Why is polygamy such a hot-button topic?

[liz3564]

We had a polygamy thread shut down recently because some of the comments became too crass. I'm hoping we can "keep it clean" and discuss this topic as adults so the mods don't have to close another thread.

What struck me about the prior thread, and what I would like to focus on, is how many faithful Latter-Day Saint men and women had problems with fathoming practicing plural marriage. It seems to "go against the grain" of everything else we have been taught about developing intimacy (and, for the record, I'm not talking about strictly physical intimacy, but emotional intimacy as well) with our spouse.

Growing up in the Church, I was always taught that I would partner with my husband in developing a family, and that if we remained faithful, that partnership would last through the eternities. What a wonderful blessing!

As close as I am to many of my female friends, I can't imagine sharing the kind of bond I share with my husband with any of them, let alone a stranger.

It simply goes against everything I feel at the core of my heart.

There are some of you here who spoke of being offspring of polygamous marriages. Some of you commented that these marriages were successful. I'm happy that they were. And, I also don't think that anyone who practiced plural marriage should have been jailed, or taken away from their families.

My issue comes with being "commanded" to practice it. This is where I think the heartache comes in.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that my thinking is right and theirs is wrong. I respect other's opinions.

I don't feel, however, that my thoughts are "evil" or that I am an unfaithful LDS for feeling the way I feel about this issue. I think I'm being honest, and that there are many others who feel the same way.

I'm genuinely interested in different thoughts and opinions, and I hope that we can keep this conversation civil.

[Doctor Steuss]

First. My humble apologies as I was a contributor to the previous thread being shut down. I ask for your forgiveness.

I had a conversation with my mother last night about this topic. I have trouble fathoming a plural marriage. I asked her what her views were. She commented that she would have a little trouble

[pssst]

Most of the faithfull wives ive talked with about polygamy, agree that they hope polygamy never comes back...and if it does they wont be part of the "pluralwivesgroup". thats a huge contradiction as i see it, and very problematic one if you are (and wish) to be a faithfull member but hoping one of the huge doctrines never comes back....

i started the thread about how many were willing to practice it, expecting to find a way higher number of lds members being eager to practice it (i must admit)...i also admit that the results were quite a surprise.

i dont know if its western thoughts or what but i cant imagine loving other women just as the same as loving the first, without making the first feel bad or something.

[Moksha]

This is a topic that must be hard for the TBMs in the Church, especially the women. While it is not coming back anytime soon, it is never-the-less hard for TBMs to envision themselves doing it.

Three problems I see inherent in Polygamy:

1.) Breaking the law

2.) Lying about it

3.) Less quality time with your wife and her children.

I think the vast majority of civilized human beings have been monogamous for a reason. It works better.

Here is a question for LDS scientists: With all the intrafamily marriages in the Kingston Polygamist Clan, is there any possibility a new species can arise or will they just suffer increasing defects?

[Nighthawke]

Here is a question for LDS scientists: With all the intrafamily marriages in the Kingston Polygamist Clan, is there any possibility a new species can arise or will they just suffer increasing defects?

It's comments like this one that get polygamy threads shut down.

[thesometimesaint]

Moksha:

Three problems I see inherent in Polygamy:

1.) Breaking the law

2.) Lying about it

3.) Less quality time with your wife and her children

1. If it were to become legal and authorized by the Church that would of course negate reason #1

2. If it were to become legal and authorized by the Church that would of course remove any reason to lie about it at least to this TBM.

3. They ARE your wives and children. As such we would be under the same obligations of "quality time" regardless of when they entered the family.

[Nighthawke]

My issue comes with being "commanded" to practice it. This is where I think the heartache comes in.

Is any marriage, monogamous or polygamous, free of heartache?

In many instances the first wives initiated plural marriages, they were often the ones who chose additional wives. After all, it just wouldn't look right for married men to be flirting with other women would it? In the case of Emmeline B. Wells she is the one who went to Daniel H. Wells and asked him to marry her. She became his sixth wife. We even had plural wives fighting for their rights to practice plural marriage who traveled to Washington, D.C. to meet with President Hayes and his wife to plead their case.

[liz3564]

Here is a question for LDS scientists:

[Dunamis]

We know that everyone does not like plural marraige. After everyone informs each other of their feelings there is nowhere to go except to start to argue over how everyone feels.

If this thread does not produce something else it will be very quickly closed.

[katherine the great]

We had a polygamy thread shut down recently because some of the comments became too crass.

My bad. I gave in to temptation.

[Elphaba Lives!]

My issue comes with being "commanded" to practice it.  This is where I think the heartache comes in.

Is any marriage, monogamous or polygamous, free of heartache?

In many instances the first wives initiated plural marriages, they were often the ones who chose additional wives. After all, it just wouldn't look right for married men to be flirting with other women would it? In the case of Emmeline B. Wells she is the one who went to Daniel H. Wells and asked him to marry her. She became his sixth wife. We even had plural wives fighting for their rights to practice plural marriage who traveled to Washington, D.C. to meet with President Hayes and his wife to plead their case.

And yet Sister Wells was terribly unhappy in her plural marriage, because her husband seemed to have no interest in her.

Even though I am no longer a member, I find Ms. Wells commitment to the "principle," as commanded by God, to be awe inspiring. She really went through a great deal of anguish and ached for his tender touch, which she never (or rarely) received.

You can imagine how she felt as she watched him ride around in a carriage with another wife and family by his side, when she was having a difficult time putting supper on the table.

Yet, you're right. You could not find a more staunch supporter of polygamy than Ms. Wells. That is because she truly believed that the Lord had commanded the Saints to practice polygamy. Those who did not not would not be allowed into the Celestial Kingdom; thus the term, "Celestial Marriage." She did believe she had that to look forward to.

Elphie

[Doctor Steuss]

Is plural marriage even a common practice anywhere in the world anymore, or has monogamy become the norm?

[thesometimesaint]

Doctor Steuss:

No. Many parts of Africa, and the Middle East still practice polygamy legally. Though as they become more Westernized they generally give it up.

[Analytics]

When contemporary Mormons think about eternal marriage they think of a romantic relationship that does not end at death. They think about soul mates

[why me]

Polygamy is an hot issue because people make it hot. We live in a day and age where people cannot envision something that is out of the ordinary or which seems to contradict the human situation. Polygamy is also a hot issue because it takes people out of their comfort zones and most people do not want to be taken out of such comfort zones.

And it is here that we have the problem. To realize that comfort zones are meant to be broken, if not through practice, then at least through discussion and dialogue is an important part of the knowledge process. In fact, progression comes through the ability to exist outside a comfort zone, which has been artificially established by socialization and comformity.

Women especially cannot envision entering the polygamous zone because of such comfort zones as has been established through one man, one woman relationships. And men are not far behind in this regard. They are also not exactly supporters of a return to polygamy.

That being said, hopefully we can discuss outside our comfort zones and learn in the process by experiencing the actual freedom of a discussion that crosses over into another zone.

[liz3564]

We know that everyone does not like plural marraige. After everyone informs each other of their feelings there is nowhere to go except to start to argue over how everyone feels.

If this thread does not produce something else it will be very quickly closed.

I think that's a blanket statement that is not necessarily true from what I've heard from individuals. Some individuals who have posted on this and other polygamy threads have embraced the concept of the principle and have defended their reasons as to why. Nighthawke and Charity are good examples of this.

My question on the topic does involve feelings. It's a very emotional topic. If you choose to close the thread based on that, obviously, since you're a moderator, that's your option. I would hope that you would not. Many threads on the board have initiated high emotion from both sides of issues.

My question to members who have very counter feelings to plural marriage is this:

How do you, as a faithful Latter-Day Saint, come to terms with this principle? Do you compartmentalize it and just assume that "it will all make sense in the next life"?

It's a fundamental doctrine, and, frankly, one that I have struggled with accepting, so I am curious as to how others come to terms with it.

[Nighthawke]

And yet Sister Wells was terribly unhappy in her plural marriage, because her husband seemed to have no interest in her.

And yet, Sis. Wells did find great happiness in her plural marriage later in life. Daniel Wells provided Emmeline and her family with her own house, food, clothing and so forth. So they might not have been lovers at the beginning but they certainly were years later. Even during the years of persecution, Emmeline and Daniel loved each other enough to risk being caught and jailed:

To see [Daniel] now meant clandestine visits, which Emmeline found irksome and ridiculous. What might have been pleasant visits after his long absence were furtive and spoiled, [Emmeline] wrote, "by having to steal away under cover of night for fear of the deputies under the Edmund's law--such humbug."

- Carol Cornwall Madsen, An Advocate for Women: The Public Life of Emmeline B. Wells 1870-1920, p. 238-239.

[KevinG]

It would be fascinating to me to have a discussion of polygamous marriage in which the problems found in monogamous marriage, or factors external to that marriage are not used to criticise it. In other words if you take neglect, unrighteous dominion, abuse, persecution by law, salcious reports in eastern magazines and the like out of the equation, and simply look at the marriage arrangement itself (balancing the positive and negative moments from peoples journals and first hand accounts)... If we were to have a discussion about monogamous marriage and use millitant feminism essays, statements of recent divorcees, fathers rights web sites and the like, we'd end up with a pretty ugly picture of monogamy too.

Most criticisms of bad polygamous marraiges are the same as bad monogamous ones. While polygamy may lend itself to certain marital struggles, it also has advantages in other ways, as testified to by the sisters who lived in the system.

A truly objective discussion would almost be impossible, because of the admittedly charged subject, and the distance we have from those who actually lived it.

Unfortunately people tend to take their side, and then use all of the evidence that supports their view. (i.e. If I accept that the Principle is the Lord's law when He commands it I'm going to post the positive statements from those who lived it, while someone who opposes that view will resonate with and post the negative stories or angry journal entries from those who were angry about it.)

This is at the heart of why I feel it's a hot button issue. I've gotten increasingly heistant to enter into discussions about the topic because I feel they too easily get superficial or plain old crude.

[thesometimesaint]

Analytics:

I've never read that monogamous relationships were the highth of Mormondoms marriages, or that polygamous ones were either.

I can not concieve of a Heaven without my Grandparents, my parents, my wife, my children, their wives, and their children. Doesn't sound terribly neuclear to me.

I've read D&C 132 in its entirety many times, and I(and our currant leaders) don't get YOUR interpretation.

[Garden Girl]

At this point of my life the issue is moot... I am widowed... however, it is my personal opinion that if indeed polygamy is practiced in the Celestial Kingdom it will not be "required" or forced, but we will have choice... agency ... also, I believe that we will have a different perspective beyond the veil, and a complete understanding of God's purposes and plans for his children... if I were younger and in a current marriage, I would not want to live polygamy here, but I would trust that beyond the veil, in the presence of our Heavenly Father and the Savior, all will be perfect and in order. If that includes polygamy, then I will have the understanding and eternal perspective deeper than in this sphere...

The Garden Girl

[KevinG]

The next question is how I came to terms with it as part of our doctrine...

It is easier for me now as a husband, a father of a large family, and a friend to many women in fatherless households. My wife has told me that in the eternities she will not feel right about having a good man to herself while her friends do not share that blessing. If the men in the world do not repent and take care of these good sisters, she fully expects me to do my share to make sure they are not neglected.

Currently when I have the time and money we already do yardwork, lend automobiles, share dates and vacations, share meals, watch kids, help through generous fast offerings, and a myriad of things to ease the burden of single motherhood in our friends. The only thing we don't do is share the kind of intimacy reserved for marriage. One thing I can say about these experiences that flies in the face of most arguments, is that when the closeness of family is shared, the attention and love given and received is not divided, it is multiplied. (However as I said I cannot speak for the issue of marital intimacy - and I admit that this seems to be a much more complex part of the equation). However, marital intimacy is not the sum total of marriage.

People multiplying resources, time and familial love by sharing them fits quite well with the doctrines about raising up seed to the righteous annointed of the Lord, through the Principle (which is the biggest single doctrinal reason I have identified). I can see families of complex and large size prospering by sharing their time, talents and energy, in ways that two parents could not do by themselves.

The physical intimacy issue is another matter, and I cannot fully comprehend how that would, or should be handled- other than to assume a great deal of sensitivity, privacy and even charity on the part of all invloved would be needed to handle it.

[charity]

Dad of 7 and Garden Girl, exactly right.

I would just add that this culture, while still throwing up its hands in horror at the idea of polygamy is being very hypocritical. The number of married people having extra-marital relationships, the number of people engaged in serial polygamy, either with marriage or without, and the interest in the HBO show on polygamy. (Those who follow the show are not just watching it to be shocked and outraged. If so you would find non-Mormons up in arms that such a show was on TV.)

I think plural marriage wouldn't be such a hot button topic, if people would ask the important questions. Instead of focusing on how the men and women would countenance the man having marital relations with more than one woman, why don't they ask how could a man imagine taking on the financial responsibiliity for multiple wives and children? Those men who think 1 wife and 2 kids are hard to support would really have a time with 35 wives and 57 children!

[Del March]

I used to think I could never stop hating polygamy. And then I got married.

Don't get me wrong! I have a wonderful marriage, to an adorable husband. But I have come to realise that some of the romantic concepts I used to have are not very compatible with the reality of married life.

Examples:

- Wanting to be married to a strong faithful LDS man is great. But then, you'd better learn very quickly to be on your own at Church, at the Temple, and in pretty much any LDS circumstance, because he'll almost always be off somewhere having a meeting or something. I almost cried in despair (I was pregnant, and as such "slightly" over-emotional ) when my husband was called in the Bishopric in our former ward, just 4 months after our wedding, because it meant I was going to be sitting alone during Sacrament meetings yet again. I also remembered the families of my home branch presidents waiting for them until impossible hours on Sundays. And then there are all the meetings during the week, and all the special meetings. Next week-end is district conference, for example. Most other people will go only on Sunday, but our family also have to go on Saturday because we have an interview as a couple, and then my husband has a leadership meeting (he's in the branch presidency - still not sitting with us on Sundays, nope )

But then, compared to the early LDS missionaries' wives, who had to do for entire months or years without their husbands, I'm still amazingly lucky.

However, I wouldn't mind having some family to sit with me, wait with me, and help me manage my son.

- I'm a stay-at-home mom, and my health isn't great. This means that I spend most days at home, alone with my son, while my husband is working. I love it, but intellectually, this is murder! That's one reason why I use and abuse this forum: because I really need adult company! I also need adult faithful LDS people to interact with. I try to talk with my husband as much as I can, but it's not always easy to do (impractical shifts, busy days, etc...). So I wouldn't mind having some adult faithful LDS ladies to discuss all kinds of matters, including spiritual and/or from an LDS angle, with.

- I want to always become a better person. The best way to do that is challenge. Having to deal with sister-wives would be an amazing opportunity to grow and develop all kinds of good traits. In particular, I think it would be a golden way to develop the characteristics of charity.

- Sometimes, my husband and I just become too much for the other. Whether we're cranky, or depressed, or whatever, sometimes we both wish someone else could take care of the other.

- My sister-wives could keep our son while we do something (like going to the temple or to the movies) (and me theirs, of course). Right now, it's always a problem to figure out "what to do with the kid", whenever we have or want to do something just the two of us.

The downsides:

- I wouldn't see much of my husband. Well, I already don't. Whether he's working overtime, or having all kinds of meetings right and left, I already don't see him much of the day. And it's not like he's the only one who can do everything he does for me: sister-wives could take over some of his current duties towards me.

- It would be hard to see him sharing intimacy (whether physical, emotional, or whatever) with other wives. True, of course. But if his other wives make him happy, I'm happy too. My utmost goal where he is concerned is to make him happy, so if he'd be happy with polygamy, then I'd be happy for him. Moreover, I don't fool myself into thinking that I'm some kind of goddess who entirely fulfills him. I'm sure there are things I don't give him, that other women could give him.

- The sex thing. Honestly, I don't care. Sex isn't what matters, the intimacy, especially emotional, is what matters to me. As long as he doesn't start comparing my "performance" to that of his other wives (and he wouldn't, not his type), then fine with me.

I've probably forgot points, on both sides of the equation. Please feel free to add them.

So overall, I think that the advantages of a well-chosen polygamous lifestyle (the man and the women carefully picking each other, not just on physical appearance - just like for a monogamous marriage, in short!) would win over the downsides, as far as I am concerned. It would be very scary and strange to take the plunge, but if I knew it was God's will, I'd be quite excited too I think.

Del

[KevinG]

I've probably forgot points, on both sides of the equation. Please feel free to add them.

I would never have a sharp razor blade to my name, ever again.

Perhaps this is why Brigham had a beard later in life?

(oops... Mom of 7 reading over my shoulder says I'm a brat, and for the record she does not take my razor to shave her legs. )

[Del March]

I forgot: I work much better around the house when I'm having friendly people to share the work with me or just to keep me company. I HATE doing housework on my own, or preparing meals, things like that. But if I'm having a nice conversation with someone, I can get a lot accomplished without even noticing it!

Del