Joseph Smith's death

[freakin a man]

If Joseph truly was going "like a lamb to the slaughter", I think we can all be thankful that lambs don't have pepperbox pistols and opposing thumbs.

I think the term "lambs to the slaughter" has to do with a certainty of death, rather than a willingness to die. I don't think lambs get excited and jump to the head of line with the attitude of "Kill me next".

[journeyman]

If Joseph truly was going "like a lamb to the slaughter", I think we can all be thankful that lambs don't have pepperbox pistols and opposing thumbs.

I think the term "lambs to the slaughter" has to do with a certainty of death, rather than a willingness to die. I don't think lambs get excited and jump to the head of line with the attitude of "Kill me next".

I agree, as "lambs to the slaughter" don't run for president either.

[KevinG]

..."lambs to the slaughter" don't run for president either.

You must have missed the Mondale campaign completely. (Perhaps the mods won't see this one amidst the board changes)

[MorningStar]

If Joseph truly was going "like a lamb to the slaughter", I think we can all be thankful that lambs don't have pepperbox pistols and opposing thumbs.

No, but they bite.

Those bad lambs! They shouldn't fight back when people are trying to kill them.

[KevinG]

You know, if Joesph had been a truuuuuue prophet, he would have said, "I go as a Brussel Sprout to the Salad Shooter" as not to offend vegan pacifists sensibilities. He and Hyrum would then have annointed themselves with olive oil and a light balsamic vinagrette, then offered themselves up to the mob on a chilled plate.

[MorningStar]

You know, if Joesph had been a truuuuuue prophet, he would have said, "I go as a Brussel Sprout to the Salad Shooter" as not to offend vegan pacifists sensibilities. He and Hyrum would then have annointed themselves with olive oil and a light balsamic vinagrette, then offered themselves up to the mob on a chilled plate.

cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough

*Laughing and coughing uncontrollably .... Mr. MorningStar wants me to go to the doctor*

[KevinG]

You know, if Joesph had been a truuuuuue prophet, he would have said, "I go as a Brussel Sprout to the Salad Shooter" as not to offend vegan pacifists sensibilities.  He and Hyrum would then have annointed themselves with olive oil and a light balsamic vinagrette, then offered themselves up to the mob on a chilled plate.

cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough cough

*Laughing and coughing uncontrollably .... Mr. MorningStar wants me to go to the doctor*

If a man notices the need to go to the doctor I'd bet its rather serious. Take care of yourself friend. On the bright side you won't miss much, the boards are going down for 24-48 hours tomorrow night for an upgrade. P.S. Momof7 says Hi!

[MorningStar]

You know, if Joesph had been a truuuuuue prophet, he would have said, "I go as a Brussel Sprout to the Salad Shooter" as not to offend vegan pacifists sensibilities.

[why me]

Poor Dr. Shades seems to have high tailed it on this one. Hello Dr. Shades, are you out there? Calling Dr. Shades...calling dr. shades...nope...no one there....you see, where is a doctor when you really need one?

[KevinG]

Poor Dr. Shades seems to have high tailed it on this one. Hello Dr. Shades, are you out there? Calling Dr. Shades...calling dr. shades...nope...no one there....you see, where is a doctor when you really need one?

I think he's busy taking up a collection for a good purpose.

[why me]

Lets just say that Joseph Smith was murdered and that he was murdered for his faith in god. And yes, he went like a lamb to the slaughterhouse and so did his brother...now I have to say, I have to admire Hyrum...such was brotherly love and no greater love can one give for a brother or a sister than one's own life during a dangerous moment or setting (in loving show of support for what could result in one's own death).

[Garden Girl]

MorningStar... go to the doctor...

GG

[KevinG]

Lets just say that Joseph Smith was murdered and that he was murdered for his faith in god. And yes, he went like a lamb to the slaughterhouse and so did his brother...now I have to say, I have to admire Hyrum...such was brotherly love and no greater love can one give for a brother or a sister than one's own life during a dangerous moment or setting (in loving show of support for what could result in one's own death).

Thank you why me. I have a big brother who is like unto Hyrum is to Joesph, in terms of age and loyalty to me. I am also touched by Hyrum and his sacrafice. If there was one good thing in the situation surrounding the Prophets martyrdom it is that Hyrum was at his side the whole time and willing to lay down his life for Prophet, brother and a testimony of the Savior.

God Bless the Prophet Joseph and his big brother Hyrum!

[Jaybear]

Jaybear,

Do you have reference that proves he actually said he was going like a lamb to the slaugter?

There are several. The earliest is probably Times and Seasons 5:585.

Cyrus Wheelock reported in 1854 hearing the statement. And in 1856, Stephen Markham also said he heard JS make the statement.

Dan, thanks for your substantive response.

Morningstar: Those bad lambs! They shouldn't fight back when people are trying to kill them.

Hey, no one blames Joseph Smith for shooting at the mob.

Apparantly there seems to be some misconceptions about what image the phrase "lamb to the slaughter" is intended to invoke in the reader.

Or perhaps some don't mind presenting a misleading image.

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

Have you ever had to deal with animal that knows it is about to be killed?

They object most strenuously.

[why me]

Hey, no one blames Joseph Smith for shooting at the mob.

Apparantly there seems to be some misconceptions about what image the phrase "lamb to the slaughter" is intended to invoke in the reader.

And as I understand it, the gun was given to him by a guard for self protection at the jail. I don't believe that he brought a gun with him. But what do I know...I could be wrong.

[why me]

Lets just say that Joseph Smith was murdered and that he was murdered for his faith in god. And yes, he went like a lamb to the slaughterhouse and so did his brother...now I have to say, I have to admire Hyrum...such was brotherly love and no greater love can one give for a brother or a sister than one's own life during a dangerous moment or setting (in loving show of support for what could result in  one's own death).

Thank you why me. I have a big brother who is like unto Hyrum is to Joesph, in terms of age and loyalty to me. I am also touched by Hyrum and his sacrafice. If there was one good thing in the situation surrounding the Prophets martyrdom it is that Hyrum was at his side the whole time and willing to lay down his life for Prophet, brother and a testimony of the Savior.

God Bless the Prophet Joseph and his big brother Hyrum!

I think that we often over look Hyrum in all this. He followed his brother and gave his life for his brother. He could have stayed home and ate an apple pie. But instead, he showed brotherly love and died for that love.

No lds should overlook Hyrum when discussing love and friendship in Sunday School or in priesthood meetings when such topics come up for discussion. Hyrum gave his life in the service of his brother, a fellow human being.

[MorningStar]

MorningStar... go to the doctor...

GG

Fine! I'm going at 10:15. I want a sticker this time or something.

[MorningStar]

Jaybear,

Do you have reference that proves he actually said he was going like a lamb to the slaugter?

There are several. The earliest is probably Times and Seasons 5:585.

Cyrus Wheelock reported in 1854 hearing the statement. And in 1856, Stephen Markham also said he heard JS make the statement.

Dan, thanks for your substantive response.

Morningstar: Those bad lambs! They shouldn't fight back when people are trying to kill them.

Hey, no one blames Joseph Smith for shooting at the mob.

Apparantly there seems to be some misconceptions about what image the phrase "lamb to the slaughter" is intended to invoke in the reader.

Or perhaps some don't mind presenting a misleading image.

That's right. No one blames him because he didn't bring a gun with him. He went there innocently, knowing he was going to be killed.

[Jaybear]

Jaybear:

Have you ever had to deal with animal that knows it is about to be killed?

They object most strenuously.

I suppose, but that is not what the phrase implies.

The phrase lamb to the slaughter is intended to convey an image on one going forth calmly and gently, as if they were a lamb, unaware of their impending death.

Perhaps in real life lambs put up a big fight, but that really is not the point.

[why me]

Jaybear:

Have you ever had to deal with animal that knows it is about to be killed?

They object most strenuously.

I suppose, but that is not what the phrase implies.

The phrase lamb to the slaughter is intended to convey an image on one going forth calmly and gently, as if they were a lamb, unaware of their impending death.

Perhaps in real life lambs put up a big fight, but that really is not the point.

Okay, I give up, what is the point?? How about this explanation: Joseph Smith went to the slaughterhouse like a human lamb, his human mind intact but also meekly and humbly as a lamb to slaughter. Better?

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

JS lived on a farm. He was familiar with how animals react. Most of the members of the Church lived on farms. They knew how animals react. Most people in the US lived on farms. They knew how animals react. I spent my summers growing up on my uncles farms. I know how animals react.

It is only most modern day Americans lack of having been around farms animals that says they are meek, and don't resist.

Give that lamb and opposable thumb and a AK-47. The results would have been FAR different.

[MorningStar]

Jaybear:

Have you ever had to deal with animal that knows it is about to be killed?

They object most strenuously.

I suppose, but that is not what the phrase implies.

The phrase lamb to the slaughter is intended to convey an image on one going forth calmly and gently, as if they were a lamb, unaware of their impending death.

Perhaps in real life lambs put up a big fight, but that really is not the point.

This was the point - Shades said Joseph Smith didn't know he was going to die. By the phrase Joseph used, he did know he was going to die. Whether you find his use of that phrase accurate or not is irrelevant. I was just trying to establish the fact that he knew he was going to be killed. He did. Shades was wrong.

[Jaybear]

This was the point - Shades said Joseph Smith didn't know he was going to die. By the phrase Joseph used, he did know he was going to die. Whether you find his use of that phrase accurate or not is irrelevant. I was just trying to establish the fact that he knew he was going to be killed. He did. Shades was wrong.

Fair enough.

But the phrase, even if he said it, doesn't necesarily imply that he knew he was going to die.

The phrase is often used where death is not imminent, such as "here comes the bride like a lamb to the slaughter"

In other words, she is going forth with a smile on her face, not realizing what she is get into. It certainly doesnt mean she is going to be killed.

Though I can see how someone who genuinely believe that JS was a prophet could latch onto that statement, as evidence that he could see the future.

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

It doesn't require a Prophet to know whats going on around you.