Church Investment In Downtown Slc

[USU78]

Are you telling me that the $5 billion per year income the Mormon church receives ever year is used up entirely on ecclesiastical expenses?

CFR on $5B.

Or would you be open to the possibility that it takes the leftover income and invests it in whatever it deems as a reasonable profit-making venture?

You keep making that assertion and expect us to accept it. Lay down, Pilgrim!

[Scott Lloyd]

Who make mistakes. Because they're human. Maybe the Mormon church's membership would be more inclined to be involved with the institutions money if they actually knew how it was used. I don't know. I don't know because it doesn't happen. Which seems odd.

Regardless, the financial entity isn't going to change its business practices... so this part of the conversation is fruitless.

In nearly 180 years of anti-Mormonism, no one has yet found any basis for accusing the Church leaders of malfeasance or misappropriation with regard to tithing funds.

I'm not worried.

[Scott Lloyd]

I truly find it hard to believe that the same being who got righteously indignant at the commingling of commerce and worship when he cleansed the temple in Jerusalem is also be the world-wide leader of a "church" with multi-billion dollar financial assets and opaque accounting practices. (In fact it was the only recorded instance of Christ being so outraged that his actions approached violence.)

Seems to be polar opposites to me.

It was Christ who instituted the law of tithing in the first place. He never expected nor mandated that his kingdom on earth be administered without resources.

[antishock8]

In nearly 180 years of anti-Mormonism, no one has yet found any basis for accusing the Church leaders of malfeasance or misappropriation with regard to tithing funds.

I'm not worried.

How would you know? You're not allowed to see anything... really.

[Knight who says Ne]

I truly find it hard to believe that the same being who got righteously indignant at the commingling of commerce and worship when he cleansed the temple in Jerusalem is also be the world-wide leader of a "church" with multi-billion dollar financial assets and opaque accounting practices. (In fact it was the only recorded instance of Christ being so outraged that his actions approached violence.)

Seems to be polar opposites to me.

Considering that Jesus - the carpenter - was quite possible a capitalist, I don't see it as polar at all. There was a reason he cleared the temple and it had nothing to do with the supposed evils of capitalism.

[dude]

It follows, therefore, that if someone, active Church member or not, thinks "the Church" is not doing enough humanitarian aid, that individual should pony up and contribute to the Church's humanitarian-aid fund, thus making more money available for use in humanitarian endeavors.

You made some good points Scott Lloyd, but there's a hitch in what you're suggesting above. I've already ponied-up 10%, which is not chump change. I pay a generous fast offering, last year $1,000. Now I'm told it's my fault the church can't give more in humanitarian aid. I like your idea above, if my bishop will let me shift half my tithing to fast offering and call it even. You know as well as I that that won't fly. Gotta keep the 10% separate from all other giving. Like most people, I give to other charities, but as a full-tithe paying temple-recommend holding LDS I'm probably giving less to the poor than my Christian neighbor is because I can't control where my giving is going exactly. I"m not the first person who wonders sometimes why I can't count all my charitable giving towards my tithe. No other Christian churches separates it all out. But then again, that's why they aren't in positions to buy billion dollar malls either.

BTW, I don't think anybody even commented on Maxrep's analogy of the husband who buys the harley with "his" money.

I think it hits pretty close to home on this issue.

[antishock8]

CFR on $5B.

You keep making that assertion and expect us to accept it. Lay down, Pilgrim!

TIME magazine did a profile on the Mormon church's finances and offered up that number for one of the fiscal years in the 90's. The magazine claims that it was aided by the Mormon church regarding financial information.

Please answer my question.

[RedSox]

Does the church tell us how much money they spend on humanitarian efforts?

I keep hearing rumblings about how little was sent to the Gulf Coast in the aftermath of Katrina. Has the church released any figures?

[chonguey]

Considering that Jesus - the carpenter - was quite possible a capitalist, I don't see it as polar at all. There was a reason he cleared the temple and it had nothing to do with the supposed evils of capitalism.

Jesus the.... Capitalist? Maybe in the GOPs 21st Century America but certainly not in AD 33 Palestine.

Please enlighten us to his capitalistic reasons... I'm dying to hear this one.

[urroner]

Jesus the.... Capitalist? Maybe in the GOPs 21st Century America but certainly not in AD 33 Palestine.

Please enlighten us to his capitalistic reasons... I'm dying to hear this one.

Is God against capitalism? Does He view it as an "evil?"

Chonguey, which economic system is God's system?

[antishock8]

Capitalist Jesus. Wow. WWCJD?

[RedSox]

Is God against capitalism? Does He view it as an "evil?"

Chonguey, which economic system is God's system?

Consecration.

[urroner]

Capitalist Jesus. Wow. WWCJD?

WWCJD - Wild Women Chugging Jack Daniels

[chonguey]

Is God against capitalism? Does He view it as an "evil?"

Chonguey, which economic system is God's system?

No idea. He hasn't gotten around to writing "God's OFFICIAL Economic Handbook" and unlike some, I don't pretend to speak for him.

And don't say "Tithing!" because giving away 10% of your wealth growth is not an "economic system."

But I was just pointing out the silliness of saying that Jesus, because he plied a trade as a carpenter, was a "capitalist."

Working for a living does not equal capitalism as an economic system and to insinuate that connection is lunacy.

Capitalism didn't even exist as an idea until hundreds of years after the death of Jesus.

Consecration.

So socialism then?

[RedSox]

Sure. I'm of the opinion that consecration resembles socialism more than it resembles capitalism, but consecration seems to envelope the postives of both.

[urroner]

Consecration is a voluntary system where socialism isn't.

Socialism is a form of government where capitalism is more of an economic system.

[chonguey]

Sure. I'm of the opinion that consecration resembles socialism more than it resembles capitalism, but consecration seems to envelope the postives of both.

So why would God espouse an economic model that has failed both in secular applications (Soviet Russia, Other communistic states) and also in a religious context (The United Order)? Seems like he could come up with something that worked more reliably.

Socialism is a form of government where capitalism is more of an economic system.

Actually socialism is a political ideology whereas communism is the governmental structure based on socialist principles.

[RedSox]

Simply because it hasn't worked doesn't mean it can't work. Besides, if we believe consecration is God's economic system, it was God's system long before modern communism or the United Order.

I agree, however, with what you seem to be implying: socialism isn't easy. I just don't think God intended it to be that way.

[selek]

Simply because it hasn't worked doesn't mean it can't work. Besides, if we believe consecration is God's economic system, it was God's system long before modern communism or the United Order.

I agree, however, with what you seem to be implying: socialism isn't easy. I just don't think God intended it to be that way.

There are two possible reasons for socialism to fail: outside pressure or a fundamental flaw in the system.

As the Pilgrims discovered in the original Plymouth colony, as the Soviets found out in Russia, the North Koreans, the Chinese, and the Vietnamese all discovered- there is a fundamental flaw in both socialism and communism- you cannot make them work without massive government coercion that starts out as a police state and ends up in a blood bath.

The common good is a laudable enough goal, but people will not do their best for "the common good" without some element of self-interest to drive their action. In socialism and communism (as western Europe is discovering today), the productive and adventurous are enslaved to the least productive- which stifles invention, creativity, and productivity. Why do your best if you will be rewarded exactly the same as the man next to you- regardless of your respective efforts?

Insanity has been defined as trying the same thing over and over again hoping for different results. In that case, I would suspect anyone who has high hopes for either socialism or communism is (at least) slightly insane.

[Knight who says Ne]

Jesus the.... Capitalist? Maybe in the GOPs 21st Century America but certainly not in AD 33 Palestine.

Please enlighten us to his capitalistic reasons... I'm dying to hear this one.

wacho? real enlightened response. You must have knocked them dead in debate club.

As a carpenter, Jesus would need to buy tools and raw material, perhaps even rent on the shop if it was separate from the home. He would have to charge for his product to purchase these items. He would also need to purchase food and housing and other needs for himself and Mary as well as pay taxes to Rome, which means he would need to make a profit in his business.

[Deborah]

Well, it could be the Church is preparing the area for the grand tour to be given to Christ on His return. I'm sure he'll demand the usual VIP tour including the Storehouses... Gotta make it look good!

And after all this is expected to be completed in 2011...and the Mayan calendar ends in 2012. (Twilight Zone music begins).

[GRW]

GRW

Sorry but bulb wattage is fixed, some are high some are low.

What the scripture makes clear to those bulbs with enough wattage to comprehend ...

Apologies, I have been spending my time with my family over the holiday and have not visited the board, and so did not have a chance until now to reply to this lovely bit of raw apologetic Christianity.

Kemara, your arrogance, unkindness and rudeness in defending a chruch that claims to be led by Jesus Christ speaks for itself. You are unworthy of any more of my time, since you cannot find even enought charity to be civil.

[Scott Lloyd]

How would you know? You're not allowed to see anything... really.

There are and have been enough people privy to what goes on behind the scenes that if something were amiss, surely some disgruntled whistle blower would have come forward by now.

But, to the consternation of the antagonists, nothing is ever amiss. So they are left with their hostile conjectures and what-ifs.

[Scott Lloyd]

You made some good points Scott Lloyd, but there's a hitch in what you're suggesting above. I've already ponied-up 10%, which is not chump change. I pay a generous fast offering, last year $1,000. Now I'm told it's my fault the church can't give more in humanitarian aid.

I'm not assigning blame for anything. I'm merely saying if you don't think "the Church" does enough humanitarian aid, you -- and others -- have the option to do something about it, other than gripe.

Incidentally, as I have explained above, fast offerings are distinguished from hamanitarian aid in that the former benefits Church members only, while the latter is administered without regard for religious affiliation. So if you want to do more for general humanitarian aid, you may want to consider channeling some of your annual $1,000 contribution to the humanitarian-aid fund

I like your idea above, if my bishop will let me shift half my tithing to fast offering and call it even. You know as well as I that that won't fly.

My idea? If you want to try to redefine the doctrines and procedures of the Church to suit your own whim, have at it, but don't attribute it to me.

Gotta keep the 10% separate from all other giving. Like most people, I give to other charities, but as a full-tithe paying temple-recommend holding LDS I'm probably giving less to the poor than my Christian neighbor is because I can't control where my giving is going exactly.

Well now, that's a choice you make yourself, isn't it? Tithe paying, in the context of the Church of Jesus Christ, is, among other things, an individual expression of support for, confidence in, and commitment to the ecclesiastical mission of the Church. It follows, then, that if someone does not feel such confidence or commitment, it doesn't make a lot of sense for him or her to pay tithing. Church members are welcome -- nay, encouraged -- to contribute to other worthy causes as well, but tithing is what it is, and you don't get to redefine it to suit your own notions.

I"m not the first person who wonders sometimes why I can't count all my charitable giving towards my tithe. No other Christian churches separates it all out.

Sorry, but this strikes me as naive. I dare say virtually every other "Christian church" devotes a certain percentage of its receipts to operating expenses and ecclesiastical functions; otherwise, it soon ceases to exist as an entity, Christian or otherwise. And if a "Christian church" does not inform its members/donors as to the proportion of their contributions that go to such purposes, I submit it is being less, not more forthcoming than The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

But then again, that's why they aren't in positions to buy billion dollar malls either.

[sarcasm mode on]My, what a scandal it is for a church to be in a position of financial strength and to manage its resources prudently![sarcasm mode off]

BTW, I don't think anybody even commented on Maxrep's analogy of the husband who buys the harley with "his" money.

I think it hits pretty close to home on this issue.

For my part, I consider Maxrep's analogy so fundamentally wrong-headed as to not merit the time and attention it takes to formulate a response.

[Wonka]

What if the LDS church didnâ??t take on this project? What if downtown SLC fell into decay and became a dangerous place to live, work, and shop? Would the critics then say, â??Hey, the Mormons have a lot of money! Why donâ??t they help clean this place up?!?â?