Joseph Smith's death

[Calm]

But the phrase, even if he said it, doesn't necesarily imply that he knew he was going to die.

The phrase is often used where death is not imminent, such as "here comes the bride like a lamb to the slaughter"

In other words, she is going forth with a smile on her face, not realizing what she is get into. It certainly doesnt mean she is going to be killed.

Though I can see how someone who genuinely believe that JS was a prophet could latch onto that statement, as evidence that he could see the future.

Consider the whole quote:

"I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer

[why me]

But the phrase, even if he said it, doesn't necesarily imply that he knew he was going to die.

The phrase is often used where death is not imminent, such as  "here comes the bride like a lamb to the slaughter" 

In other words, she is going forth with a smile on her face, not realizing what she is get into. It certainly doesnt mean she is going to be killed. 

Though I can see how someone who genuinely  believe that JS was a prophet could latch onto that statement, as evidence that he could see the future.

Consider the whole quote:

"I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer

[Scott Lloyd]

But the phrase, even if he said it, doesn't necesarily imply that he knew he was going to die.

The phrase is often used where death is not imminent, such as

[Jaybear]

Now hopefully jaybear can see the light and understand the lds position on this matter. The quotation seems pretty clear to me. Do you see the point jaybear?

Crystal clear, and you are absolutely right. The full text provides clarity on this issue.

Bear in mind, if the statement had been published before he died, I would be extremely impressed.

[Jaybear]

Scot: As Jaybear seems unacquainted with the Doctrine and Covenants, perhaps he is also unaware of the Biblical allusion in the phrase "lamb to the slaughter."

I am aware of the biblical phrase.

I stand by my earlier critism. If the phrase is used to describe JS going to his death, peacefully without a strugle, its innacurate. Again, I don't blame his for taking and using a gun on his assailants. Nor do I blame him for trying to call out for help to the masons.

If it used to show that he knew he was going to die, then it quite appropriate.

[Daniel Peterson]

There is considerable evidence that, from about late 1841 or 1842 on, Joseph Smith felt that his death was near. (Richard Anderson published a very little-known but fascinating piece on that very subject, some years ago, in an obscure BYU publication. I wish it had received better circulation. Perhaps, now that I think of it, I'll try to see that it does.)

As to his lamb-to-the-slaughter statement, yes, it would have been nice if that had been published prior to his death. Unfortunately, though, the highly efficient anti-Mormons who murdered the Prophet didn't allow his publishers very much time to get it through the press. They killed him too quickly. Even with today's technology, a day or two isn't usually enough to get something published.

[Scott Lloyd]

Now hopefully jaybear can see the light and understand the lds position on this matter.    The quotation seems pretty clear to me. Do you see the point jaybear? 

Crystal clear, and you are absolutely right. The full text provides clarity on this issue.

Bear in mind, if the statement had been published before he died, I would be extremely impressed.

According to John Taylor's account in the cited Doctrine and Covenants section, Joseph uttered those words when he "went to Carthage to deliver himself up the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination."

Hardly enough time, in those days of hand-set type, to rush something into print beforehand.

Bummer when you have to rely on eyewitness testimony, eh Jaybear?

[Scott Lloyd]

Scot: As Jaybear seems unacquainted with the Doctrine and Covenants, perhaps he is also unaware of the Biblical allusion in the phrase "lamb to the slaughter."

I am aware of the biblical phrase.

I stand by my earlier critism. If the phrase is used to describe JS going to his death, peacefully without a strugle, its innacurate. Again, I don't blame his for taking and using a gun on his assailants. Nor do I blame him for trying to call out for help to the masons.

If it used to show that he knew he was going to die, then it quite appropriate.

I don't see that anyone here is contending otherwise.

[Who Knows]

There is considerable evidence that, from about late 1841 or 1842 on, Joseph Smith felt that his death was near.

Hey, I was going to say that.

Of course, to me, it's like prophesying "I'm going to get a speeding ticket" (while always driving over the speed limit wherever I go).

[Daniel Peterson]

Of course, to me, it's like prophesying "I'm going to get a speeding ticket" (while always driving over the speed limit wherever I go).

But the thrust of Professor Anderson's article is that there was a distinct change in Joseph's Nauvoo attitude. Up until the point in his life (late 1841 or 1842, if I recall correctly) where the change occurred, Joseph felt that his mission was unfinished and that, owing to divine protection, his life was beyond the power of his enemies. After that, there is a dramatic alteration in his comments to friends and associates.

It's really quite an interesting study.

[Scott Lloyd]

There is considerable evidence that, from about late 1841 or 1842 on, Joseph Smith felt that his death was near.

Hey, I was going to say that.

Of course, to me, it's like prophesying "I'm going to get a speeding ticket" (while always driving over the speed limit wherever I go).

All the more reason for Joseph to run from the authorities at Carthage instead of giving himself up to them.

I'm starting to lose track: Just what is it that the critics are contending on this thread?

[Who Knows]

I'm starting to lose track: Just what is it that the critics are contending on this thread?

Dang it! I forgot to consult my 'anti-mormonism guide'. Section IIb(3) states, in part, "Critics must never differ in their opinions - even if you don't agree with each other, you must always give the appearance of agreement."

I have no idea what anyone else is arguing. Myself, I'm sure JS thought he was going to die. Look at everything he went through, he had to know that he would eventually be 'offed'. People in those types of situations usually do.

[Jaybear]

Hardly enough time, in those days of hand-set type, to rush something into print beforehand.

Bummer when you have to rely on eyewitness testimony, eh Jaybear?

If I knew I was going to die, I would take the time to write a letter to my wives.

But yes, you are correct, eyewitness testimony, published years after the event is terribly unreliable.

[Scott Lloyd]

Hardly enough time, in those days of hand-set type, to rush something into print beforehand.

Bummer when you have to rely on eyewitness testimony, eh Jaybear?

If I knew I was going to die, I would take the time to write a letter to my wives.

But yes, you are correct, eyewitness testimony, published years after the event is terribly unreliable.

The Doctrine and Covenants section we have been citing here, written by John Taylor, who was with Joseph and Hyrum when they were killed, is the official announcement to the Church written and published very soon after the event.

You really should look at the Doctrine and Covenants, Jaybear. I can tell you where to get an inexpensive copy.

[Alf O'Mega]

When Gen. Smith went to Carthage just as the cavalry met him for the purpose of obtaining the 'State Arms,' he said to a friend, I am going like a lamb to the slaughter: but I am calm as a summer's morning: I have a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward all men: I shall die innocent. (Times and Seasons 5:13 [July 15, 1844], 585)

When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said: "I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer's morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I SHALL DIE INNOCENT, AND IT SHALL YET BE SAID OF ME

[Daniel Peterson]

Hardly enough time, in those days of hand-set type, to rush something into print beforehand.

Bummer when you have to rely on eyewitness testimony, eh Jaybear?

If I knew I was going to die, I would take the time to write a letter to my wives.

That catty wives was certainly an admirable touch, Jaybear.

In fact, the text of a letter from Joseph Smith to Emma Smith dated 27 June 1844 -- the very day of his murder by anti-Mormons -- appears on p. 611 of Dean C. Jessee, ed., The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1984), and a photograph of the letter appears on p. 613.

But yes, you are correct, eyewitness testimony, published years after the event is terribly unreliable.

I disagree with the claim that eyewitness testimony is "terribly unreliable" if it is published years after the event. Earlier publication is, of course, clearly preferable, but later publication doesn't necessarily invalidate testimony. It simply has to be used with appropriate care.

But your comment is irrelevant to the reality in this case.

Unless I'm mistaken, what is now Doctrine and Covenants 135 (including, of course, 135:4) was published as Section 111 of the 1844 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants. Since the alleged statement was made toward the very end of June 1844, this allows for an interval of (at the very most) six months -- not "years" -- between its utterance and its publication. But the statement itself was cited in the 15 July 1844 Times and Seasons (5:585). That's roughly three weeks after the event -- which is scarcely "years."

Dang them facts!

[Calm]

But yes, you are correct, eyewitness testimony, published years after the event is terribly unreliable.

It was apparently published at most, months after their deaths:

http://www.dcsites.com/dc040.htm

The 1844 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants was also published here, which was the first edition to include the tribute to Joseph and Hyrum.

They died June 27, 1844.

[Scott Lloyd]

Just wondering whether Jaybear is ever this unprepared when he argues a court case.

[Jaybear]

That catty wives was certainly an admirable touch, Jaybear.

Hey, what can I say. It would have been awkward to suggest he would only write to one of his wives.

In fact, the text of a letter from Joseph Smith to Emma Smith dated 27 June 1844 -- the very day of his murder by anti-Mormons -- appears on p. 611 of Dean C. Jessee, ed., The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1984), and a photograph of the letter appears on p. 613.

So, don't leave me hanging did he say he was going to die? Did he compare himself to a lamb? The more I read, the more I am inclined to actually believe he expected he was going to die.

Unless I'm mistaken, what is now Doctrine and Covenants 135 (including, of course, 135:4) was published as Section 111 of the 1844 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants. Since the alleged statement was made toward the very end of June 1844, this allows for an interval of (at the very most) six months -- not "years" -- between its utterance and its publication.

The timing of the publication, six months later, certainly makes the recollection of the statement far more credible and reliable. No dispute here. Though it doesnt mean it really happened that way. There are certainly reasons why one would want to exagerate the truth.

[Daniel Peterson]

So, don't leave me hanging did he say he was going to die?

No, he didn't. He raised the possibility, but also expressed some hope. Which is exactly what I would probably do in a letter to my wife, whatever I actually thought about my actual prospects.

Did he compare himself to a lamb?

No.

The more I read, the more I am inclined to actually believe he expected he was going to die.

I'm reasonably certain that he suspected he was going to die.

Unless I'm mistaken, what is now Doctrine and Covenants 135 (including, of course, 135:4) was published as Section 111 of the 1844 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants. Since the alleged statement was made toward the very end of June 1844, this allows for an interval of (at the very most) six months -- not "years" -- between its utterance and its publication.

The timing of the publication, six months later, certainly makes the recollection of the statement far more credible and reliable. No dispute here.

Actually, as I pointed out, it was only three weeks later.

[KevinG]

Can someone save some of these wonderful quotes on being discerning about eyewitness, second hand and years after the fact reports of events? I'd like to remind Jaynbear and others of their exacting standards the next time we discuss Josephs money digging, tranlating with a peep stone in a hat, polygamy and Emmas reaction, Oliver Cowderys struggles, the Spalding manuscripts, Rigdons claims to authority, the Journal of Discourses, Mountain Meadows Massacre, The Salamander Letters, President Packers neighbors... etc.

[Jaybear]

Can someone save some of these wonderful quotes on being discerning about eyewitness, second hand and years after the fact reports of events? I'd like to remind Jaynbear and others of their exacting standards the next time we discuss Josephs money digging, tranlating with a peep stone in a hat, polygamy and Emmas reaction, Oliver Cowderys struggles, the Spalding manuscripts, Rigdons claims to authority, the Journal of Discourses, Mountain Meadows Massacre, The Salamander Letters, President Packers neighbors... etc.

You don't need to remind me. I know how to evaluate evidence.

DCP:  No, he didn't. He raised the possibility, but also expressed some hope. Which is exactly what I would probably do in a letter to my wife, whatever I actually thought about my actual prospects.

Well if he expressed hope, it certainly suggests that he did not "know" he was going to die. Then again, as you suggest, he could have lied to Emma. I might have done the same as well.

[Scott Lloyd]

Well if he expressed hope, it certainly suggests that he did not "know" he was going to die. Then again, as you suggest, he could have lied to Emma. I might have done the same as well.

My impression is that he knew he would be slain for his beliefs at some point, though he might not have known the exact instant or circumstances. Which means he had every reason to vigorously resist death and defend himself and his friends, right up to the point when the thugs that were storming the jail shot him and his brother.

[KevinG]

Can someone save some of these wonderful quotes on being discerning about eyewitness, second hand and years after the fact reports of events?

[Irondukesteve]

I am confused. From historical accounts Joseph and the rest removed their garments because it was really hot oustide, Willard was the only one to keep his on.