How To Keep Your Mormon Testimony

[Froggie]

When you are on a similar plane, you won't judge him harsly. If you are judging him harshly, go repent.  And again.  Get your fat butts off your computer chair and bake a chicken/stuffing casserole for your neighbor who is sick.  Part if living the mormon religion is refraining from telling everyone else that their version of their mormon religion is wrong.

Maybe Froggie, just maybe there are some of us who have been on a similar plane, or maybe even a plane much harsher then he's ever been on and then here he is judging us. So Froggie, in lieu of just directing your " go repent" comment to us who don't hold him in very high regard, why don't you tell him to go repent also.

I bet I don't have to tell Bob to repent. I bet, given his level of introspection, that he is duly aware of his imperfections and shortcomings. I sat across the desk from President Monson in 2003 discussing Bob McCue specifically. After reading Bob's (long) letter of earnest concerns, President Monson did not mention Bob needing to repent. President Monson discussed Bob's great need to relax, not search for facts but search for peace in his heart so he would be calm in all things regarding spirituality.

That's the message Bob needs. Not this board. I hope he does find measure of peace, but he is certainly not going to find it here in this place where some of the most vindictive and judgmental mormons I have ever encountered reside. Not all, but a choice few. They are not here to bring a spirit of good. They thrive on contention under the guise of religious discussion.

Bob, Bob. The best thing I ever did was to start studying eastern philosophies. I virtually retrained my mind from the extremes of the natural man being carnal and evil and bad and needing to be "corrected" by religion to one that said man is good, a piece of clay wanting to be moulded in gentle ways. I recommend you do the same and redirect your energies and efforts to a perception that is less harsh and more pliable. Fighting, struggling brings no peace. And no sense of satisfaction at the end of the day. Particularly on this board. Nor, might I add, the RfM board. They are two identical boards on opposite ends of the mormon spectrum.

Best wishes, Bob.

Big green hugs,

Froggie

[juliann]

All of you lying deceiving stupid Mormons line up....let's save them some time. Froggie needs to get back to being a good Molly Mormon instead of convincing us how evil we are. So 'fess up, everybody...it is the Christian thing to do.

I am arrogant. I am evil. I am a liar. I deceive people. I am heartless. I'm really really mean when someone attacks me. I mean really mean. I'm insensitive. I don't understand. I make fun of people's pain.

OK...next?

[Del March]

Yes, lets.

So now we are having a "Who's the best Molly Mormon" contest?

As I explained earlier, I bailed out of that contest some time ago, after burning out. So I'm not gonna win, that's for sure

Del

[Calm]

Which is precisely why it is OUR responsibility to determine whether we are going to accept the calls that are extended to us or not! That's a principle my husband learned the hard way: if you say yes to the fifth calling, they WILL propose a sixth one! (And no, I'm not kidding about the numbers...)

It is a wonder to me just how easy it is for things to go wrong in the Church when one abdicates personal responsibility in making choices. I could believe quite easily from this coupled with all the other similar experiences I've seen that God is intent on rubbing our noses in the worthlessness of doing anything without dealing with him first and foremost.

[juliann]

I sat across the desk from President Monson in 2003 discussing Bob McCue specifically. After reading Bob's (long) letter of earnest concerns, President Monson did not mention Bob needing to repent. President Monson discussed Bob's great need to relax, not search for facts but search for peace in his heart so he would be calm in all things regarding spirituality.

OK...we couldn't make this stuff up if we tried. So now you are standing in for Pres. Monson in handing out those calls to repentence, eh? Why didn't you just say so?

Guys...I think we need to put Froggies nonvindictive and non judgmental Christianity into our taglines to help us remember who we are! Thank you, Froggie!

vindictive and judgmental mormon

(Are you going to explain to us evil Mormons why you need to live by double standards...?)

[Del March]

OK...next?

I'm self-righteous. I'm judgemental. I have no compassion for others. I am intellectually dishonest. I am lazy. I am proud.

That's all I can think about for now.

Next!

Del

[charity]

I'm next. I think meaner thoughts than Juliann does, I just don't say them out loud. I laugh when people slip on banana peels. Next?

[Teancum]

Since you tend to take offense when men are perceived as speaking for woman I would sugges that you have little idea of what pressures it is on a faithful LDS man to accpet a calling of leadership regardless of what is going on in his personal life. 

I'm not sure why you are making this a feminist issue. The first thing I did when my husband was ill was ask to be released from my calling. When I cared for my father I did it again...and I even stopped staying the entire 3 hr block because he couldn't.

You are correct that I have no concept of anyone who would let their family suffer to the point that they are still in bad shape years after.... because some bishop asked them to...and then whine about it later as if they had no responsibility in the decision they made whatsoever. I don't get that. There is no way you will ever be able to make me understand it. Sorry.

again you demonstrate how clueless you are as to the pressure, "game" etc of being an outstanding priesthood leader. Aspirations, holding out apparently succesful men that advance too high callings as so wonderfull righteous, etc. Just read the bio's of some of the new MPs when the church news publishes the calls.

And it is not a feminist issue. My point was that you are quick to complain about men and views of woman. As you are a woman and do not hold the priesthood you have no idea what kind of pressure cooker it is to be the leader priesthood holder and how it really influences ones life, choices, career moves, etc.

Teancun

[juliann]

urroner, here's another for your rule book:

It's considerate, even generous to point out what one believes is unhealthy patterns of thought in LDS, but just plain wrong for LDS to return the favour.

Oh, no, Cal...it is plain evil. Repent!

[juliann]

As you are a woman and do not hold the priesthood you have no idea what kind of pressure cooker it is to be the leader priesthood holder and how it really influences ones life, choices, career moves, etc. 

Oh, my. Need I say more.

[Teancum]

As you are a woman and do not hold the priesthood you have no idea what kind of pressure cooker it is to be the leader priesthood holder and how it really influences ones life, choices, career moves, etc.

[Calm]

All of you lying deceiving stupid Mormons line up....let's save them some time. Froggie needs to get back to being a good Molly Mormon instead of convincing us how evil we are. So 'fess up, everybody...it is the Christian thing to do.....

OK...next?

Hello. My name is Cal. I too am evil. I too am a liar. I spend all my time selfishly on the Internet rather than making casseroles and taking them around to neighbours. I don't even make casseroles for my own family. I am the scum of the earth.

[passes the baton to the next in line]

[juliann]

Okay...so far we have:

Juliann: I am arrogant. I am evil. I am a liar. I deceive people. I am heartless. I'm really really mean when someone attacks me. I mean really mean. I'm insensitive. I don't understand. I make fun of people's pain.

Del March: I'm self-righteous. I'm judgemental. I have no compassion for others. I am intellectually dishonest. I am lazy. I am proud.

Charity: I'm next. I think meaner thoughts than Juliann does, I just don't say them out loud. I laugh when people slip on banana peels.

Hello. My name is Cal. I too am evil. I too am a liar. I spend all my time selfishly on the Internet rather than making casseroles and taking them around to neighbours. I don't even make casseroles for my own family. I am the scum of the earth.

Does someone have an evening to compile DCP's flaws?

[Del March]

It is a wonder to me just how easy it is for things to go wrong in the Church when one abdicates personal responsibility in making choices. 

I agree.

I could believe quite easily from this coupled with all the other similar experiences I've seen that God is intent on rubbing our noses in the worthlessness of doing anything without dealing with him first and foremost.

Oh, but He HAS taught me that, definitely! Make no mistake: He has taught me that about MY efforts, I'm not pretending He's taught me that about anyone else's efforts. But He's been EXTREMELY clear as far as I am concerned: no amount of effort is worth as much as listening to what He wants from me. To give an idea: He'd much rather I do one step at His command, than 1000 steps of my own free will.

It was hard for me to understand that one, because I'd been raised with "men must do good work of their own". But God finally got it through to me that I had been abusing this scripture to satisfy my own pride and perfectionism, and that as a result I was losing the capacity to do any good (that's how I ended up crashing and burning: trying to do too many good things). So now He's re-training me to listen to His will first, and to add spontaneous good works only when I have done what He wants me to do first. And it's still not easy

Del

[juliann]

Now remember...they will not find our assistance useful if we do not confess our gullibility and utter brainlessless in believing in the BOM!

[Calm]

It was hard for me to understand that one, because I'd been raised with "men must do good work of their own".

My dad's favourite motto: "The Lord helps those who help themselves."

Unfortunately he didn't take the time to pass along the part where one is supposed to include the Lord at the beginning rather than the end of the project.

Luckily my mom did, though it took some time and a great deal of personal experience and humbling for me to mesh the doctrine together. Still working on the practice of course.

[juliann]

It was hard for me to understand that one, because I'd been raised with "men must do good work of their own". But God finally got it through to me that I had been abusing this scripture to satisfy my own pride and perfectionism, and that as a result I was losing the capacity to do any good (that's how I ended up crashing and burning: trying to do too many good things).

Del...you are a woman, dear. You can't possibly understand how hard it is for men in the church. Now go back to your casserole and leave the thinking to the priesthood.

[Dale]

I think one can be dissapointed in a church if they expect unrealistic things of church membership. I know LDS for whom being LDS is a blessing to their life. But they have problems like anyone else. If one expects being a member of a faith is going to magically solve all your problems, relieve stress, or give you instant answers to all your doubts & questions that's not going to happen.

I have read anti-Restoration materials for twenty years, and I still can't personally perfectly handle many issues they raise. But I did learn a trick that instead of giving into an issue you should work towards resolving it. To me a skeptic who has stopped working on solutions in favor of a favorite criticism has done nothing more than chosen a position.

There's a good book dealing with doubts & questions it's entitled If I Really Believe Why Do I Have These Doubts by Lynn Anderson. I reccomend it for persons that are struggling.

Things that help me in my life's struggle with doubts & questions. And things that help me with skeptocs.

No answer is going to force belief.

No amount of education is going to force you to believe.

Belief is a choice. You can't force belief on anyone.

You have to read faith promoting stuff. If you read skeptical stuff you have to have a balance of materials so you don't expose yourself to only the depressing stuff.

You have to sometimes live with debateable solutions.

Negative discussions where stuff is thrown at you in an attempt to overwhelm someone by a skeptic is an indication they are not open to belief.

Expecting perfections in a church leadership even ones that claim to be lead by the spirit all the time is not realistic because that's an overstated claim. Obviously if subjective feelings mistaken as inspiration could not be had nobody in the LDS, or my church could have been decieved by Mark Hoffman's forgeries.

[Del March]

again you demonstrate how clueless you are as to the pressure, "game" etc of being an outstanding priesthood leader.  Aspirations, holding out apparently succesful men that advance too high callings as so wonderfull righteous, etc.  Just read the bio's of some of the new MPs when the church news publishes the calls.

Do you REALLY think that you guys have the monopoly on this??

As you are a woman and do not hold the priesthood you have no idea what kind of pressure cooker it is to be the leader priesthood holder and how it really influences ones life, choices, career moves, etc. 

First of all, most of us have LDS husbands, fathers, brothers, whatever, so we DO know what kind of pressure they are under.

Second, as I said, do you really think you guys are the only ones living in a pressure cooker?? If you think so, then you are mightily oblivious of what's going on within the Relief Society. Competition and comparison are the staple of our meetings, unfortunately. And it DOES infiltrate all layers of our lives, including professional. This constant competition among the sisters is even THE one greatest obstacle to the well-functioning of the RS!

So please, don't try and teach us about the pressure cooker that is the Church. We know all about it.

Del

[Marvelous]

If anyone should know about the whithering, dripping venom thing, it's you, Juliann. Your ridicule of Bob's family tragedy was contemptible.

And his ridicule of millions of Mormons is...what? Do you not quite understand? I am satan incarnate. I am a stupid liar....how in the world does that rescue him from what he is?

Can you explain to us why you need to live by double standards?

One good turn deserves another? Don't you recall that Jesus indicated that his followers no longer needed to subscribe to the "eye for an eye" retribution philosophy? You could criticize his disrespect without resorting to it yourself.

Bob has condescended at times, which I don't condone. I think it has detracted from his otherwise persuasive case. I wish board visitors would focus more on the content of his posts, rather than their sometimes abrasive style.

[juliann]

Who spends more time on this internet board telling people they're all wrong about mormonism?

BTW...how many other boards do you post on, Froggie? Just curious about those double standards.

[juliann]

Bob has condescended at times, which I don't condone. I think it has detracted from his otherwise persuasive case. I wish board visitors could focus more on the content of his posts, rather than their sometimes abrasive style.

As you are listening to the content of our posts rather than our abrasive style?

Are you going to tell us why you need to live by double standards if your message is so persuasive?

[Calm]

I think one can be dissapointed in a church if they expect unrealistic things of church membership.

People forget the wheat and tares parable. We have all kinds in the Church, not a generally bad idea in my mind. People are not all at the same level in either the community or in their individual progress. Variation in membership gives me greater options in seeking the support appropriate for me or my family or friends at whatever level we are at for that particular need.

And equally important, no matter how 'low' our level is in most areas, there are always some areas where we can be the givers instead of the takers.

[Del March]

Unfortunately he didn't take the time to pass along the part where one is supposed to include the Lord at the beginning rather than the end of the project.

Yeah, I know that one! "Lord, please help me finish that project! I have been working so hard on it! Why are you letting problems interfere with the completion of it? It is a good project. Please help!"

Except that I forgot to ask God His advice on my project before I started it !

Sometimes, God would make me stop and translate my projects into hours. Almost invariably, it turned out that I just didn't have enough time in the week to work on them all. But even then, instead of accepting to drop some of them, I would simply ask God to do a miracle, maybe make me work more efficiently or something, so I could finish them all !

I was sooooo stubborn, that it took an absolute crash, both physically and emotionally, for me to accept to listen to ALL God had to teach me about project-making and service. I am still paying the price for it. Which is the reason I'm not making casseroles.

Del

[charity]

Dale, your previous post is one of the most reasonable, well thought out, meaty posts I have seen on the board. Thanks.