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Latter-day Saints View of Islam.


Ray Agostini

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The University of Queensland also had some interesting talks by Peterson.

http://www.uq.edu.au/events/event_view.php?event_id=2532

I gained a lot of information on Islam listening to the programs. DCP does not sound as arrogant as one might think he is, yet he was speaking to a different audience (Not consisting of LDS and those wicked "exlds")

One point he made was he was reseaching Evangelical attitudes towwards Islam ashe found some bad/inadequate literature in a christian bookshop. What I would like to ask him how he found those who taught Islamic studies at Fuller. I imagine that instutution would have a higher standard.

Anyway the talks have prompted me to do some extended reading on the subject.

Issues I would like to find out about would be . Was there an oral tradition with the Koran? Why do Moslems hate the idea of using a highlighter/pen when studying the Koran? Why did in some societies where Islam controlled, were Jews and Christians not allowed to wear the colour green?

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I gained a lot of information on Islam listening to the programs. DCP does not sound as arrogant as one might think he is, yet he was speaking to a different audience (Not consisting of LDS and those wicked "exlds")

I was about to ask whether you heard the lecture at the university, or on a program. I only caught this by chance in my Google alert on Mormonism.

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I wish I could view Islam as charitably. Going only on the translation of Qur'anic texts, Islamic views of Christ and the fact that virtually every Islamic country in the world seems to be exploding in violence, I can see very little "light" in the faith. He mentioned Malaysia and Turkey as possible "harbingers" of the future Muslim way -- but Kurdish violence and fundamentalist incursions among Turkish villages and even urban communities makes we wonder. I hope he's right, but when the nations rise against Jerusalem per Zechariah's prophecies, I can't help but see Islam at the forefront. (Zechariah, for example, indicates the "nations" will be those in the immediate area and specifically mentions Egypt as one of them.)

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CS:

I wish it was as easy as exploding violence in Muslim countries.

For better or for worse there always have been a dynamic tension between Christians and Mulims, due to their very different faith traditions.

You toss in the control of valuable resources, and the geopolitical machinations that come with it. Not that I excuse the violence, I don't. But I can see why they are more than a little upset.

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The simple fact is that Islam has a history of spreading its news at the point of a sword. Those who are the true believers of violence today will stop at nothing less than everyone one the planet reciting the Koran.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the doctrine and teaching of Islam. I am really not qualified to comment on Islam through comparative theology.

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Actually Christianity has a much worse history of blood than does Islam. There are, however, some real problems in the Islamic world and a possibility of civil war within the religion as much as there is a possibility of war between Islam and the rest of the world.

There are some very kind and loving Islamic individuals. I have a several Islamic friends that I trust without question. I think before anyone forms opinions that they should talk directly to some Moslems. Their Sabbath is Friday and anyone that wants can contact the local masque and ask to speak to someone or some listen to a speaker. Tell them you or Christian or more specifically LDS. You will find them very accommodating. Tell them you would just like to know a little more about what they believe without the media involved.

I have talked to several Moslems in the Salt Lake area - we use to meet once a month to just talk about things. Of all religions, I find Islam one of the more accommodating of LDS thought. For example they understand our concept of a prophet, proxy ordinance work for the dead, the use of temples for covenants, the Word of Wisdom, secret combinations, priesthood, family and even polygamy.

I strongly suggest that one take the time to talk directly to someone of the Islamic faith before writing them all off as religious zealots and extremist. How would you like your religion understood based on the Spanish Inquisition, the brutal destruction of the library or Alexandra or the forced conversion of Northern Europe to Christianity that brought more death to Europe than the Black plague. Getting to know someone before you come to conclusions about their religion is a good thing.

The Traveler

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  • 3 weeks later...
DCP does not sound as arrogant as one might think he is, yet he was speaking to a different audience (Not consisting of LDS and those wicked "exlds")

I want to assure noel00 (with as nasty a snarl as I'm able to muster) that any failure, on my part, to be arrogant and vicious was solely due to jet lag. I'm cruel, nasty, and uncivil beyond noel00's worst nightmares, from the time I get out of bed in the morning (always on the wrong side) until, in the evening, surfeited with acts of spite and expressions of pointless malice, I fall into bed, simply oozing smug self-satisfaction.

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I want to assure noel00 (with as nasty a snarl as I'm able to muster) that any failure, on my part, to be arrogant and vicious was solely due to jet lag.  I'm cruel, nasty, and uncivil beyond noel00's worst nightmares, from the time I get out of bed in the morning (always on the wrong side) until, in the evening, surfeited with acts of spite and expressions of pointless malice, I fall into bed, simply oozing smug self-satisfaction.

All tongue-in-cheek of course. It was a pleasure to meet Dan and his wife and check for myself whether those horns were really there. I'm pleased to say they aren't, so I've given Dan a clean bill of mental health.

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Don't ever change, DP.

One of my biggest fears is that I won't.

It was great for my wife and me to meet Ray A and his daughter down in Wollongong. Good guy. Nice daughter. Beautiful place.

And, when we reached New Zealand, we got to spend some time both in Hamilton/Temple View and in Auckland with Pahoran. A very pleasant fellow -- and, especially for my wife, a huge relief to drive with.

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Don't ever change, DP.

One of my biggest fears is that I won't.

It was great for my wife and me to meet Ray A and his daughter down in Wollongong. Good guy. Nice daughter. Beautiful place.

And, when we reached New Zealand, we got to spend some time both in Hamilton/Temple View and in Auckland with Pahoran. A very pleasant fellow -- and, especially for my wife, a huge relief to drive with.

Dan, you forgot to mention my greatest achievement.

But I'm not modest, so I'll tell the forum what it was.

Hard as it might be for some to believe, I ate twice as much pizza as you did.

Regards,

Pahoran

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Hard as it might be for some to believe, I ate twice as much pizza as you did.

I was just in a funk. It was an aberration.

I didn't have any Krispy Kremes!

(So how could I concentrate on mere pizza?)

As far as I can tell, there are no Krispy Kremes in all of New Zealand. Why on earth New Zealand typically ranks first or second as a worldwide tourist destination is, on those grounds, absolutely beyond comprehension. There were Krispy Kremes in the airport at Sydney (in Australia) but, like a fool, I didn't buy any. For three weeks, I was forced to feed entirely on my own malevolence.

Oh yes. Mustn't forget. For noel00: GRRRR!

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I apologise for the remarks because when I read what I said I cringe I said that. No excuse except the Australian sun maybe. However the topic was Islam and I should have stuck to discussing that. I still think there is plenty of material out there which refutes the claims of the LDS church. However many here think otherwise and thats their right.

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  RayA ,your friend ,presents a reasonable and nice persona here, but there was some really "unchristlike" language he used on the other board. Will the real RayA please stand up?

Like Porter Rockwell I am no saint in my language. But at least I'm not a bitter, angry-exMormon. Which is worse, bad language, or spending all of your waking hours angrily attacking the faith you once belonged to? Aren't there any nice fishing spots off Queensland you can go to excise all this venom? Give it a break. Your constant whining and complaining and awful biases just absolutely bores. Every time I read your posts I remember why I refer to some as dumbass exmos.

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By the way DCP, that party you and your aussie mate loath was elected once more in Queensland and the party controls all State Governments. Australia is the best place in  the World to live.

Australia is a good place. There are several good places, including New Zealand.

I'm entirely aware of Peter Beattie's recent reelection as the Labour premier in Queensland.

I had very pleasant meetings with senior members of both major Australian (and both major Kiwi) parties while I was Down Under, on both the federal and state level. That includes such representatives of the Australian party that I supposedly "loathe" as Kevin Rudd (the shadow foreign minister), Roger Price (the chief opposition whip), Julia Gillard (the shadow health minister), Harry Jenkins, and Graham Edwards (whom I will be helping to host here in Utah next week).

Noel00, your claim that I "loathe" these people is as baseless an insult as is your perpetual claim that I'm arrogant and vicious. You attack me personally, and have been doing so for many months, and yet you have the nerve to accuse me of being arrogant and unkind. I have to hand it to you: It's a bravura performance, in a contemptible sort of way.

I have been watching your little cameo on MoreGoodFoundation regarding material on the net on LDS theology etc that seems to disturb you.

I've only watched it once. If you've "been watching" it repeatedly, you must have time on your hands -- and perhaps something worse.

People are entitled to express their view about the claims of the LDS church just as you are to push your barrow.

When have I so much as hinted at anything to the contrary?

Are you about to launch yet another baseless attack on me, alleging that I deny the right of others to express their opinions?

Apparently that's precisely what you're about to do. See below.

I have been watching Metcalfe/Brian's discussion about the KEP. Makes interesting reading when one participant picks up his bucket and spade and departs the scene under the guise of being too busy.

I haven't been watching it, and, so, cannot comment -- not even sneeringly -- on your insinuation.

The beauty of the net, Dan is I can both see your contribution and that of others elsewhere when you have them booted off when they demolish the TBM arguments.

The beauty of unfettered imagination, Noel00, restrained by neither evidence nor ethics, is that people can invent and circulate entirely false accusations. (If you wish to call that "beauty.")

I have never had anybody "booted off" from any message board for disagreement with "TBM" arguments, successful or otherwise. Your allegation is pure, malevolent fiction. I won't even ask that you be booted, notwithstanding your continually nasty and groundless claims about my character, personality, and behavior.

RayA ,your friend ,presents a reasonable and nice persona here, but there was some really "unchristlike" language he used on the other board. Will the real RayA please stand up?

Even if true, what has this got to do with any issue of any substance?

I have found Ray a very bright fellow, a good partner in a discussion, and, now, a very kind and hospitable host. I looked forward to meeting him, and was not disappointed when I did. I haven't followed his posts anywhere else except here and on the old ZLMB, and can say nothing about his alleged language or actions elsewhere. By contrast, I've been the object of your slurs and jabs for quite some time now, and I have absolutely no interest in ever meeting you.

Noel00, why don't you make an effort to refrain from gratuitous and irrelevant personal attacks on other posters here? You might attempt it, at first, for a couple of days. See how that goes. Then try to forego such attacks for a whole week. Perhaps, if that's successful, you can attempt an entire month. It can be done, Noel00. Many people have learned to stick to substantive issues and to eschew character assassination. You could someday be one of them.

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No more personal remarks or bringing in spats from other boards please.

We do keep track of "who started it":

...DCP does not sound as arrogant as one might think he is, yet he was speaking to a different audience (Not consisting of LDS and those wicked "exlds")

The topic is: "Replying to Latter-day Saints View of Islam."

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I want to top this thread, in the hope that Mr. Noel00 will see my response to him. I'm entirely serious.

Continuously bringing up my alleged viciousness and arrogance contributes absolutely nothing to any substantive conversation here.

Gratuitously dragging domestic Australian politics into the thread is mere irrelevant distraction, if it is not also a pointless attempt to provoke.

Casually (and falsely) accusing me of hatred toward people with whom, as a matter of fact, I've had very cordial relations is nothing less than slander.

Irrelevantly summoning up RayA's purportedly objectionable language somewhere else has little of significance to say about his behavior here, which, even the accuser Mr. Noel00 admits, has been "reasonable and nice."

Noel00's behavior toward me and RayA has long seemed, to me at least, to resemble a fairly obsessive vendetta. In this regard, he has certain beloved themes (such as those above) that he eventually seeks to drag into threads to which they are completely irrelevant. I'm asking him to stop it. Now, if he's capable.

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Noel00's behavior toward me and RayA has long seemed, to me at least, to resemble a fairly obsessive vendetta.  In this regard, he has certain beloved themes (such as those above) that he eventually seeks to drag into threads to which they are completely irrelevant.  I'm asking him to stop it.  Now, if he's capable.

Dan took the words right out of my mouth. This is precisely what I had planned to come on and say today. This is very annoying and distracting, these constant personal attacks that have absolutely nothing to do with the discussions and have gone on for too long, and the reason I post on FAIR is because it is free from this because of the moderation, and allows more substantial discussions to occur. That's my say, and I had to say it because I've had enough taunting from Noel00. If he had his say without getting personal I would have no complaint. But it seems he lacks sufficient substance in his posts to avoid that.

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So . . . what to do about those Muslims who claim the G-d-given right nay responsibility to reinstate the Caliphate, reacquire all the "lost territories" in Europe and elsewhere, and extend the Caliphate so that it covers the globe?

How could one possibly square such a thing with Daniel's vision as understood by LDS?

How disturbing that > 70% of Saudi men admire the spouter of such things!

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So . . . what to do about those Muslims who claim the G-d-given right nay responsibility to reinstate the Caliphate, reacquire all the "lost territories" in Europe and elsewhere, and extend the Caliphate so that it covers the globe?

How could one possibly square such a thing with Daniel's vision as understood by LDS?

It ain't gonna happen.

How disturbing that > 70% of Saudi men admire the spouter of such things!

Disturbing it is. No question.

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How disturbing that > 70% of Saudi men admire the spouter of such things!

I don't know what the answer is. What I'm seeing in Australia is an attempt by some formerly outspoken Muslim leaders (condemning "the West") to encourage Muslims to become more integrated into Australian society. This is a photo, in today's news, of the leader of Australian Muslims, Sheik Taj al-Din al-Hilaly, sporting the colours of the Sydney Swans, a team in the AFL (Australian Football League):

0,,5258143,00.jpg

The Sheik has previously been reported as saying some very critical and even threatening things against Australia while overseas in the Middle East, but in recent times he has been trying very hard to bridge the gap between Muslims and Australians. I see this as a very positive thing. The news reports along with the above photo says:

The mufti, who is in the middle of the Islamic fasting season of Ramadan, said he planned to be glued to the television for the football finals on the weekend.

Although he is still interested in the outcome of the NRL grand final between Melbourne Storm and the Brisbane Broncos, the mufti believes the Sydney Swans v West Coast Eagles at the MCG on Saturday is the game to watch.

"I will be watching it. It's important for everyone in NSW to get involved and show support for the only NSW team left in the grand finals," he said.

Maybe, and this is only my thought, it is a good thing for Muslims to migrate to countries like Australia because it seems to tame the otherwise radical ideas fostered by "group think" among other Muslim nations like Saudi Arabia. When they get a taste of the good life here, they really don't want to lose it, and the Sheik's actions demonstrate that. It makes no sense for them to try to turn Australia into the very countries they left to find more freedom.

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