Church Investment In Downtown Slc

[thesometimesaint]

SleepingWillow

"You really think .5-2% is the best the Church could do?"

CFR

[Scott Lloyd]

It's whiners, not whingers, Mr. High Wattage.

Check a good dictionary. Whinge is a mainly British term that means "to whine" or "to complain."

Your cultural awareness is about as keen and compelling as your carping and fault-finding on this thread.

[thesometimesaint]

SleepingWillow

The American Heritage

[Confidential Informant]

You really think .5-2% is the best the Church could do?

I'd also like to see some actually reference on this too.

Moreover, does this figure include all the fast offerings that are distributed on ward and stake level to individual members in need? Or does it represent only that part that is give with non-fast offering funds to non-lds recipients?

C.I.

[SleepingWillow]

Check a good dictionary. Whinge is a mainly British term that means "to whine" or "to complain."

Your cultural awareness is about as keen and compelling as your carping and fault-finding on this thread.

I've made what I think are salient points about the Church's misappropriation of the Lord's money, while you and others have been resorting to crass personal insults.

[Scott Lloyd]

I'd also like to see some actually reference on this too.

Moreover, does this figure include all the fast offerings that are distributed on ward and stake level to individual members in need? Or does it represent only that part that is give with non-fast offering funds to non-lds recipients?

C.I.

Good question. And it doesn't begin to take in what Church members do informally, on their own initiative.

At a recent event I covered, Elder Dallin H. Oaks called this "people-to-people" giving.

The Church teaches its members to "do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness" (D&C 58:27).

Of course, this will never impress the fault-finders, who tend only to view things done on an institutional basis as genuine charity, and who have all manner of advice to dole out about how other people/groups should spend their money.

[Wonka]

Doesn't the money spent on humanitarian projects come mainly from fast offerings and humanitarian aid, and not from tithing? If the church isn't spending enough on humanitarian aid, then maybe it's because the members aren't donating enough.

[SleepingWillow]

SleepingWillow

"You really think .5-2% is the best the Church could do?"

CFR

"Since 1984, according to the Deseret News (December 29, 2005), a church spokesman stated that â??the LDS Church has donated nearly $750 million in cash and goods to people in need in more than 150 countries.â?" - GRW

All we can do is rough estimates because the Church will not disclose its finances publicly--thus the fudge factor of 4x with respect to the Church's total income.

[Scott Lloyd]

I've made what I think are salient points about the Church's misappropriation of the Lord's money, while you and others have been resorting to crass personal insults.

And your "Mr. High Wattage" remark was a sterling example of restraint?

Excuse me for responding in kind.

[SleepingWillow]

Good question. And it doesn't begin to take in what Church members do informally, on their own initiative.

At a recent event I covered, Elder Dallin H. Oaks called this "people-to-people" giving.

The Church teaches its members to "do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness" (D&C 58:27).

Of course, this will never impress the fault-finders, who tend only to view things done on an institutional basis as genuine charity, and who have all manner of advice to dole out about how other people/groups should spend their money.

Nobody is criticizing the members, so it's a red herring to through this out there.

[TAK]

Selek

Especially considering that the $169.6 and $660 million figures are for recent disasters.

Actually thatâ??s not recent. According to Church statistics from 1985 to 2005 it has given 170 million in cash and 660 million in material assistance to various efforts and causes. That averages out to about 8.5 million a year in cash. From what you copied and pasted I saw a lot of member contributions in labor not much in terms actual cash. Certainly not billions in cash but I suppose you never stated cash. It is fortunate church leaders can rely on the members so the cash can be diverted to other meaningful projects such as a mall. Opps.. Thats right, no tithing money was used..

[SleepingWillow]

And your "Mr. High Wattage" remark was a sterling example of restraint?

Excuse me for responding in kind.

He referred to himself as a high wattage bulb.

[Scott Lloyd]

Nobody is criticizing the members, so it's a red herring to through this out there.

I'm not saying you're criticizing them; I'm saying you're failing to take what they do into account.

By the way, as long as correcting others' language is the order of the day here, I will mention that the word is throw, not "through."

[Scott Lloyd]

He referred to himself as a high wattage bulb.

Which makes your usage and tone excusable. Got it.

[SleepingWillow]

I'm not saying you're criticizing them; I'm saying you're failing to take what they do into account.

Apparently, the $750 million figure I quoted takes that into account. So the church is actually spending a lot less money on charity than I previously thought.

Which makes your usage and tone excusable. Got it.

Whereas you had absolutely no excuse for your treatment of me.

[SlackTime]

"Since 1984, according to the Deseret News (December 29, 2005), a church spokesman stated that â??the LDS Church has donated nearly $750 million in cash and goods to people in need in more than 150 countries.â?" - GRW

All we can do is rough estimates because the Church will not disclose its finances publicly--thus the fudge factor of 4x with respect to the Church's total income.

But see this is a problem. You are throwing all the various funds of the Church into a single bucket and then complaining that the portion for welfare is too small.

I DON'T PAY TITHING FOR THE PURPOSES OF WELFARE AND THE POOR!!! I PAY FAST OFFERINGS FOR THAT AND THE CHURCH SHOULDN'T TAKE TITHING AND USE IT FOR PURPOSES IT ISN'T FOR!

100% of the fast offerings are used to relieve the poor. Someone earlier laughingly called it $2 a month. Maybe for some it is. For me it is closer to $30 a month, and when the Church indicates special needs it is much higher!

Tithing is used to pay for the infrastructure of the church. Chapels, Temples, travel and needs of the General Authorities, Church Office Bldg and workers, Library Materials, Budgets, Custodial services, etc, etc.

I am very pleased with the way the Lord's money is handled. I hope that the Lord is too as that is who those who handle the money will have to answer to.

I donate to fast offerings, but I pay tithing. Tithing is the Lord's money that I return to Him, fast offerings are my money that I give to alleviate the needs of the poor and needy. Tithing is not a donation.

-SlackTime

[Scott Lloyd]

Apparently, the $750 million figure I quoted takes that into account. So the church is actually spending a lot less money on charity than I previously thought.

Whereas you had absolutely no excuse for your treatment of me.

How could the figure take it into account? I'm talking about what members do on their own initiative, efforts that are not reported to the Church or anybody else for that matter.

You're not making sense.

[SleepingWillow]

How could the figure take it into account? I'm talking about what members do on their own initiative, efforts that are not reported to the Church or anybody else for that matter.

You're not making sense.

What does that have to do with the Church as an institution?

[Scott Lloyd]

Whereas you had absolutely no excuse for your treatment of me.

What I did was to point out that you were off-base to twit someone for the use of a dictionary-recognized term. And I opined that your fault-finding on this thread has been less than compelling.

I don't see any of that as being particularly abusive. This is a debate-oriented board, and I stand by what I've said.

[caudicus]

Maybe this has been covered, so feel free to ignore me or point me in the right direction.

What are the sources of financial income for the church?

1. Tithing/Donations

2. ???

[Scott Lloyd]

What does that have to do with the Church as an institution?

The Church is, among other things, a global community of like-minded believers who, by-and-large, do good in a number of ways, formal and informal, institutional and not. They also believe in the Church's broader mission and feel that it must be kept strong so as to accomplish that mission. Part of keeping it strong is to safeguard the viability and wholesomeness of the environs around its headquarter properties. If prudent investment of commercial funds is a means toward that end, it's OK with me. And I won't be fazed when outsiders find fault with it.

[SleepingWillow]

What I did was to point out that you were off-base to tweak someone for the use of a dictionary-recognized term. And I opined that your fault-finding on this thread has been less than compelling.

I don't see any of that as being particularly abusive. This is a debate-oriented board, and I stand by what I've said.

Less than compelling only because you approach this situation that the Church can do no wrong. Your conclusions are preset and you will bend the facts to fit them.

The Church is, among other things, a global community of like-minded believers who, by-and-large, who do good in a number of ways, formal and informal, institutional and not. They also believe in the Church's broader mission and feel that it must be kept strong so as to accomplish that mission. Part of keeping it strong is to safeguard the viability and wholesomeness of the environs around its headquarter properties. If prudent investment of commercial funds is a means toward that end, it's OK with me. And I won't be fazed when outsiders find fault with it.

Where is your evidence that Church-goers donate more of their time to "good deeds" than non-Church-goers?

[Scott Lloyd]

Maybe this has been covered, so feel free to ignore me or point me in the right direction.

What are the sources of financial income for the church?

1. Tithing/Donations

2. ???

The Church owns a number of commercial enterprises which are self-sustaining. The downtown development apparently is being funded from the proceeds of those commercial enterprises.

[Scott Lloyd]

Less than compelling only because you approach this situation that the Church can do no wrong. Your conclusions are preset and you will bend the facts to fit them.

I approach it from the perspective that it has done no wrong that you have yet identified.

Where is your evidence that Church-goers donate more of their time to "good deeds" than non-Church-goers?

Where have I made such an assertion?

By the way, how much of your income do you donate to charitable causes and/or groups whose purpose and mission you passionately believe in? Does it even approach 10 percent?

[SleepingWillow]

I approach it from the perspective that it has done no wrong that you have yet identified.

Donating .5-2% of its profits to charity is an outrage. I rather suspect that is the reason it refuses to release its financial records--the Church would become a laughingstock.