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Would JS had been killed without polygamy?


cinepro

In your opinion, would the chain of events that culminated in Joseph Smith's 1844 murder have been set in place had polygamy not been restored?  

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  1. 1. In your opinion, would the chain of events that culminated in Joseph Smith's 1844 murder have been set in place had polygamy not been restored?

    • Yes. There were many other factors, and he still would have been jailed and killed (please explain which factors you see as being important, and to what degree polygamy related to the situation).
      21
    • No. While there were other factors, it was the practice of polygamy that escalated the issue to culminate in his murder.
      17


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The "lynch" thread broached the issue, and I am curious how others view the factors that led to the mob killing Joseph Smith.

Obviously there were other factors, from the political to the spiritual. But polygamy does figure into the situation, since William Law cites the practice as a motivator for his animosity against the Prophet. Also, it can be suggested that Joseph's motivation to destroy the Expositor was related to the Expositors publicizing certain aspects of polygamy, and Joseph's desire to keep such practices secret.

I'm curious as to the different attitudes people have, and whether there is any sort of consensus on the issue.

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Polygamy was virtually a non-issue in Missouri, where mobs found plenty of excuse to murder the Saints, dispossess them of their lands, destroy their property and ultimately drive them from the state. The mob even drafted its own manifesto, which, to the point under current discussion, makes no mention of polygamy among the list of grievances against the Saints.

And Joseph was almost killed in Missouri under an illegal order from a militia commander. He was spared only by the refusal of a courageous subordinate to carry out the order.

Polygamy was a convenient excuse for hostility in Illinois, but if had not been there, the mobs would have found something else.

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I did not realize how large a role polygamy played in the prophet's murder until recently.

From what I understand, many in the area were jealous of the Saints properity, and what they were able to accomplish in a relatively short amount of time. I think they were looking for an excuse to come after the LDS, and polygamy gave them that legitimate edge.

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I voted that he would not have been killed in 1844 if it hadn't been for polygamy. No-- if it hadn't been for the secret practice of polygamy. Open polygamy could have been quite different.

He probably would have been killed eventually, however, because of other forces (political) against him. That is, unless he made like Moses/Brigham Young and led the saints west to escape his enemies.

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Befriending Indians (the enemies of the State), freeing slaves as well as inviting them into the state, they were sharing aka they weren't buying from powerful local merchants, growing so fast that we might of been able to take political control of the state which threatened powerful polical figures, raising a sucessful church that was running against other powerful and very competative churches and their paid minsiters.

They tried to kill him in Liberty jail, and who knows how many other times before the Expositor was destroied.

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while polymagy was a very large issue, I dont think it was THE issue.

Joseph Smith was becoming a large political figure.

The Masons closed down the Nauvoo lodge's charter.

JOhn C Bennett was still spreading his lies about Joseph, and it wasnt just about his 'harem' he was getting people riled up that the mormons would be too powerful a force, militarily and politically.

Missiourians were still after Joseph from the Mormon War, years earlier.

and of course as a mormon, I beleive Joseph was required to seal his testimony with his blood.

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This is one of the few times that I flat disagree with the Dude. Violence against the church was already escalating long before polygamy was public knowledge. Joseph Smith had a knack for gaining lifelong friends and lifelong enemies. There didn't seem to be much middle ground for people who knew him. I think he would have been killed eventually without polygamy.

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This is one of the few times that I flat disagree with the Dude. Violence against the church was already escalating long before polygamy was public knowledge. Joseph Smith had a knack for gaining lifelong friends and lifelong enemies. There didn't seem to be much middle ground for people who knew him. I think he would have been killed eventually without polygamy.

Sorry my post wasn't clear but I think we actually agree. He would have been killed eventually if he stayed in the area.

He was jailed in 1844 for ordering the press destroyed to keep polygamy a secret. That is what put him in the hands of the mob, and led to his death at that time instead of "eventually".

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I always thought that the mob gathered after the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor was merely the flashpoint for the gathering and building resentment against the Mormons for their growing political power in the area, and Joseph Smith's political aspirations. Polygamy doesn't get you killed. Fooling with someone's money or power base will.

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This is one of the few times that I flat disagree with the Dude.  Violence against the church was already escalating long before polygamy was public knowledge.  Joseph Smith had a knack for gaining lifelong friends and lifelong enemies.  There didn't seem to be much middle ground for people who knew him.  I think he would have been killed eventually without polygamy.

Sorry my post wasn't clear but I think we actually agree. He would have been killed eventually if he stayed in the area.

He was jailed in 1844 for ordering the press destroyed to keep polygamy a secret. That is what put him in the hands of the mob, and led to his death at that time instead of "eventually".

Then I think your "no" vote should have been a "yes" vote.

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This is one of the few times that I flat disagree with the Dude.  Violence against the church was already escalating long before polygamy was public knowledge.  Joseph Smith had a knack for gaining lifelong friends and lifelong enemies.  There didn't seem to be much middle ground for people who knew him.  I think he would have been killed eventually without polygamy.

Sorry my post wasn't clear but I think we actually agree. He would have been killed eventually if he stayed in the area.

He was jailed in 1844 for ordering the press destroyed to keep polygamy a secret. That is what put him in the hands of the mob, and led to his death at that time instead of "eventually".

Maybe he would have been easier for the mob to find if he hadn't been off marrying so many women! (serpentine!) Maybe polygamy actually extended his life! (It's a joke for those who would take offense!)

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The "yes" voters are being asked to explain their position. However, the "no" response is clearly shaping up to be the minority view. I think some exposition is called for from them as to why they don't think Joseph would have been killed had it not been for polygamy.

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Scott, i thought yes voters thought he would have been killed anyways.. and no voters thought he would not have been killed but because of polygamy>??? am i wrong... therefore, i think you better re think this if i'm right on this one, if not... my bad

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I think we can all agree that, barring Translation, Joseph would have died eventually, of some cause natural or inflicted.

What I am trying to understand is if people think the events around Joseph's death as we currently know them would have been drastically different without polygamy, meaning would there still have been an Expositor-destruction of press- Carthage Jail Murder chain of events?

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He would have been killed eventually if he stayed in the area. 

He was jailed in 1844 for ordering the press destroyed to keep polygamy a secret.  That is what put him in the hands of the mob, and led to his death at that time instead of "eventually".

Then I think your "no" vote should have been a "yes" vote.

The question referred to the chain of events leading to his death in 1844. I think secret polygamy was a required link in the chain, so I voted "no". If the question had just been the one in the title of the thread, then I would have voted "yes".

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Scott, i thought yes voters thought he would have been killed anyways.. and no voters thought he would not have been killed but because of polygamy>??? am i wrong... therefore, i think you better re think this if i'm right on this one, if not... my bad

I re-read my post, and I think I phrased it correctly. I'm sorry if it wasn't clear to you.

The poll asks those who think he would have been killed regardless of polygamy to defend their position. I'm saying it's those who think otherwise who need to substantiate their view, as theirs seems to be the minority position.

Am I making sense?

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What I am trying to understand is if people think the events around Joseph's death as we currently know them would have been drastically different without polygamy, meaning would there still have been an Expositor-destruction of press- Carthage Jail Murder chain of events?

Yes events would have been drastically different without secret polygamy. No, he would not have been killed at Carthage in 1844 without secret polygamy.

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I think we can all agree that, barring Translation, Joseph would have died eventually, of some cause natural or inflicted.

What I am trying to understand is if people think the events around Joseph's death as we currently know them would have been drastically different without polygamy, meaning would there still have been an Expositor-destruction of press- Carthage Jail Murder chain of events?

Why would it have to involve destruction of a press? Could there not have been some other episode, not involving polygmy, in which they found an excuse to murder him? Had it not been for Alexander Doniphan, General Lucas might well have done it in Missouri.

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Early America was full of all kinds of weird sexual experiments, from free love to celibacy. Yet I don't know of too many prominent people who were killed over any of them.

I fully agree that the bitter tongues of apostates, coupled with the thorn of Mormon abolitionism thrust into the side of slavery, helped to seal Joseph's fate.

You think about it. What did people kill each other over to the greatest extent in the US of the 19th century? Political machinations, slavery and wounded pride.

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Didn't a number of early prominent apostates leave because of JS's secret practice of polygamy? And didn't some of these same people have involvement with the anti-mormon feelings around at the time - leading to publishing 'anti-mormonism' in the expositor?

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I think polygamy had it's greatest impact on the size of Utah.  Utah would have become a state decades sooner, and probably would have included parts of Nevada, Idaho and Arizona.  (I don't think Brigham Young would have gotten Southern California though either way...)

I think you may be right about that. But then again, without the bulging families of polygamous Utah to bolster its early population, perhaps it might have stayed a sparsely settled territory, ala Arizona, for a few more decades.

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