Church Investment In Downtown Slc

[Scott Lloyd]

It is disingenuous to separate the funds. The Church can spend the totality of its funds however it wants to.

It's disingenuous to insinuate the Church neglects to honor the purposes for which funds are donated when you have nothing -- zip -- in the way of substantiation that this is what's happening.

The fact that the vast majority of the Church's funds (95%+) go towards non-humanitarian causes is troubling--especially when it builds an upscale mall of all things.

Once again, all the funds that are donated expressly for humanitarian service go toward that end. If you deny that, you have the burden of proof.

If I am able to convince just one person on this board that it is not worth paying tithing to build upscale malls, and instead they donate the money entirely to fast offerings or to charity, then it makes it worth it. That's one reason among many.

Given that the president of the Church has expressly denied that tithing funds are going toward building a mall, such a person would be a fool to accept such a notion on your say-so alone.

[USU78]

Lots of speculation going on, in both directions. A few facts, just for fun:

The Mormon church built SOME of SLC and what it considered to be Deseret using tithing funds. Read up on Tithing Houses, Tithing Scrip, and Tithing Receipts.

Today, there are tax laws that I am sure the Mormon church adheres to as there is nothing more precious, financially speaking, than a tax exempt status. To risk that would be incredibly stupid.

Those two things are not mutually exclusive. Historically speaking, the church's investments have roots in tithing funds (and other donations of course). You can't separate them out and determine that X investment dollars originated from tithing and X dollars did not. Who could do that? And how?

The for-profit businesses that the Moromon church owns donate some of their profit back to the Mormon church. And those for-profit funds then become non-profit monies. Nothing illegal, immoral or unethical about that whatsoever.

Trying to split out what was originally tithing, as it was used before the current tax laws, is a futile effort. You may as well try to pull the water that originated in the Andes mountains from the sea. Sure, it's there, but it is part of the whole and you aren't going to be able to separate it out and pour yourself a refreshing drink of water and claim it came from the Andes. And you can't look at the sea and claim that is is not comprised of water from many places, including snow in the Andes mountains.

As for SLC being built by the Mormon church, and owning the two malls for "decades". Come on! Main Street was a thriving, bustling, business district comprised of individual ownership. The Mormon church didn't buy Crossroads Mall until 2003. The First Security Bank building was built by the Kearns family.

The Mormon church has recently bought downton SLC properties through its real estate arm Property Reserve Inc. What PRI owns and manages is far beyond 2 blocks of downtown SLC. It is only the 2 block project that is getting lots of press, because it is a huge and highly visible endeavor.

And when Hinckley says no tithing monies are being used, I believe him, in the context of todays finances and tax laws, most definately I believe him. What some people get hung up on is that the non-profit funds that are being used did originate in part from tithing, at some point in time. OK. Fair assessment. I'm not really sure what is gained by Hinckely stating something like "no tithing funds are being used, and I mean that no funds that have been kept separate since the current tax laws we adhere to have required us to keep them separate". Would it change anything at all, really?

C.F.R.

[Scott Lloyd]

Deborah:

I will tell you why anyone should care..

Religions that are tax deductable cost communities and governments lost revenue in the billions of dollars each year that need to be made up by higher taxes by every one else or have to do with less services. If a church has the resources to spend that kind of money on malls and expensive buildings then they should be willing to pay property taxes on its meeting houses, temples and other exempt properties. Further there should be no reason why members can deduct its dues (tithings) any more than those who pay membership fees to a golf or yacht club.

This statement reflects an enedmic myopia that ignores a number of considerations, one of which being that the Church, through its Welfare Plan, cares for many needy people who would otherwise end up on public assistance. Another consideration is that the Church, through its teachings on morality, self-reliance, wholesome living, etc., tends to foster qualities of good citizenship among its members which benefit society in untold intangible and unquantifiable ways.

Laws exempting churches from taxation have their foundation in wisdom and prudence.

[TAK]

Scott:

Depends on what you regard as "investments." Is the money I put in my credit union savings account an investment? It does draw a modicum of interest.

Yes that's an investment (albeit a very poor one.. ) by any standard I know.

Do you suppose that's what the Church does with several 100 million dollars that may not be needed for 8-10 months? Put it in a Credit Union?? .. Or maybe???, they can loan it on a short term basis to a Church run entity they know and trust that may give them a more rewarding return?

[TAK]

Another consideration is that the Church, through its teachings on morality, self-reliance, wholesome living, etc., tends to foster qualities of good citizenship among its members which benefit society in untold intangible and unquantifiable ways.

Evidence? Proof? Studies? Please cite..

[Scott Lloyd]

Scott:

Yes that's an investment (albeit a very poor one.. ) by any standard I know.

Do you suppose that's what the Church does with several 100 million dollars that may not be needed for 8-10 months? Put it in a Credit Union?? .. Or maybe???, they can loan it on a short term basis to a Church run entity they know and trust that may give them a more rewarding return?

Ah, the never-ending imputation of wrong-doing, wholly unsubstantiated.

And the hits just keep on coming!

[Scott Lloyd]

Evidence? Proof? Studies? Please cite..

I'm merely stating what is self-evident. Why wouldn't imbuing someone with a sense of morality and ethics benefit society in the long run?

Take chastity, for example. It has been said that illegitimacy is society's most urgent social problem because it is the engine that drives all other social probems: poverty, crime, abuse, lack of achievement in school, etc. Considering that, think what good is accomplished by teaching people the need to remain faithful to spouses, to keep the family solid, and to limit sexual relations to marriage.

Another example is the Word of Wisdom. Teaching people to abstain from alcohol and tobacco obviously saves society from the social costs attendant to alcoholism and diseases related to smoking.

By the way, what you seem to be calling for is a system of double taxation. Members of the Church (or any church, for that matter) are citizens of the communities where they reside. What you would have them do is pay taxes twice, once as citizens and then again by having the government take a portion of the money they give to support their church.

How fair is that?

I find the very notion rather obnoxious, frankly.

[saemo]

C.F.R.

W.I.T.

(What is that?)

T.Y.

[Scott Lloyd]

W.I.T.

(What is that?)

T.Y.

©all (F)or ®eferences

[USU78]

Another consideration is that the Church, through its teachings on morality, self-reliance, wholesome living, etc., tends to foster qualities of good citizenship among its members which benefit society in untold intangible and unquantifiable ways.

Evidence? Proof? Studies? Please cite..

There's lots of that kind of language in the Congressional Record attendent to the adoption of the IRC provisions on exemptions for donations to charity . . . as well as the briefs of the litigants in the legal attacks by Atheists against the exemptions for donations to religious charities. Look it up.

USU "Doesn't do tax research" 78

[saemo]

[Scott Lloyd]

Ohhh. OK. Thanks and how fun! Coming right up....

No need to hustle on my account. USU made the call.

[TAK]

SCOTT

I'm merely stating what is self-evident. Why wouldn't imbuing someone with a sense of morality and ethics benefit society in the long run?

Are you suggesting that one can only be moral or ethical with religion?

SCOTT

By the way, what you seem to be calling for is a system of double taxation. Members of the Church (or any church, for that matter) are citizens of the communities where they reside. What you would have them do is pay taxes twice, once as citizens and then again by having the government take a portion of the money they give to support their church.

Do you know anything about finance or US economics ?

Everything today is double (or more ) taxed.. You work, you pay your taxes, you buy a shirt or a restaurant meal, you pay a tax again.. Sorry.

So why is giving money to a church any different than giving money to a country club?

BTW.. there is nothing illegal about the Church investing "tithing" dollars in investment products.

[Scott Lloyd]

SCOTT

Are you suggesting that one can only be moral or ethical with religion?

I'm saying that religion promotes morality and ethics. Do you deny this?

SCOTT

Do you know anything about finance or US economics ?

Everything today is double (or more ) taxed.. You work, you pay your taxes, you buy a shirt or a restaurant meal, you pay a tax again.. Sorry.

Income tax and sales tax are two different taxes. I'm not paying income tax twice on the same income, as I would be if my church were taxed.

So why is giving money to a church any different than giving money to a country club?

Because a church is fundamentally different in character and purpose than a country club.

BTW.. there is nothing illegal about the Church investing "tithing" dollars in investment products.

I said you were imputing wrongdoing, not illegality. If you don't think there's anything shady about it, why do you bother bringing it up?

[TAK]

Evidence? Proof? Studies? Please cite..

There's lots of that kind of language in the Congressional Record attendent to the adoption of the IRC provisions on exemptions for donations to charity . . . as well as the briefs of the litigants in the legal attacks by Atheists against the exemptions for donations to religious charities. Look it up.

USU "Doesn't do tax research" 78

I have no problems w/ donations to charities .. charities are great!

The Mormon Church is not a charity. Religions in general are not charities.. they may give a small percentage of money to the poor .. but by and large they keep most of the money for their own benefit..

[USU78]

I have no problems w/ donations to charities .. charities are great! The Mormon Church is not a charity. Religions in general are not charities.. they may give a small percentage of money to the poor .. but by and large they keep most of the money for their own benefit..

Around and around and around she goes, ladies and gentlemen!

The Mormon Church is not a charity. Why? Because TAK sez it's not a charity. Why? Because it isn't a charity. Why? Because TAK sez it keeps the money for itself, and doesn't give to charity.

Yet if it's a charity, by definition it keeping the money "for itself" is giving it to charity.

What's a charity, precious?

USU "Keep nassssty chipsssses" 78

[TAK]

I'm saying that religion promotes morality and ethics. Do you deny this?

Your twisting.. religion promotes morality and ethics but so do parents and teachers and the law.. religion does not have a lock on this... Besides the point is not to do away with religion just special rights .. Are you suggesting the church would fail if it had to pay taxes on its tithing? Hardley.

Income tax and sales tax are two different taxes. I'm not paying income tax twice on the same income, as I would be if my church were taxed.

The money you give to a church for your membership is their money how are YOU being taxed a second time?

Because a church is fundamentally different in character and purpose than a country club.

Not really.. both provide a service designed to make you feel good.

I said you were imputing wrongdoing, not illegality. If you don't think there's anything shady about it, why do you bother bringing it up?

please explain how I can be "imputing wrongdoing" that is not illegal? Are you suggesting that IF the church were investing tithing money it would be wrong but maybe not illegal ? Wrong by whose standard?

[SleepingWillow]

I'm saying that religion promotes morality and ethics. Do you deny this?

I deny this. I believe religion promotes wishful thinking above facts and the seeking of truth--a fundamentally dishonest approach to morality and ethics. You don't need to swallow the whole cow to drink the milk.

Income tax and sales tax are two different taxes. I'm not paying income tax twice on the same income, as I would be if my church were taxed.

No, because you're already avoiding paying taxes on your tithing. Deductions on your taxes ensure that neither you or the Church are paying even a single tax. What they should do is remove the tax deduction for donating to the Church. To me that is government sponsorship of religion. In essence the government is giving money to the Mormon church and taking it away from its own essential services.

Because a church is fundamentally different in character and purpose than a country club.

Would you be so effusive towards religion if Witchcraft (Wicca) or Rastafarianism were extremely popular? I suspect you only support the government's support of religion as long as it supports the religions you support. Follow?

[saemo]

C.F.R.

"Banking and Finance", Utah History Encylopedia

http://www.media.utah.edu/UHE/b/BANKING.html

"The most important early banking activity of the church, however, was that connected with the tithing houses located in every LDS settlement. Until 1869, the tithing houses were the only general stores in most Utah communities. Each kept an elaborate bookkeeping system, with debits and credits for each customer; the accounts were "settled," but not necessarily balanced, at the end of each year. Thus, individuals and village shops and industries could "save" by accumulating credits and "borrow" by withdrawing commodities in excess of their accumulated credits. The tithing offices, particularly the General Tithing Office in Salt Lake City, issued a kind of currency called "tithing scrip," which facilitated accurate bookkeeping and generally circulated throughout the territory. Tithing resources were used in supporting laborers engaged in making roads, constructing dams, building schoolhouses, and erecting telegraph lines.

What the tithing houses did on a village basis, the central treasury of the church, called the Office of the Trustee-in-Trust, did on a territorial basis. With tithing receipts, other donations, borrowed capital, and profits from church enterprises as its revenue, that office financed public works of interest to the entire church. Woolen factories, major canal systems, railroads, the importing of houses, and, of course, various kinds of buildings for worship were among the enterprises and institutions financed by this office. By lending capital and credit, and by borrowing and relending surplus funds to other members of the community, the office of the trustee-in-trust was thus a kind of church-wide investment bank."

"Deseret Book About Us"

http://deseretbook.com/about

"Deseret Book is a wholly owned subsidiary of Deseret Management Corporation, the holding company for business firms owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Deseret Book is a profit-making Utah corporation."

"Profit

We are committed to following sound business practices to provide capital sufficient for future growth while providing a reasonable return to our owner."

"Proceedsing of City Council of Salt Lake City, Utah, Tuesday October 14,2003, pg 03-140"

http://www.ci.slc.ut.us/CED/rda/Second/200...D/10-14jntr.pdf

"...He said one year later, in 2003, the L.D.S Church purchased Crossroads Mall..."

By First Security Bank building, I mean the building on 79 S Main. That is the "ugly" structure that some want to save, and some want to see go. I had my builders and family twixed and mixed. The building was built by "Hooper, Eldredge and Company", but later (1932) acquired by First Security Bank, a bank that was started by Marriner S. Eccles. (So Eccles, not Kearns, both are very prominent Utah families.)

Info from "Banking and Finance", Utah History Encylopedia

http://www.media.utah.edu/UHE/b/BANKING.html

regarding the Deseret National Bank....invidually owned

"The final national bank, and the first "Mormon bank" to be founded in Utah, was the Deseret National Bank. This bank was an outgrowth of a banking partnership established in 1868 under the name of Hooper, Eldredge and Company. William Hooper was a prominent Salt Lake City merchant and Utah's territorial delegate to Congress; Horace S. Eldredge was also a prominent merchant and high official of the LDS Church. Their mercantile firm having been absorbed in 1868 into the church-promoted wholesale and retail house, Zion's Co-operative Mercantile Institution (ZCMI), Hooper and Eldredge entered the field of banking with their bookkeeper, Lewis S. Hills. Their bank was originally called "Zion's Co-operative Banking Institution," and the sign bore a representation of the "All-Seeing Eye of Jehovah," signifying approval by the Mormon Church of their venture and enjoining all faithful Saints to patronize their establishment.

Starting with a paid-up capital of $40,000, the firm increased its capital in 1871 to $100,000 and incorporated as the Bank of Deseret, with Brigham Young as president. This was the first "state" bank in Utah. The bank further expanded and in 1872, with $200,000 in capital, obtained a charter as the Deseret National Bank. For many years this was the only Mormon commercial bank in Utah, and it cooperated in meeting the economic needs and social goals of the LDS Church. In association with other Mormon officials, Hooper and Eldredge also founded the First National Bank of Ogden in 1881 and the First National Bank of Provo in 1883.

For nine years after the failure of the Salt Lake City National Bank of Utah in 1876, the Deseret National Bank was the only national bank in Salt Lake City. It continued as the leading national bank in Utah until well into the twentieth century. The Deseret National Bank remained a separate institution until 5 April 5 1932 when, as the result of the exigencies of the Great Depression, it was consolidated with the Security National Bank of Salt Lake City, a bank controlled by Marriner Eccles and the First Security Corporation. Total resources of the firm rose from about $600,000 in 1872 to more than $1,000,000 in 1880. During the same period deposits rose from $250,000 to $570,000."

The LDS Church purchased the building. I can't find a date as the church normally acquires property quietly. However, this article from Deseret News http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,585038309,00.html on January 17, 2004 states "...sign atop the old Deseret Building (now owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) was lighted." Also interesting to note in this article is the downtown redevelopment project was projected to be a $500 million dollar project."LDS Church Presiding Bishop H. David Burton said at the ceremony that the bank building will be preserved as part of the church's $500 million downtown redevelopment project."

Two examples of LDS real estate purchases within the last 2 years:

2004, Triad Center, Salt Lake City:

http://www.lds.org/newsroom/showrelease/0,...1-19638,00.html

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595068823,00.html

2004, Old Navy building (100 S Main)

http://www.poll.ro/old-navy/

LDS company closes on Old Navy building

Property Reserve Inc., the real estate investment arm of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, has closed on the purchase of the former Old Navy building at 100 South and Main Street in Salt Lake City.

Dale Bills, LDS Church spokesman, confirmed the completion of the purchase. Terms were not disclosed, and Bills said on Friday that there is no immediate tenant for the building.

"The intent is to use the building to provide space for tenants displaced by downtown mall redevelopment," said Bills, who was unable to share any new information regarding the development project.

Bills confirmed that the church also is continuing to investigate the feasibility of purchasing the Triad Center property on Block 84 in Salt Lake City.

The LDS Church, through its various business entities, already owns significant portions of the block. Czalifornia-based M&S Triad LP and the state of Utah own the rest.

Last Tuesday, the church received approval from the Salt Lake City Council, acting as the city's redevelopment agency, to assume the RDA's non-financial sublease on the historic Devereaux House, which rests on the southern portion of Block 84.

In order to complete the deal, the church must gain similar consent from the state, which owns the Devereaux House.

Copyright C 2004 Deseret News Publishing Co.Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning Company. All rights Reserved.

Other PRI properties:

1027 acres, Manatee Florida http://www.manateepao.com/downloads/Report...y%20Acreage.pdf

Jacksonville, Florida, http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stor...s_4087599.shtml, July 31, 2006

"Renovations at 54 Magnolia apartments at Deerwood Park for exterior repairs, 9800 Touchton Road near Southside Boulevard and Gate Parkway, $917,400; contractor is Project Development Group, Pittsburgh; agent is Chris Christensen, asset manager; owner is Property Reserve Inc., Salt Lake City; engineer is Construction Solutions."

Ensign Plaza South, Ogden Utah: http://www.standard.net/xx.php/business/80...printable=story, May 9,2006

Carmel Valley California, 601 acres http://www.co.monterey.ca.us/lafco/cvinc_f...darychanges.pdf, June 9, 2006

32-unit condo, Anaheim, California, http://www.anaheim.net/docs_agend/questys_...9392/Agenda.htm, May 9, 2006

276-unit luxury apartment complex, Jacksonvill, Florida:http://nreionline.com/mag/real_estate_jpi_enjoys_rocky/

"Tuckerman Group sells complex in gator country The Tuckerman Group of Purchase, N.Y., has sold 54 Magnolia, a 276-unit luxury apartment complex in Jacksonville, Fla., to Salt Lake City-based Property Reserve Inc. for $20 million. "

There is more, but I'm done searching for the day.

[selek]

I deny this. I believe religion promotes wishful thinking above facts and the seeking of truth--a fundamentally dishonest approach to morality and ethics. You don't need to swallow the whole cow to drink the milk.

You are of course, entitled to your opinion so long as you allow us ours.

No, because you're already avoiding paying taxes on your tithing. Deductions on your taxes ensure that neither you or the Church are paying even a single tax. What they should do is remove the tax deduction for donating to the Church. To me that is government sponsorship of religion. In essence the government is giving money to the Mormon church and taking it away from its own essential services.

Call For References- please demonstrate that neither the Church nor the average Mormon pays anykind of taxes on tithing.

Also, please demonstrate to me this strange and wonderful concept called "government money" and tell me from whence it flows.

Would you be so effusive towards religion if Witchcraft (Wicca) or Rastafarianism were extremely popular? I suspect you only support the government's support of religion as long as it supports the religions you support. Follow?

Isn't this precisely what you're doing? Because you have an axe to grind with the LDS Church?

Isn't it hypocrisy to accuse (and by implication, condemn us) for what you yourself are engaging in?

[SleepingWillow]

You are of course, entitled to your opinion so long as you allow us ours.

Call For References- please demonstrate that neither the Church nor the average Mormon pays anykind of taxes on tithing.

Tithing is tax-deductible. Look it up yourself.

Also, please demonstrate to me this strange and wonderful concept called "government money" and tell me from whence it flows.

It comes from the people. Some people get deductions because they spend money on "preferred" activities. Currently religion is one of them.

Isn't this precisely what you're doing? Because you have an axe to grind with the LDS Church?

Isn't it hypocrisy to accuse (and by implication, condemn us) for what you yourself are engaging in?

No. I am both for and against all religions equally. I was pointing out I do not believe this to be the case with you or others in this thread.

[selek]

Tithing is tax-deductible. Look it up yourself.

No. I am both for and against all religions equally. I was pointing out I do not believe this to be the case with you or others in this thread.

I know that tithing is tax-deductable. If itemized. Paying taxes on tithing can be avoided I was challenging you to prove it is avoided. I don't itemize- therefore I am paying taxes on my tithing.

Also, my comment about being entitled to your opinion referred to your claim about religion promoting fantasies, not about tax law. You have the right to worship (or not) how and where you will- kindly do us the same courtesy.

You claim to be opposed to all religions equally, but you (at least here) have reserved your bitterness and vitriol for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You seem to be somewhat selective in that regard. I don't recall having heard you attack any other religion, except in the most general of terms- and especially not the religions of secular humanism and atheism- which IIRC have both been deemed religions by the US government.

[USU78]

There is more, but I'm done searching for the day.

Thanks for your excellent work! I worked downtown SLC for 20+ years (until about 3-1/2 years ago) and was informed that the Church owned the dirt underneath Crossroads mall for a long time. I'm quite surprised that the dirt as well as the building were acquired so recently.

The others are quite in accord with my memory. Piece by piece over a very long period of time the Church has been picking up properties surrounding Temple Square and the administrative campus: helps keep the S.O.B. businesses away. One property I've always liked was the old elementary school that they converted to the old Mission Home and then tore down in order to build something far more useful.

Keep on keepin' on.

R

[MorningStar]

Check a good dictionary. Whinge is a mainly British term that means "to whine" or "to complain."

Your cultural awareness is about as keen and compelling as your carping and fault-finding on this thread.

Right you are! They used that term on Nanny 911 this week.

[MorningStar]

I've made what I think are salient points about the Church's misappropriation of the Lord's money, while you and others have been resorting to crass personal insults.

But you don't believe it's the Lord's money, right?