Latter-day Saints View of Islam.

[Daniel Peterson]

I had a very pleasant visit with Sheikh al-Hilaly while I was in Sydney. He kindly gave me copies of three of his books, written in Arabic, which I look forward to reading. (They're actually on topics that interest me, which isn't always the case with such gifts.)

He and his deputy were very upset by the pope's alleged remarks, which had just been made public. They had not read the Regensburg speech itself, but were relying on an Arab newspaper's account of a western journalist's account of it -- which I think was a bad mistake. I had not yet read it myself, but eventually was able to get it off of the Vatican website. Needless to say, the riots and church-burnings and nun-killings find no justification in what Benedict XVI actually said. For the last week of my trip, in speeches at universities, with politicians, and during radio interviews, I emerged as a defender of the Pope.

But Sheikh al-Hilaly and his lieutenant Kaysar Trad and the others at the mosque were very hospitable, and they served Middle Eastern food. No Krispy Kremes, alas, but it was still quite good.

I'm encouraged, Ray, by your post above. Muslim immigrants urgently need to assimilate (without losing their faith or surrendering their cultural distinctives) into Australian society. This was a concern among all of the politicians with whom I met.

[Ray Agostini]

But Sheikh al-Hilaly and his lieutenant Kaysar Trad and the others at the mosque were very hospitable, and they served Middle Eastern food.  No Krispy Kremes, alas, but it was still quite good.

I'm encouraged, Ray, by your post above.  Muslim immigrants urgently need to assimilate (without losing their faith or surrendering their cultural distinctives) into Australian society.  This was a concern among all of the politicians with whom I met.

I thought you may have met the Sheikh, Dan, although we didn't discuss that. I wish I had known you'd met Kaysar Trad. Trad is one of the Muslim leaders who has tried very hard to bridge the gaps, as you probably know, and he has been trounced by some sections of the media for "double-speak". He's a very articulate spokesperson, and I believe he means well, and does well. I've listened to most of Trad's talks on radio and his earnestness persuaded me that he's genuine, and he's what you'd call a "moderate" with strong influence.

The integration in Wollongong has been a relative success, and I say relative because there's still a lot of prejudice against Muslims. However, as you may also know, in Sydney's West, where I worked, some radical Muslims have given them a bad name and unfortunately people tend to generalise by the actions of the minority. The Prime Minister has taken a hard line on the radicals, and in the process also offended some of the more moderate Muslims, but I feel confident that with people like Kaysar Trad and the mufti working with the government this will be overcome. Australia has had a 50 year history of taking in migrants from all over the world, and the Italians and Greeks "copped" it just like the Muslims are now. I feel that in time this will dissipate, just as the prejudices against the Italians and Greeks did. The Italian migrants who first came to Wollongong inclined to settle in one main area, Warrawong, which is about ten minutes drive from my place, and in the '70s everyone complained about them turning Warrawong in a "migrant ghetto". This all faded by the early '80s, and now Aussies have nothing but praise for the Italians and Greeks who eventually integrated.

The "Muslim challenge" has been greater, and especially in Sydney's West, and has gone on for much longer, but I'm heartened to see what Sheikh al-Hilaly has been doing for the past couple of years, and he has also been outspoken against Muslim radicals. Public perception of him began on a very negative note, but I strongly suspect, though I could be wrong, that Kaysar Trad has had a significant influence upon his changing views. Trad speaks with an Australian accent, but I don't know if he was born here, but it is with people like himself and the Sheikh that the hope of future harmony rests. Demonising Muslims is not going to help, but Australians need to see, and hear, Australian Muslims like Trad speaking up for reconciliation and the breaking down of prejudice. I have worked with many Muslims, in fact I gave one of my Muslims co-workers a Book of Mormon, and he said he would read it. He offered me a copy of the Quran, but I said I'd already read it. He looked at me with a smile and said, "ah, a brother believer!"

[docrick]

Latter day Saints view of Islam. Well I have to admit I don't know much about it. I've never read the Kuran nor have I ever really known anyone who is muslim.

This latter day saint has a very poor view of Islam. Not necessarily because the religion is bad but because of what I see and what I don't see.

What I see:

1. Jihadists killing and threatening to kill all non Muslims

2. Muslims killing Muslims (Sunni vs Shiite)

3. Sabre rattling to "wipe Israel off the Map"

4. Global terrorism

What I don't see:

1. Widespread very vocal critisism from Muslims of the Terrorists

2. Muslim leaders "excommunicating" jihadists

3. Muslim leaders denouncing anti semetic rhetoric

Therefore I must conclude that Islam is NOT a religion of peace. I'm sure there are good people who are Muslim, there are good people everywhere.

But until I see the leaders of the Muslim world forcefully and powerfully condemning Jihad I will not respect the religion as peaceful.

[USU78]

Muslim immigrants urgently need to assimilate (without losing their faith or surrendering their cultural distinctives) into Australian society. This was a concern among all of the politicians with whom I met.

No question that a peaceful and not coerced cultural and economic assimilation is an achievable as well as devoutly to be wished-for goal.

One wonders how to accomplish the same when Riyadh controls so much of the religious education materials used by Muslims in the West (including, I'm assuming, Australia), which is far different from and more problematic than, say, the materials produced in Turkey, which the West German government banned years ago with tragic results.

I love the Australian-Rules-Football-Loving Mullah in the pix, as well as the Muslim comics in the US and Britain. More of the same can only help the situation. Nobody, quite including LDS, wants Muslims being targeted for violence (like the schmucks who recently fired on a Mosque) or any more instances like the rejoicing in New Jersey at the sights across the river.

[alter idem]

Docrick said: This latter day saint has a very poor view of Islam. Not necessarily because the religion is bad but because of what I see and what I don't see.

Alter Idem: My former brother in law is Muslim and he and his family are wonderful people. The marriage did not survive the religious divide, however, our family is still on very good terms with him and his new wife (Muslim) and children. When my family went to visit his in Pakistan, his extended family was nothing but generous, warm and accomodating. Even though it was during Ramadan, his mother fixed food for my family during the daylight hours. Even though they were Christians, they were treated as honored guests by his family and their friends.

It seems that the Islamic jihadists are ruining the reputation of all Muslims--those who don't know any personally, only judge them by the terrorists who get all the press. I hope LDS members don't do this. We of all people should know how unfair it would be if we were judged by what FLDS members or other break-off groups do.

In defense of the Muslims who don't speak up--If they do, they will become a target of the same hatred and violence which is now directed at us. I'd say they are just as scared as we are of these radical extremists..and they should be.

[docrick]

Docrick said: This latter day saint has a very poor view of Islam. Not necessarily because the religion is bad but because of what I see and what I don't see.

Alter Idem: My former brother in law is Muslim and he and his family are wonderful people. The marriage did not survive the religious divide, however, our family is still on very good terms with him and his new wife (Muslim) and children. When my family went to visit his in Pakistan, his extended family was nothing but generous, warm and accomodating. Even though it was during Ramadan, his mother fixed food for my family during the daylight hours. Even though they were Christians, they were treated as honored guests by his family and their friends.

It seems that the Islamic jihadists are ruining the reputation of all Muslims--those who don't know any personally, only judge them by the terrorists who get all the press. I hope LDS members don't do this. We of all people should know how unfair it would be if we were judged by what FLDS members or other break-off groups do.

In defense of the Muslims who don't speak up--If they do, they will become a target of the same hatred and violence which is now directed at us. I'd say they are just as scared as we are of these radical extremists..and they should be.

I expect the leaders of Islam to speak up publicly and forcefully against violence the same way the LDS Church leaders denounce publicly LDS splinter groups and their practice of polygamy.

If an LDS Church member is a murderer he/she will be excommunicated from the Church. I want to see "excommunication" style retribution for these jihadists and any and all who support jihad.

As I said I'm positive there are great muslim people; we just don't see them denouncing the radicals.

[Avatar4321]

But Sheikh al-Hilaly and his lieutenant Kaysar Trad and the others at the mosque were very hospitable, and they served Middle Eastern food. No Krispy Kremes, alas, but it was still quite good.

How can you sacrifice so much?

[Zeitgeist]

For Dr. Peterson,

I am not sure you can respond to this or not. Your area of study may differ. Even so I would like your honest assessment and opinion. Specifically, I would like to know your opinion of http://www.jihadwatch.org/ and Robert Spencer. I am interested in particular to your thoughts on his books or writings. He comes up a lot in many circles of friends/associates. He seems to have the ear of many in D.C. In what way might you differ with his opinions?

Thanks I sincerely appreciate your thoughts on this topic.

Zeitgeist

[Ray Agostini]

I expect the leaders of Islam to speak up publicly and forcefully against violence the same way the LDS Church leaders denounce publicly LDS splinter groups and their practice of polygamy.

If an LDS Church member is a murderer he/she will be excommunicated from the Church.  I want to see "excommunication" style retribution for these jihadists and any and all who support jihad. 

As I said I'm positive there are great muslim people; we just don't see them denouncing the radicals.

I'm posting this article to give you an insight into the mind of one Australian Muslim, who did speak out:

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3683

This is an extract:

You are frightened. So am I. So are people of Muslim background who manage Australia's largest financial institutions, who are partners of major commercial law firms, who are deans of faculties in major universities and who study at university.

We are frightened because if this happened in Sydney, we could be among the dead and wounded. We are frightened for the same reasons you are. What are we going to do about it? We will do exactly what you do. We will continue paying our taxes to fund law enforcement and intelligence services. We will be vigilant and report anything and anyone we find suspicious.

Some say we need to do more. So we will condemn and condemn and condemn terrorists again and again. Some say our mosques need to be closed down and we need to go back to where we came from. No problem. I will go back to East Ryde. My Muslim friends mentioned earlier will leave Concord and go back to Marrickville.

Some people will say anything to show hatred towards the world's 1.2 billion Muslims. Their hate is exactly what the terrorists want. They want you to victimise and blame me. Why? Because terrorists hope I will fall into their arms.

But I am not going to let that happen. And neither will the overwhelming majority of my fellow Muslim Australians. Because Sydney is my home town. I will do everything in my power to stop the terrorists.

Terrorism is about hate. The opposite of hate is love. As St Paul said in his first letter to the Corinthians, "Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres''.

Those who truly love Australia will love all Australians.

Maybe they are speaking out. I wonder how many Australians realise that the church condemns FLDS? I would think not too many. Unless they followed news reports more closely.

[Cold Steel]

Needless to say, the riots and church-burnings and nun-killings find no justification in what Benedict XVI actually said.

No kidding. The question becomes, Why is it that Muslims seem to have a problem with even the hint of criticism? Suppose the pope had intentionally criticized them? The Catholic church didn't have violent tantrums over the publication of The DaVinci Code, for heaven's sake. Until Muslims can take some criticism (justified or not) without screaming, rioting and setting things on fire, there's going to be a huge disconnect between them and the rest of the world.

When I was a mere sprat of a child, the moral basis of the tantrums between me and my siblings mattered not a whit! Despite the horrific injustices I received at the hands of my brother and sister (none of which was justified), I was strictly forbidden to set the house on fire or kill the cat.

Before being accepted by the West, Muslims are going to have to develop a thicker skins and learn, rather, how to do things like write letters to editors instead of cutting their tongues out or burning them in effigy!

[Daniel Peterson]

I'll be the first to admit that the Islamic world is going through a very bad period, and I would be happy if Muslim denunciations of terrorism were louder and more decisive. Moreover, Islam has not yet begun to adjust to the concept of genuine religious pluralism.

That said, though, one should be very, very careful about taking the very noisy and often hateful statements of today's radicals as representing all Muslims, let alone as representing the classical Islam of al-Ghazali, Rabi

[alter idem]

Ray, thanks for posting that. This is the point I was trying to make. We seem to talk about Muslims in general as the problem without realizing that the vast majority are just like us. They only want to raise their children and live a peaceful happy life. They are as afraid of the Islamic jihadists as we are. If they speak up, they too will be targeted. I don't consider them any more cowardly than the rest of us who remain silent because we don't want to experience what the Pope and Salmon Rushdie have.

Our LDS leaders condemn bad behavior, but I don't hear them condemning LDS break off groups by name--I think they are careful to condemn in general terms; they are always aware of the danger of becoming a target to LDS nutcases. The prophet has bodyguards and threats on his life--I'm sure he doesn't want to make any more enemies. It makes it difficult to fulfill his responsibilities if he's fearing for his safety. I don't blame the Muslim clerics for wanting to be cautious in their condemnations as well. No use making yourself a target unless you don't mind becoming a martyr.

[KevinG]

I'll be the first to admit that the Islamic world is going through a very bad period, and I would be happy if Muslim denunciations of terrorism were louder and more decisive. Moreover, Islam has not yet begun to adjust to the concept of genuine religious pluralism.

That said, though, one should be very, very careful about taking the very noisy and often hateful statements of today's radicals as representing all Muslims, let alone as representing the classical Islam of al-Ghazali, Rabi

[Calm]

Their hate is exactly what the terrorists want. They want you to victimise and blame me.

It is important to remember that hate and fear are the favourite tools of the terrorists and if you want to fight them, then eliminating those goes a long way toward that goal.

As to the good ones speaking up more....well, controversy sells and unfortunately nastiness can always find someone who wants to spread it while the good and gentle voices tend to be limited to their immediate surroundings, not considered worthy of a 60 sec soundbite. I don't think we should assume that just because we can't hear them, doesn't mean someone isn't trying to be heard but is not willing to take advantage of another in the process.

The goodhearted people are also more likely to be out there actually doing something rather than just looking for opportunities to talk.

[Daniel Peterson]

Still hoping that Mr. Noel00 will see (and perhaps acknowledge) my response to him, above.

[awyatt]

Our LDS leaders condemn bad behavior, but I don't hear them condemning LDS break off groups by name--I think they are careful to condemn in general terms; they are always aware of the danger of becoming a target to LDS nutcases. The prophet has bodyguards and threats on his life--I'm sure he doesn't want to make any more enemies. It makes it difficult to fulfill his responsibilities if he's fearing for his safety. I don't blame the Muslim clerics for wanting to be cautious in their condemnations as well. No use making yourself a target unless you don't mind becoming a martyr.

I'm no expert on Islam, but wanted to add another thought here. I don't think that the failure to speak out publicly against the violence is entirely due to the lack of wanting to be a target of the violence itself. I think it may also have to do with the fatalism (is that the proper word?) that is inherent in Islam. They believe that anything and everything that happens is the will of Allah. They believe this to an extreme; if something happened, then Allah willed it. Period.

If they speak out against something that happened, they would be speaking out against something that Allah willed. That is blasphemous, in their belief, so they don't speak out.

Dan, am I misunderstanding this particular aspect of the behavior?

-Allen

[docrick]

I expect the leaders of Islam to speak up publicly and forcefully against violence the same way the LDS Church leaders denounce publicly LDS splinter groups and their practice of polygamy.

If an LDS Church member is a murderer he/she will be excommunicated from the Church.

[TrespassersW]

Dr. Peterson:

That said, though, one should be very, very careful about taking the very noisy and often hateful statements of today's radicals as representing all Muslims,

What, in your opinion, is the ratio of the noisy radicals to more temperate Muslims? I ask because, from the news coverage I see, these "very noisy and often hateful statements" (and, I might add, actions) seem to have very wide support among the general (Muslim) population. This leads people like myself to believe that these noisy radicals represent modern Islam moreso than their more peaceful brethren. That's my perspective, anyway. And it is admittedly filtered through the lense of the American media. I'd like more of a "man-on-the-ground" perspective on this. Are the peaceful types the silent majority here? Or are they really as scarce as they appear to be?

[Ray Agostini]

That was a good article but I still feel that Muslim Clerics need to stand up and forcefully in the media and in a public way condemn the violence.

This may be happening (I doubt it) because you see nothing of this sort in the news.

Can you imagine if the world's 1.2 billion muslims openly condemn the vocal minority of terrorists and jihadists and excommunicate them from muslim worship places. 

I think you do have a valid point about Islamic leaders speaking out more. But I'm only asking this in reference to your observation. How many Catholics have spoken out about the IRA's violence in Northern Ireland? Has any Pope said anything about it, I mean loud and clear? I lived in Ireland and the IRA tried to recruit me from a Catholic school retreat where we went to a seminary weekend to learn about God!

[Cold Steel]

I'll be the first to admit that the Islamic world is going through a very bad period.... That said, though, one should be very, very careful about taking the very noisy and often hateful statements of today's radicals as representing all Muslims....

Every religion, I suppose, has its "noisy" and "often hateful" factions; it's just that radical Islam does not seem to be composed of just small and vocal pockets. Entire nations are hanging in the balance. I see the more moderate elements represented on television and, when asked to denounce radical Islam, their spokesmen always seem to be a bit reluctant in harshly condemning them.

Not only do I see fear on the part of Westerners in angering radical Islam, I think the moderate factions fear them as well.

We have a mosque here in Washington, D.C., and I don't know how well I would be received if I were to show up there as just some Anglo Christian. Are you saying I should be able to go there for a visit with little concern?

[Daniel Peterson]

We have a mosque here in Washington, D.C., and I don't know how well I would be received if I were to show up there as just some Anglo Christian. Are you saying I should be able to go there for a visit with little concern?

Sure! I've been there. No problem.

As to the ratio of moderate to militant Muslims, I don't think anybody really knows. There are, certainly, far too many militant Muslims. But there is no reliable polling data.

Islam is going through a profoundly dysfunctional phase, a crisis. I'm very unhappy with what I see. I can only hope that Muslims will return to the principles that made classical Islam great.

Would I like to hear more denunciations of jihadi violence? Absolutely.

[Daniel Peterson]

I notice that Mr. Noel00 had the time to appear on another thread and denounce alleged Mormon "rudeness."

[Ray Agostini]

I notice that Mr. Noel00 had the time to appear on another thread and denounce alleged Mormon "rudeness."

I noticed - very ironic.

[Tarski]

Would I like to hear more denunciations of jihadi violence?  Absolutely.

Do you have a theory as to why there aren't more such denunciations (even outrage)?

[noel00]

Now who is being obsessive? I was just making an observation about Wils style. Perhaps it is a sign that he feels that he is losing the argument. That observation was made by someone else (a FAIR refugee) on another board where is was suggested that Vogel was wiping the floor with Wil.