made possible by resources which come from the generosity of our people, we are reaching down to lift those in distress. Surely the Lord is blessing us as a people, and we must reach out to bless His needy wherever they may be (Gordon B. Hinckley, â??Closing Remarks,â? Ensign, May 2005, 102).

The Church's efforts through LDS Philanthropies include Humanitarian Services, as well as programs to help people around the world attain better educations (such as the Perpetual Education Fund) and find employment opportunities in their area.

[edit]

LDS Humanitarian Services

Humanitarian Services is just one department of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints served by LDS Philanthropies. The Church throughout its history has always provided for those in need, but the first permanent humanitarian organization of the Church was created in 1955 at Brigham Young University. The Presiding Bishop of the Church, H. David Burton, who has the responsibility of overseeing LDS Philanthropies said,

Present priorities include care of the world's poor and a greatly expanded employment support to elevate men and women from circumstances of need to the blessings of self-reliance. Gifts, bequests, and endowments for these initiatives extend personal reach around the globe to help victims of disasters, homelessness, hunger, and disease. Teachers receive needed training, facilities, textbooks, and supplies, weapons in their war against ignorance, poverty, and hopelessness. Orphans and street children find relief from the daily struggle to survive. Job training opens doors of opportunity. Micro-enterprise turns ingenuity into prosperity. Jobs appear where there were no jobs before. The unemployed find stability; the underemployed begin to realize their greater potential and create the surpluses that transform them from receivers to givers. These are effective opportunities, those that build lives. In caring for the world's poor and assisting with employment needs, we focus on actions that are both effective and cost effective. These two criteria ensure opportunities to give with confidence (H. David Burton, "Presiding Bishop's Report," 2005).

Within Humanitarian Services there are specific organizations to which individuals can donate time, money, or supplies:

* Emergency Response

* Wheelchair Distribution

* Clean Water

* Neonatal Resuscitation Training

* Vision Treatment Training.

Money and items can also be donated to the Humanitarian General Fund where the money or supplies are then given to an area that is in need.

Emergency Response is the part of the Churchâ??s humanitarian efforts that most people are aware of. Funds and supplies in this area are used to help victims of natural disasters such as earthquakes, floods, droughts, tornados, and hurricanes, as well as other disasters due to wars or political unrest. Supplies in this area are gathered and stored before a crisis so that supplies can be sent within literally hours of an emergency. Volunteers are also on call so that if they are needed they can be reached and organized within a few hours.

Wheelchair Distribution is also crucial to helping those in need. Studies estimate that only one percent of people in the world who are physically disabled have a wheelchair. For the rest, being without a wheelchair means that adults cannot provide for themselves or their families, and children are often unable to attend school. By providing wheelchairs to those in need, the Church is able to give the lifelong gifts of self-reliance, education, and even self-respect.

The Clean Water service provides clean water and wells to people who otherwise would most likely contract deadly diseases because of polluted water. Studies estimate that nearly 3 million people, mostly children, die each year from diseases related to unsanitary water.

The Neonatal Resuscitation program sends doctors and volunteers to areas where infant mortality rates are high. They are able to teach people in the area how to resuscitate newborns as well as provide simple medical equipment. This service is greatly needed as it is estimated that 120 million newborns each year suffer from asphyxia during birth. Nearly 90,000 of these infants die because those who care for them have not been trained how to resuscitate them.

The Vision Treatment Training program teaches facilities and medical personal in developing countries how to treat preventable or reversible blindness. There are 45 million people in the world who are blind, and in developing countries being blind often means poverty. Saving a person's sight may very well save them and their families.

[edit]

Facts regarding the LDS Humanitarian Program

Once a month, faithful members of the Church fast, typically skipping two meals. The cost of the meals (or more if the individual can afford it) is given to care for the poor. Because of this practice, the Utah government welfare spending is very low. Members of other faiths also benefit through LDS charity work.

The Church owns 400 welfare farms and 220 canneries/welfare storehouses to care for the poor. Members volunteer their time to staff these facilities. In 2003, over half a million man-hours were donated. One Church farm in Florida, the world's largest beef ranch, is over 312,000 acres.

The Church also has an extensive program to help the unemployed. In 2003, Church employment centers helped 85,000 people in the United States and Canada find employment. About the same number of jobs were found for members of the Church in foreign countries.

LDS Family Services, a Church organization, has 64 offices to provide adoption, foster care, and counseling services.

46 Church-operated thrift stores function in part to provide employment for the disadvantaged/disabled.

The LDS Church has sponsored Boy Scout troops since 1913. About 23% of all Scout troops in the U.S. are LDS-sponsored.

The Church has sent relief to victims of over 150 disasters since 1986 alone. Aid is provided regardless of any consideration, including religion, ethnicity, and nationality, and is valued in the tens of millions of dollars annually. In the last 20 years, 200 million pounds of food, clothing, and medicine were donated in 147 countries, almost all to members of other faiths. Aid is often made to countries where Mormon missionaries are banned by law. The LDS Church is able to send relief quickly because there is no need to wait for donations or purchase supplies. Church members donate regularly, and supplies are stored at Salt Lake and elsewhere, ready for distribution. The LDS Church also works with and donates extensively to other, non-LDS charities. While the Church's specific humanitarian programs are too numerous to list here, here's a few highlights:

* In 2001 the Church established what it calls the â??Perpetual Education Fund.â? Low-rate college loans are made to impoverished students in the developing world, students that could not otherwise obtain a good education. Over 10,000 loans have been made to date, and the project is expanding.

* The Church played an important role in the 2004 Asian-tsunami relief efforts. After working to address the population's immediate needs, the Church began working towards long-term progress, including livelihood restoration, health-care improvement (including operating-room construction, medical-equipment supply, and trauma counseling), and the reconstruction of community buildings (including homes, hospitals, schools, and mosques). In all, millions of dollars have been invested in this type of long-term aid.

* The Church has an extensive vision program in the developing world, where local health-care professionals are provided with the necessary training and equipment to treat vision problems. Under this program, 20,000 individuals have received eye treatment at a cost of one million dollars.

* Because world-wide only one percent of all who need wheelchairs have access to one, the Church has distributed over 100,000 chairs to the disabled in developing nations at a cost of $6.8 million.

* The Church has helped 1.8 million people in over 1,000 communities gain access to clean water at an average cost of only $2.50 per person. This service has included digging wells, providing water storage and delivery systems, and installing water purification systems. Mostly local labor was used, and local community leaders were trained in how to maintain the new facilities.

* At a cost of $3.5 million, the Church has sent doctors to developing nations to train local health-care professionals in neonatal resuscitation. Neonatal deaths due to breathing problems cost one million infant lives a year.

* Working with international partners (the American Red Cross, the United Nations Foundation, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, United Nations Childrenâ??s Fund, World Health Organization, and International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies), the Church donated $3 million to work towards providing measles vaccinations for 200 million children in 40 African countries.

* Church members donated 10,000 days of labor to assist Hurricane Katrina victims.

* The Church offers small-business loans to the impoverished in developing countries.

* So what's a typical year like? Take 2004...â??In 2004, the Church provided $31.1 million (USD) in cash and materials in response to the hurricanes in Florida and the Caribbean, tsunamis in South Asia, war in Iraq, flooding in Colombia, and 110 other disasters.â?

The Church has over 5,000 service missionaries (another site said 3,000) that work without pay to aid the poor.

Aside from providing service missionaries, the Church also has 61,000 proselytizing missionaries in over 300 missions in 165 countries, distinct from those mentioned above, that also work without pay. Trained in 17 missionary training centers scattered across the globe, these proselytizing missionaries provide those who are seeking God with more information about our beliefs. Roughly 93% of LDS missionaries are college-age, and 22% are female. Proselytizing missionaries are instructed to donate half a day each week doing non-proselytizing community service.

* Some are offended by this missionary program, likely because they confuse our religion with others that proselytize more aggressively.

* Mormon missionaries are instructed not to aggressively force their beliefs on others but instead to find and teach those interested in our message. While an occasional Mormon missionary many erroneously fail to follow this instruction, most follow it closely.

* Truth be told, this missionary activity is probably the most impressive of the Church's humanitarian programs. Many individuals who were seeking God have been forever enriched because a Mormon missionary left the comfort of his home to share something that had brought him great joy.

LDS ecclesiastical leaders also work voluntarily and are not paid by the Church. Much of the janitorial staff is paid, as well as Church auditors and those in other non-ecclesiastical positions.

[phaedrus ut]

The question of whether tithing monies were used or not is completely irrelevant. No matter where it came from, it is the Lord's money, right?

Since 1984, according to the Deseret News (December 29, 2005), a church spokesman stated that â??the LDS Church has donated nearly $750 million in cash and goods to people in need in more than 150 countries.â? That seems to be an obviously wonderful thing.

Lets break down the contributions from the church for these 20 years. With 12-13 million members now lets assume a median of 6 million members for the past 20 years. Let's also assume a 35% activity rate. That's 2.1 million active members for those 20 years. 2.1 million members paying $2 each a month as a fast offering would pay $4.2 million per month, $50.4 million per year, and $1.008 billion over 20 years.

Second, many donations made by the church are donations in kind of clothing, goods, and materials. Those who live in the west are probably familiar with Deseret Industries. There are 46 stores in the western states accepting donations of goods to the church. When the church redonates the "second hand" goods it's seen as humanitarian. Here is a recent example in the news.

The latest problematic donation was made by Salt Lake City, Utah-based LDS Philanthropies, a charitable arm of the Mormon Church. The group's contribution of US $4 million worth of supplies was sent to mainland China's largest non-governmental charity group, China Charity Federation, and arrived on November 7. Two of the four containers were delivered to Wuhan City in Hubei Province, one to Hefei City in Anhui Province, and one to Beijing.

It was Anhui authorities who first discovered the problem. According to Xinhua News Agency, four personnel from the Anhui Entry-Exit Inspection and Quarantine Bureau examined the container between November 9 and 11. The load of 926 boxes, comprising $114,542 worth of supplies, included 47 boxes of expired medical supplies, 60 boxes of medical supplies without expiration dates, 2 boxes of second-hand medical equipment, 2 boxes of expired detergents, 87 boxes of used children's items, and 41 sets of used rehabilitation equipment?adding up to 239 boxes of unusable supplies or equipment.

The three loads sent to Beijing and Wuhan fared no better. They contained not only expired and used supplies, but also suspiciously red-stained, mildewed, torn, or faded bedding and clothing. The donations were intended to be used for setting up health clinics for orphanages. Upon discovery of the poor-quality items, all four containers were resealed and sent back to the United States on December 13, according to Beijing News.

Yes the church does active philantrophy but simple estimates show this is easily covered by a $2 monthly fast offering from only 1/3 of the membership and the "in kind" donations dropped off at the 46 locations of DI.

Phaedrus

[Kemara]

Sleeping Willow

Well, gee, that's settled. Jesus is for billion dollar shopping malls.

Yes of course He is, isnâ??t it obvious?

So usury is a commandment?

Is usury wrong? Is usury good? Would the servant have been considered more than faithless had he recieved usury?

The more I learnâ?¦

It can happen, you never know. And thank you for your well thought out and reasoned response, I so look forward to responses that amount to nothing more than a "doh" - very Homer of you.

GRW

You've posted two scriptures as if their relevance is self-evident. Personally, I fail to see much relevance. But I never claimed to be the brightest bulb in the lamp, so feel free to increase my wattage.

Sorry but bulb wattage is fixed, some are high some are low.

In the meantime, here is my take:...In the first scripture, Jesus defends a woman's actions in a very specific circumstance. He makes no blanket statement about how to spend your wealth....The second scripture is a parable that primarily is not about how and whether to help the poor.

What the scripture makes clear to those bulbs with enough wattage to comprehend is the fact that the Savior makes a blanket statement that it is not wrong to spend money on doing things other than helping the poor even when then are poor among us. What is clear through his rebuke is that man does not have the capacity to make the call of what is good and what is not when it comes to spending money on things other than the poor. What is clear is that, like you, those that were rebuked would not have considered the act as one pleasing to or even condoned by deity â?? little did they know. What is clear is that the Savior was more than happy for money to be spent on what some would consider a frivolous and wasteful exercise. What is clear is that the Lord gave his property to his servants and left the property in their care to be used with their wisdom. What is clear is that the Lord considered those servants who were most useful in increasing his property as faithful servants. What is clear is that the Lord is able to communicate his pleasure and displeasure with the way his servants handle his property. What is clear is that those who take it upon themselves to steady the ark should keep their hands in their own pockets.

I just said that I cannot imagine that Jesus would have spent more on a shopping mall than he would have spent on the poor in the preceeding 20 years.

Could you imagine a Jesus that ensured He himself was fed yet fed the poor himself very rarely even though all it would take was a snap of his fingers. Could you imagine a Jesus that made sure he was fit and healthy and yet cured others only rarely even though all it would take was a snap of his fingers. Could you imagine a Jesus that was quite happy to raise someone he loved from the dead but watched others die and do nothing even though all it would take was a snap of his fingers. During His entire life how many poor people did He help with His trillion dollar power. Heck, why are there any poor or afflicted at all, surely with a snap of His fingers it would all be sovled. Fortuneately it doesnâ??t matter what you imagine about Jesus, He is not about to conform to your expectations and its obvious you have no idea what His are.

If one takes a superficial view of the parable, one may conclude that the church is not doing anything immoral by making a good investment and seeking a profit.

Please, give us the detail.

[Kemara]

Yes the church does active philantrophy but simple estimates show this is easily covered by a $2 monthly fast offering from only 1/3...Phaedrus

And yet it would still be more than most of the whingers on this thread would have donated.

[SlackTime]

I have yet to see any one of the advocates of the tithing "seed money" view document or even substantiate the claim. The Church has been the recipient of funds other than tithing funds from the days of Joseph Smith.

If you can't substantiate the claim then we'll just have to believe the Church when it says that no tithing funds are used.

-SlackTime

[SleepingWillow]

And yet it would still be more than most of the whingers on this thread would have donated.

It's whiners, not whingers, Mr. High Wattage.

It doesn't take a high-wattage bulb to decide that a church that donates .5-2% of its income to helping the poor and needy is not run personally by the Christ most of us are familiar with. You seem to worship a different Christ--a Christ that would be more at home running a company like Exxon than administering to the poor.

[SleepingWillow]

I have yet to see any one of the advocates of the tithing "seed money" view document or even substantiate the claim. The Church has been the recipient of funds other than tithing funds from the days of Joseph Smith.

If you can't substantiate the claim then we'll just have to believe the Church when it says that no tithing funds are used.

-SlackTime

You know, the more I think about it, who really cares if it's tithing funds used or not? The point is, the Church controls the use of the funds it currently has. It chooses to continue to pour them back into business pursuits even as my brother on a mission has to eat bananas and ice in a blender because the Church won't give him enough money to eat properly.

[SolarPowered]

... --a Christ that would be more at home running a company like Exxon than administering to the poor.

What's wrong with running a company like Exxon? Can't a person run Exxon, and administer to the poor? Or is this an either/or thing?

[SleepingWillow]

What's wrong with running a company like Exxon? Can't a person run Exxon, and administer to the poor? Or is this an either/or thing?

But my point is the Church IS Exxon.

When I was active, and the perception of everyone else I knew, was that the Church was a very charitable organization--certainly it was donating more than .5%-2% to charity. The church should be more like "Newman's Own" than "Exxon."

[SlackTime]

You know, the more I think about it, who really cares if it's tithing funds used or not? The point is, the Church controls the use of the funds it currently has. It chooses to continue to pour them back into business pursuits even as my brother on a mission has to eat bananas and ice in a blender because the Church won't give him enough money to eat properly.

Ah, your poor brother

Having served on a mission myself and sent my son on a mission I know how tough it can be. You should also know that money is sent by the Church to sustain the Elders and Sisters serving in a mission. In my son's mission that money was then allocated to the missionaries by the Assistants to the President. There was a time when I had to get on the phone to the President to get him to look into how the money was being distributed. If the Mission President isn't paying attention, the process can be messed up, it is the one area of finance in the Church that I'd agree needs better oversight. Still, my son didn't starve, and he had a successful mission experience. Buck up, your brother will live.

-SlackTime

[SolarPowered]

But my point is the Church IS Exxon.

You say that with a venom in your writing that indicates that you believe that Exxon is the embodiment of evil. I think that says a lot about the worldview you're coming from.

From my point of view, the Church is simply being a good steward of the resources it has.

As I've pointed out several times, this money isn't "spent", it's simply "savings". If you have $100, you could spend it on dinner for two at a really restaurant, or you could save it by putting it in a savings account, so that you have it for a rainy day. What the Church is doing here is simply saving its resources for a rainy day.

And we know from the scriptures that some very "rainy" days are coming.

As far as ministering to the poor, it appears to me that the Church is doing about as much as it reasonably able to do at this time. What more would you have the Church do, that it is not already doing? (Hint: "Give all the money to UNICEF to squader on socialist agenda items" will not be preceived by me as a rational response.)

[thesometimesaint]

My son went to Zimbabwe on his mission. He ate reasonably well(Not great because of the constant devaluation of the Zimbabwean dollar) but well none the less and they still shared their meals with others.

[SleepingWillow]

You say that with a venom in your writing that indicates that you believe that Exxon is the embodiment of evil. I think that says a lot about the worldview you're coming from.

You would do well to stop attributing "venom" and "hate" on my part. I never said Exxon is the embodiment of evil. It's simply a for-profit business--something I think the Church should not be.

As far as ministering to the poor, it appears to me that the Church is doing about as much as it reasonably able to do at this time.

You really think .5-2% is the best the Church could do?