How To Keep Your Mormon Testimony

[Calm]

Belief is a choice. You can't force belief on anyone.

It is interesting to me how many state that belief (in most cases they are talking about disbelief) is not a choice.

I don't understand the appeal of abdicating personal responsibility for who one is.

[urroner]

I bet I don't have to tell Bob to repent. I bet, given his level of introspection, that he is duly aware of his imperfections and shortcomings. I sat across the desk from President Monson in 2003 discussing Bob McCue specifically. After reading Bob's (long) letter of earnest concerns, President Monson did not mention Bob needing to repent. President Monson discussed Bob's great need to relax, not search for facts but search for peace in his heart so he would be calm in all things regarding spirituality.

That's the message Bob needs. Not this board. I hope he does find measure of peace, but he is certainly not going to find it here in this place where some of the most vindictive and judgmental mormons I have ever encountered reside. Not all, but a choice few. They are not here to bring a spirit of good. They thrive on contention under the guise of religious discussion.

Bob, Bob. The best thing I ever did was to start studying eastern philosophies. I virtually retrained my mind from the extremes of the natural man being carnal and evil and bad and needing to be "corrected" by religion to one that said man is good, a piece of clay wanting to be moulded in gentle ways. I recommend you do the same and redirect your energies and efforts to a perception that is less harsh and more pliable. Fighting, struggling brings no peace. And no sense of satisfaction at the end of the day. Particularly on this board. Nor, might I add, the RfM board. They are two identical boards on opposite ends of the mormon spectrum.

Best wishes, Bob.

Big green hugs,

Froggie

So Froggie, you seem to have judged us and found us wanting, but you refuse to judge Bob and simply say that he needs to find peace. Very Christian of you to do so.

To tell you the truth, I find very little animosity on this board compared to many others that I have visited. The overwhelming majority of the posters on this board are good, honest people. Yep, there are some nasty Mormon types here, but they tend to not last very long and usually soon disappear. But then again, there are some very vindictive and judgemental Protestants, Catholics, Agnostics, and Atheists on this board also, but they usually tend to disappear eventually also.

Well, as far as Bob recognizing his problems, I really don't know. He might recognize that he has a problem, but either he seems to demonstrate the current inablility to recognize what the problem truly is because in most cases what the true problem is recognize, the solution is also known though it might not be an easy solution OR he knows what the problem is and just plain doesn't give a damn to do anything about it because of pride or laziness.

If he thinks that he needs to find peace and to do so demands that he attacks other people's faith, then it's going to be a long time before he finds peace, maybe in the next life.

I have an ex who lives far away from here. When she left me, she took our three sons and hurried home to her mother and father. Later she wrote me a three or four page letter that started out saying in the first paragraph how happy she and the boys are and then for the rest of the letter she was bitter and angry. I was a terrible father to the boys since I wasn't sending enough money, I was a terrible husband because I wasn't sending enough money, the boys were having terrible problems in school and just how miserable her life was because of me.

She blamed all of her problems and the problems of the boys on me and I only lived 14,000 miles away. This went on for about a year and then one day she called me up and told me to come get the boys and then she laid into me about how I was causing all her problems because I refused to discipline the boys and I wasn't sending enough money. EVerything was my fault, none of it was hers. Now it's fifteen years later and she still is angry at me because I'm not doing what she wants me to do.

You see Froggie, she is expecting other people to make her happy and she expects other people to change for her because it would be easier on her that way. Bob, as I perceive, falls squarely into that camp also. If he makes a mistake, it's not his fault, it's the Church's fault and in order for him to be happy, the Church has to change and he is going to bellyache about it until it changes.

But Froggie, you seem to be very forgiving of Bob, but why aren't you so forgiving of the rest of us evil, pondscum Merman types?

[Pokatator]

Okay...so far we have:

Juliann: I am arrogant. I am evil. I am a liar. I deceive people. I am heartless. I'm really really mean when someone attacks me. I mean really mean. I'm insensitive. I don't understand. I make fun of people's pain.

Del March: I'm self-righteous. I'm judgemental. I have no compassion for others. I am intellectually dishonest. I am lazy. I am proud.

Charity: I'm next. I think meaner thoughts than Juliann does, I just don't say them out loud. I laugh when people slip on banana peels.

Hello. My name is Cal. I too am evil. I too am a liar. I spend all my time selfishly on the Internet rather than making casseroles and taking them around to neighbours. I don't even make casseroles for my own family. I am the scum of the earth.

Does someone have an evening to compile DCP's flaws?

Does anyone here remember what this thread is about? Does the title of the thread "Replying to How To Keep Your Mormon Testimony" remind anyone?

This has been the most pathetic line posting for a given subject I have ever read here.

And with that said, old #6, the published one, can now call me a fundamentalist or some other name, or keep harping about double standards, etc. what ever her label of the day is.

That will really help show me and everyone else how to keep their testimony, won't it!!

[juliann]

Belief is a choice. You can't force belief on anyone.

It is interesting to me how many state that belief (in most cases they are talking about disbelief) is not a choice.

I don't understand the appeal of abdicating personal responsibility for who one is.

It always comes down to that with the countermos....the Mormons arguing that life is a series of choices and the countermos arguing that they were helpless dupes. We aren't going to get past that gulf in worldview. No amount of pounding me with tales of "anger" and "pain" are going to make me think that I am helpless unless I am tied up in a corner with a gun to my head. Ever. I can almost understand why they are so beside themselves if they think of life in these terms. It doesn't get much more hopeless. I just got scammed by a contractor who was supposed to be building a handicapped suite for my dad. I have put off retirement to recover financially. I can moan and groan and go to contractor websites and berate them and their profession and howl to the moon about how much money I lost. But why would I do that? I would lose the respect of those contractors and I still need them. Everyone else would start running from me. My life would be nothing but snapshots of my damaged home. Until someone can explain to me why anyone would do that to themselves count me out of the "poor you" club.

[juliann]

That will really help show me and everyone else how to keep their testimony, won't it!!

Pokator, get a clue. I have no power to "show you how to keep your testimony". You have no power to destroy mine. But here you are and there I am not. Has that quite sunk in yet?

Are you going to explain to us why you need to live by double standards?

[Marvelous]

Bob has condescended at times, which I don't condone. I think it has detracted from his otherwise persuasive case. I wish board visitors could focus more on the content of his posts, rather than their sometimes abrasive style.

As you are listening to the content of our posts rather than our abrasive style?

Are you going to tell us why you need to live by double standards if your message is so persuasive?

Why must you take everything personally, Juliann?

Although it is sometimes difficult, I try to focus on the content of your posts. Your comment about Bob's personal tragedy was so callous that I felt compelled to address it. You should be ashamed to have made it, but I saw no apology.

You seem very defensive about your beliefs. Although, occasionally, Bob has referred to believers sarcastically, he hasn't singled you out. Yet, you seem to have taken his remarks personally, and you lashed out at him. I have seen you do this to others, as well.

The point of Bob's story is that he exercised faith in the Church and its leadership. This aggravated an already difficult situation. He could have refused the calling, but he felt that doing so would have demonstrated a lack of faith. He understandably is bitter with the LDS ideology that led to this result, not with the humans who promulgated it. (Apologists, excepted, I believe.)

[Dale]

Dale, your previous post is one of the most reasonable, well thought out, meaty posts I have seen on the board.  Thanks.

Charity I try & pass along things that are helpful. David O. Mckay had chastized some of us RLDS who were dealing with their differences with the LDS by overly attacking Brigham Young. I hope I did not imagine the story. I read the story years ago I forget the source. But he said something wise "If you wish to use a hammer use it in building a house of your own." A lot of dialogue would be more useful if we used the word to build up instead of tearing down others faith, or even skepticism.

Certain skeptics views are so diametically opposed to yours it's pointles to try & convince them you are right & they are wrong. The same could be said of some believers. The critics just seem to throw more at you.

[Daniel Peterson]

again you demonstrate how clueless you are as to the pressure, "game" etc of being an outstanding priesthood leader.  Aspirations, holding out apparently succesful men that advance too high callings as so wonderfull righteous, etc.  Just read the bio's of some of the new MPs when the church news publishes the calls.

And it is not a feminist issue.  My point was that you are quick to complain about men and views of woman.  As you are a woman and do not hold the priesthood you have no idea what kind of pressure cooker it is to be the leader priesthood holder and how it really influences ones life, choices, career moves, etc. 

I just want to say, for the public record, that I'm completely clueless in this regard, too.

I don't understand the negativity on this point. I genuinely don't.

For all the flaws of its members, I love the Church, and have found that service in the priesthood has made a far better person of me than I would have been, if I had been left to my own devices. But then, of course, I'm dishonest and quite possibly insane.

(To be fair, a sizeable chorus of my internet friends would happily join in at this point to point out that I'm not a very good person at all, and, in fact, arguably a very bad one. I don't dispute this, but observe that I might have turned out a great deal worse.)

[juliann]

Why must you take everything personally, Juliann?

Because when my name and the organization's name that I founded is used it is personal? May I offer a polite..DUH?

Bob has referred to believers sarcastically, he hasn't singled you out.

Um, actually he has. But that isn't the point. Trying to pretend his ugly attacks are invisible isn't going to change the fact that he makes ugly attacks. It only makes you look a little blind.

Let's review what you find so appealing, should we? Then can you explain to us why you need to live by double standards?

I wish I could do a Top Ten list but there is way too much.

Ideology based institutions like Mormonism are social organisms, much like animals, plants and other life forms. They need food and other energy sources and seek these; and they defend themselves against threats. Ideas form the foundation of these social organisms. These ideas must continue to be accepted as valid, believable etc. if the organism is to survive. Hence, when the organism is confronted by evidence or other ideas that question the validity of its foundational ideas, this is a threat as real as a skunk seeing a coyote creeping through the weeds. The organism should be expected to use whatever powers it has to deal with what threatens. In the skunk

[Dale]

To me the tragedy of a persons story is not that they were LDS and had problems, but that when after leaving LDS they become a negative spokesperson for what they believe.

[Marvelous]

Why must you take everything personally, Juliann?

Because when my name and the organization's name that I founded is used it is personal? May I offer a polite..DUH?

So as not to expose more innocents to Bob's droppings, I edited your response.

I understand why Daniel would take what Bob said personally, as he is mentioned by name. I don't understand why you would.

With regard to your third reference to a double standard, as Clark Gable said in It Happened One Night, "ya got me!" To what are you referring? Have I been condescending to you? If so, I am unaware of it. If so, I apologize.

Are you referring to my patience with Bob and my impatience with you? I spoke up when you made a despicable comment about his family's tragedy. Had you hurled eptithets at him, I probably wouldn't have objected. It seems to be common practice on these boards.

[Calm]

Juliann is mentioned by name as well.

If someone said all Jews are moneygrubbers and I was a Jew, would you expect me not to take it personally?

How can one not take the condemnation of the individuals of a group that one belongs to 'personally'?

--

add-on: I have quickly searched through Juliann's posts and cannot find any comment about his family's tragedy that qualifies for "despicable" by any stretch. There are some comments about his own reaction to the tragedy, but that is significantly different and is relevant because he himself has brought his own reactions into the discussions.

Perhaps I missed it though.

[Noggin]

I know that I am taking a quote from the beginnings of this thread but I wanted to just address something:

When I began to doubt Joseph's claims, I appealed to my family and leaders.

[Jan]

Froggie,

I was disappointed when I read your post. I found the stereotypes and generalizations you made unfounded. I wonder, how on earth could you know that about us Mormons on the internet?

I would like your recipe for chicken/stuffing casserole though, especially if it is anything like what Chuck-o-Rama has. I only get it about twice a year when I get to Utah.

OK, my turn: I am a poor, dumb, deluded, and deceived Mormon convert worthy of pity and condemnation. I am selfish and hate charitable service, donated money and goods to people suffering in the world, and giving service to others. (I guess my 2 weeks on my own dime in a Lousianna Special Needs Shelter after Katrina and Rita doesn't count for anything? Please tell me that I get some type of Brownie points for it, pretty please?)

I converted from 4 decades of agnsoticism to LDS at about the same Bob McCue converted from Mormonism to agnosticism. But I guess my conversion and testimony aren't real because Bob has figured it all out for me. I guess my story doesn't count for anything. It must be wrong.

Proudly admitting defeat (to avoid all humility),

Jan

[juliann]

add-on: I have quickly searched through Juliann's posts and cannot find any comment about his family's tragedy that qualifies for "despicable" by any stretch. There are some comments about his own reaction to the tragedy, but that is significantly different and is relevant because he himself has brought his own reactions into the discussions.

It is only "personal" if it is about them. Bob has made every single thread about himself...not a smart start if you don't want others to talk about you. But talking about Bob's reaction to his family problems (that he eagerly displays to complete strangers) is "despicable".

I am still waiting for them to explain why they need to live by double standards.

[juliann]

Noggin, I'll take the real discussion to our other thread.

[juliann]

For all the flaws of its members, I love the Church, and have found that service in the priesthood has made a far better person of me than I would have been, if I had been left to my own devices. But then, of course, I'm dishonest and quite possibly insane.

I think your dishonest and insanity have been established. Bob and his followers have spoken!

[Ray Agostini]

So when I recovered from the rage, circa.1990, I finally realised it was not the church, or God, but my personal choices.  No one beat you over the head to be a bishop, or even to stay in the church.  Accept responsibility for your choices, and your actions, and be a man and graciously move on without rancour.  Your bitterness shows.  When you rise above that, as Rudyard Kipling suggested, taking victory and defeat in life for the imposters they are, you will be a better person, and a more lucid writer without cankering biases.

Whatever you may think of Jesus, he had the right formula, and it is found in his teachings on behaviour and attitudes.  Even the dictatorial Napoleon recognised that.

So Ray,

How long did you take to recocer from the "rage" and can you give other time and space to do the same?

Teancum

Bob can have all of the space and time he wants. I'm merely pointing out that, having been through that, and fully understanding the feelings and emotions, they are negative and unproductive. I feel my advice to him was timely because he might realise that while you "rage" you can't think clearly. And he proves that he's not thinking clearly by the comparisons and suggestions he's making. Some who leave the church turn to calling it a "cult", and a "brainwashing organisation", which is poppycock. I never at any time felt brainwashed, or even coerced, and I accepted responsibility for my own choices. The information that I "stumbled over" was available when I joined the church. At the time the church met my needs, so I didn't feel any need to go beyond what I then had. I was fairly happy until the early '80s and never really started questioning until I was in the church about seven or eight years. By that time I was also suffering burnout, from working, being a busy bishop (like Bob), and raising a family. It was that hectic lifestyle, and beginning to feel curbed in that lifestyle, that also contributed to my eventually leaving. This is something that many exmos won't admit, their own culpability, their own personal weariness with the church, and when they leave they entirely blame the church and it's doctrines and teachings. They turn on the church as if it drafted them, brainwashed them, beat them to stay, and then call it "the cult". This is disingenuous, to say the least. So they become the classic "victim" of a "fraud" and then feel it their life's mission to warn others.

Incidentally, for the record, I have never, even in my darkest moments, felt that the church was a cult, nor have I ever advocated calling it a cult. Even when I posted on RFM four years ago I didn't refer to it as a cult, and I left RFM because of the bitterness and irrational ill-will there, not to mention some very extremist views. This, that the church is not a cult, is in agreement with all of the social scientists who have studied Mormonism, except some exmo social scientists who are still harbouring "ill-feelings" (Bob's words) to the organisation. This is what I am saying is unproductive, negative, and not in accordance with the realities. This is what I mean by distortion and misguided views.

Bob is clearly not interested in dialogue. If he's learning anything here, he's not letting on, but I suspect not. It goes back to the old saying, "don't blame your wife's judgement, look who she married". Whether you turn on an ex-wife, or the church, irrationalism and misguided blame can easily set in, you never see your faults, only the faults of the partner or the church, as the case may be. Bob may be in early days, but for me the sad thing is that he's a farily rational person who has far more talent than he's displaying here, and I believe this is the result of his "foggy" views brought on by his bitterness to the church, which he has expressed. My only motive in posting what I did was to try to help him realise that as long as he's in that frame of mind he will perform below par.

To be fair to Bob, some of the bickering here has not helped him, but he's bringing this on by the way he's doing his threads and the comments he's making, and more particularly the way he dismisses replies. So once again he's been made out to be the victim of "those idiots on FAIR". He's doing "drive by" threads and not even taking the time to first anaylse the replies on the threads he starts, but will rush to start anither one. What does that tell you?

And for your further information, I too know what it's like to be "victimised", and have not had a dream run here. I have been both praised, and battered, but I try to dialogue while looking at my own faults or possible misunderstandings of Mormonism, which is one of the main reasons I come here too. If I have a distorted view of something, I find out pretty quickly, let me tell you. And I deliberately do posts on controversial subjects so I can get feedback to gauge whether my views really need reassessing. If I get reactive or negative feedback, and that has often happened, I sincerely try to understand why, and whether the problem is mine, or theirs. I go through the reactive posts and scratch my head, not in anger, but wondering if I have missed something. Because of that I have learnt a lot, and that is why I remain posting here. Bob says he wants to learn, but he's not showing much sign of progress.

[Jan]

I guess I should address the topic of this thread so I don't offer more noise than signal in this thread.

"How To Keep Your Mormon Testimony?"

Quite simply, I rely on the personal spiritual I received (as knowledge or 'pure intelligence' - not a feeling) witness that Christ lives and knows me personally and that our unique docrine in the plan of salvation is true.

I cannot deny what "pure intelligence" I received. In a sense, I am left with no other choice than to embrace that knowledge and its implications for me in being a believing, faithful, and active LDS rather than an agnostic (that I had been for the 3 decades of my entire adult life).

I can't deny what happened to me. I can chose to act on it or not. I chose to act on it. I don't see that ever changing (possibly) short of the living prophet declaring it's all been a hoax.

[William the Conqueror]

In great abundance.

[juliann]

Update to save Bob and his followers some bandwidth:

Juliann: I am arrogant. I am evil. I am a liar. I deceive people. I am heartless. I'm really really mean when someone attacks me. I mean really mean. I'm insensitive. I don't understand. I make fun of people's pain.

Del March: I'm self-righteous. I'm judgemental. I have no compassion for others. I am intellectually dishonest. I am lazy. I am proud.

Charity:  I think meaner thoughts than Juliann does, I just don't say them out loud. I laugh when people slip on banana peels.

Calmoriah:  I too am evil. I too am a liar. I spend all my time selfishly on the Internet rather than making casseroles and taking them around to neighbours. I don't even make casseroles for my own family. I am the scum of the earth.

Urroner:  I am evil pondscum.

DCP:  I'm dishonest and quite possibly insane.

Jan:  I am a poor, dumb, deluded, and deceived Mormon convert worthy of pity and condemnation. I am selfish and hate charitable service, donated money and goods to people suffering in the world, and giving service to others. (I guess my 2 weeks on my own dime in a Lousianna Special Needs Shelter after Katrina and Rita doesn't count for anything? Please tell me that I get some type of Brownie points for it, pretty please?) 

Jan, stop whining. Being Mormon wipes out any good you could ever do in your entire life.

[juliann]

Elder Nelson (speaking as I type)

"Your foremost Priesthood duty is to your family"

[Fatboy]

I know of a man who could be heading on his way out. He had served in many positions in the church. He taught seminary. He taught church history. He has served as a bishop, and yet I saw this man broken into tears as he watched his next postion slip from his hands and go to another. That is Stake president. We came late and was in the overflow room where he was at. As they called the other persons name he broke down in tears. Those there thought that he was just happy that a good man was called into that position. But I knew his heart. I had seen him work hard in every calling he has ever had. And like others who have left the church, love to hear themselves talk and speak the wisdom and knowledge they have acquired. This person is a very intelligent man, very well educated. Yet he was crying because he believed that God had called him to be the Stake President. His wife was so embarrassed. Only she knew of his aspirations of being called to a higher position. When I came upon Bob's website, I could just see Bob in the same position. Especially as I read and read what he wrote. So much writting and little said. I think that it was not burn out, but disappointment in learning that one has to be humble for the Lord to get a calling. There is no doubt that Bob could do any job in the church well. But when you lose sight of who is doing the calling and are puffed up in the pride of your heart, disappointment is going to be the result. The only other time I remember this happening was on my mission. I was in an area which had a branch. There was one man who was organized and spot on the job for anything he was asked. The branch president moved and so another was to be called. Everyone thought it was going to be this man. He had been born and raised in the church. But he was not called. Instead a convert of about five years was called. Good man, but not very organized, and to top it off, he called this other man as a councilor. He left the church for a time. How come he came back is a another great story. But some never do come back.

As I try to read Bob's essays, I just shake my head. It does suprise me that most who plod through and end up praising what he has written are ex mormons. I mean if a active LDS person wrote in the positive about the church as Bob writes in the negative, and wrote so much and not say anything, I would tell them the same thing. Wasted words

As you can see I am not well read or highly educated. But I know people, and the Lord has given me the power of discernment.

[Fatboy]

Elder Nelson (speaking as I type)

"Your foremost Priesthood duty is to your family"

Is there any doubt he is an apostle of God?

[Jan]

The interesting part of having "living prohpets and apostles" lead our Church is that we are to listen to the themes of what they are telling (and admonishing) us at the current time. It has more weight than that of dead prophets. (Robert Millet has a great talk/paper on this as it pertains to the question: "What is Mormon doctrine?")

Elder Nelson's talk that he just finished at General Conference has some great advice and counsel for us that we are discussing in this thread.

We are responsible for our choices in life.

The greatest Priesthood duty is to one's family (i.e., not to "The Church" or callings).