How To Keep Your Mormon Testimony

[juliann]

Since you tend to take offense when men are perceived as speaking for woman I would sugges that you have little idea of what pressures it is on a faithful LDS man to accpet a calling of leadership regardless of what is going on in his personal life.

I'm not sure why you are making this a feminist issue. The first thing I did when my husband was ill was ask to be released from my calling. When I cared for my father I did it again...and I even stopped staying the entire 3 hr block because he couldn't.

You are correct that I have no concept of anyone who would let their family suffer to the point that they are still in bad shape years after.... because some bishop asked them to...and then whine about it later as if they had no responsibility in the decision they made whatsoever. I don't get that. There is no way you will ever be able to make me understand it. Sorry.

[Calm]

for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

It means that

1) I'd better make sure I know that the commandment is from the Lord

2) I'd better make sure that I know what that commandment really is

3) If there are multiple 'good' options, then it is a good idea to find out if the Lord has a preference

Once I've done my part in this, then I can trust that the Lord will do his.

While priesthood leaders may be inspired, I may have access to revelation they do not have.

[juliann]

And there is thing called

[Dale]

So I may not be deliberately dishonest.  I may be insane.

Bwahahahaha!

I'm going to have to go start reading the commentary. It is better than anything they put up here. I take it they are mad because FAIR won't allow them to come and dump whatever they want on our board, eh...ironic since we can't post on their board at all. Well...unless we adulate and agree with them, of course.

The internets a crazy place. I stopped worrying about such commentary long ago. You can't get them to stop it by anything you say. I like being on boards with rules that try & encourage dignified discussions about issues where everybody who behave can participate. My big complaint about such places is they isolate you from contrary opinions by prohibiting alternative views.

I wish they could just discuss Daniel Petersons issues.

[juliann]

We could set up an entire message board dedicated to "guess what this Mormon bishop did to me. wwwaaaaahhhh!" What you will find, Bob, is that the faithful Mormons can all pull a story out of their hat that would make your hair stand on edge. That is because there is not a church leader on this earth who will get it right every second of every day. And it is well know what bureacracy adds to the mix. Life tends to be a series of upsets and disappointments...the victory is in walking through them not in striking out in rage.

So what "damage" did you do to some hapless member of your ward, Bob? Or did you think you were the only bishop who ever walked on water?

[Richard Lyons]

]Especially if someone

[Tchild2]

Juliann wrote:

We could set up an entire message board dedicated to "guess what this Mormon bishop did to me. wwwaaaaahhhh!"

Quote from Elder Boyd K Packer to my wife who declined his offer to pray in church (we were in his home ward). "We do not say no to our Elders".

Hmmm... Bob, maybe if the Elders in your Mormon experience just had more "Priesthood power" instead of the lesser Bishop priesthood powers, you would be assured that the calling was of God.

Anybody have doubts on an LDS calling, just buzz Juliann here on the boards, she has a sure fire method to "know".

[Tchild2]

Calmoriah wrote:

1) I'd better make sure I know that the commandment is from the Lord

Is yours an objective way to determine which are commandments from the Lord and which aren't, or are they special abilities you subjectively possess?

2) I'd better make sure that I know what that commandment really is

3) If there are multiple 'good' options, then it is a good idea to find out if the Lord has a preference

AND:

Once I've done my part in this, then I can trust that the Lord will do his.

Some members lack the perfect knowledge of your 1-3 list and simply "trust that the Lord will do his" as per the scriptures stating such.

While priesthood leaders may be inspired, I may have access to revelation they do not have.

What a perfectly ordered way to conduct a religion; as long as one agrees it is revelation. Disagree with a church leader with your own "personal "revelation, and you have another answer. BTW, weren't there early church leaders who "disagreed" via their own personal revelation(s) on issues and were excommunicated by Joseph Smith?

Sorry Calmoriah, your's (the religious priesthood hieararchial method within Mormonism) is a system of chaos, disorder and disjointed thinking.

[Froggie]

One thing I have learned for sure from posting on the internet regarding mormonism. Those so-called believers and apologists do not AT ALL take their religion as seriously as those who did, and then were disillusioned because the church promises/rewards were not forthcoming.

A believer can find many faults in Bob. But they most certainly look like hypocrites if they blame him for assuming stewardship/responsibility in his priesthood callings in the church and then have no empathy when he is burnt out. And when he does get burnt out they insist he is doing it all wrong. Meanwhile, they are the spectators sitting inside the covered wagon, yelling at those pulling the wagon telling them to "put their shoulder to the wheel" while they do nothing. They get no respect from me.

And I am again left wondering how many internet believers are actually active, participating, living mormons or whether this group of online believers are those who sit on their butts and do nothing but post on internet boards about how good and active and participating they are whilst the real mormon workers are going about doing the work. And how all these hard-working people have "gotten it wrong" by adhering to the church doctrines.......like believing their leaders are called of God, or that God answers prayers, or that hard work reaps a benefit, or that faith will grow from a mustard seed into a tree rather than a jumbled mass of tangled roots.

Anyone who has spent their life in dedicated service to a cause (not just belief, service) gets respect from me. Whether they leave that cause or stay with the cause or whatever. Work is and will always be a discipline I respect. My own bishop confesses the church has a tendency to find the workhorses and then run them into the ground.

So as a former, very active member who spent at least 20 hours a week for 15 years planning activities for your youth, children, wives, wards, choirs, classes leadership meetings, etc and praying and working for those for whom I had stewardship, I am turned off TURNED OFF by those who cavalierly criticize and rebuke and dismiss and degrade all this work, all from their cheap seats. Don't you dare tell Bob he did it all wrong when you don't have the gonads or the discipline to get anywhere near the level of devotion or service he gave to the church. Get your fat butts off your computer chair, and go do what your church asks of you in terms of activity. It's not easy. It's time consuming, and heart consuming, and mind consuming. In my mind, you are not fit to engage in dialogue with Bob until you have held similar positions of responsibility and understand the weight/burden of the yoke he has carried on his shoulders.

When you are on a similar plane, you won't judge him harsly. If you are judging him harshly, go repent. And again. Get your fat butts off your computer chair and bake a chicken/stuffing casserole for your neighbor who is sick. Part if living the mormon religion is refraining from telling everyone else that their version of their mormon religion is wrong.

Froggie

[juliann]

Not that it really matters Juliann, but Bob was poking fun at the apparent sexism of 1st Nephi 17:2, not agreeing with it.

Here's the thing...I know Bob thinks he is being real clever like when he does the withering dripping venom thing...but when people do that a lot...it says a lot about them. I'm not buying that Bob does not think these things on some level himself. McDiss and all....anybody can be a drive through psychologist now. Including me.

[juliann]

Anybody have doubts on an LDS calling, just buzz Juliann here on the boards, she has a sure fire method to "know".

Isn't it fascinating that the only people on earth who have a valid experience and viewpoint are the angry countermos? I'd really be interested in knowing why bob's experiences and opinions are any more valid than mine.

[juliann]

When you are on a similar plane, you won't judge him harsly. If you are judging him harshly, go repent. And again. Get your fat butts off your computer chair and bake a chicken/stuffing casserole for your neighbor who is sick. Part if living the mormon religion is refraining from telling everyone else that their version of their mormon religion is wrong.

It doesn't get much better than this. I really don't mean to make light of your obvious earnestness or your "pain". I really don't....but you need to take a long walk and reflect on your glaring double standards and why you need them.

[urroner]

When you are on a similar plane, you won't judge him harsly. If you are judging him harshly, go repent. And again. Get your fat butts off your computer chair and bake a chicken/stuffing casserole for your neighbor who is sick. Part if living the mormon religion is refraining from telling everyone else that their version of their mormon religion is wrong.

Maybe Froggie, just maybe there are some of us who have been on a similar plane, or maybe even a plane much harsher then he's ever been on and then here he is judging us. So Froggie, in lieu of just directing your " go repent" comment to us who don't hold him in very high regard, why don't you tell him to go repent also.

[urroner]

Anybody have doubts on an LDS calling, just buzz Juliann here on the boards, she has a sure fire method to "know".

Isn't it fascinating that the only people on earth who have a valid experience and viewpoint are the angry countermos? I'd really be interested in knowing why bob's experiences and opinions are any more valid than mine.

It's because he was smart and wise enough to leave the Church, where you are just a silly, stupid woman who can break the yoke of slavery that the Church and the priesthood bearer have slapped around your neck.

Like I said earlier, they demand that you be tolerant of their worldview, but they are totally intolerant of your worldview.

[Calm]

Some members lack the perfect knowledge of your 1-3 list and simply "trust that the Lord will do his" as per the scriptures stating such.

And they will receive all the blessing they deserve for their faithfulness, but the scriptures teach also about serving God with all our mind as well as our heart and strength.

I never claimed perfect knowledge, I just know myself well enough that I'm not going to give all my mind, heart and strength to something I don't believe is from God so one way or the other, I'd better find out for myself.

BTW, what I posted was a response to a request about that particular scripture. It doesn't mean that I believe that I personally get it right every time in either method or answer, it just means this is the way I believe one should go about learning the Will of God.

Nephi, the person you point to as an example, did this...went and sought personal revelation for understanding God's Will before moving on to the doing. It was Laman and Lemuel who chose to rely on men to find the answers for them rather than God. They didn't find the strength to endure to the end with this method. Most people won't, I suspect.

Add-on: Chaos just might optimize free will.

God may be a God of order, but there is nothing that says men are to that stage yet.

[Marvelous]

Not that it really matters Juliann, but Bob was poking fun at the apparent sexism of 1st Nephi 17:2, not agreeing with it.

Here's the thing...I know Bob thinks he is being real clever like when he does the withering dripping venom thing...but when people do that a lot...it says a lot about them. I'm not buying that Bob does not think these things on some level himself. McDiss and all....anybody can be a drive through psychologist now. Including me.

If anyone should know about the whithering, dripping venom thing, it's you, Juliann. Your ridicule of Bob's family tragedy was contemptible. (Juliann: " This cracks me up...do you have a McDiss bumper sticker? The cognitive dissonance you experience now must be overwhelming if you allowed yourself to be told what to do when your wife was ill.")

Your approach to LDS leadership and counsel is enlightened, certainly, but hardly encouraged by those in charge. Latter-Day Saints are taught that leaders are inspired by God and that they should exercise faith in following their counsel and direction. That is what Bob did. The Lord went so far as to reassure the Saints that they could exercise blind faith in following his prophets because he would remove them before allowing them to lead the sheep astray.

[Froggie]

When you are on a similar plane, you won't judge him harsly. If you are judging him harshly, go repent.  And again.  Get your fat butts off your computer chair and bake a chicken/stuffing casserole for your neighbor who is sick.  Part if living the mormon religion is refraining from telling everyone else that their version of their mormon religion is wrong.

It doesn't get much better than this. I really don't mean to make light of your obvious earnestness or your "pain". I really don't....but you need to take a long walk and reflect on your glaring double standards and why you need them.

Yes, lets.

juliann

Legend Journeyman

Group: Admin

Posts: 6,693

Member No.: 6

Joined: 26-November 03

Froggie

Member

Group: Members

Posts: 291

Member No.: 2,021

Joined: 2-August 05

Numbers are pretty telling, aren't they? Who spends more time on this internet board telling people they're all wrong about mormonism?

This morning I got up and rototilled my garden, made a ladybug birthday cake for my 15 year old daughter. Then I took my 16 year old son and friend to go feed the ducks our leftover bread at the pond down the street, went to Home Depot and got 12 bags of steer manure for my garden, came home and made lunch (croissant sandwiches and chips) for my husband, four children and two friends who are helping us with the garden. I managed to get two load of laundry in, and field a phone call from my home teacher who set up a couples date for this upcoming Friday afternoon....we are going clay pigeon shooting (he got a new Colt 45 and thinks it may be nicer on the kick than my 357 magnum) and then we are doing dinner at Tepanyakis.

Tonite I am going speedwalking with my neighbor across the street who wants me to show her the best walking path to the canyon entrance.

My hip measurement is 39 inches.

I am surrounded by good mormons who are much much too busy with their lives to be sitting on a message board. Mormonism is a demanding religion and a demanding lifestyle.

Right now I just finished scanning some new family pics into the computer so I am off for the day. Saturdays are busy places around my house. I've still got to cut both son's hair because they are going to GC tomorrow with DH and I don't need them to look like hippies, and my extended family is coming over for chinese food tonite for my daughter's birthday. I still have orange and kung pau chicken to prepare.

Frog

[Daniel Peterson]

In case anybody's interested, "Deconstructor" has responded (on the oddly-named "Recovery" board) to my response (earlier on this thread) to his list of "things-the-angel-didn't-warn-Joseph-Smith-against" (originally, and mistakenly, ascribed to "Randy J."):

"I'm . . . left wondering why this TBM apologist is such a blatant liar. I can't believe it is out of ignorance."

To which, carrying on the rich tradition of vigorous debate and dissent that is so cherished a characteristic of the ironically-titled "Recovery" board, another poster answers:

"How does he get away with such dishonesty? How can he live with himself? I was repulsed."

However, lest anybody think that all of the "Recovering" folk attribute any and all failure to agree with them to simple dishonesty, here is a comment (made today in another context), from Tal Tales Bachman:

"I would like them [he's referring to Morgbot 'apologists' like me] to speak and publish as much as possible, because their stuff strikes everyone but totally gone Mormons as bloody daft. I don't know of any way to better illustrate to people that there is something profoundly screwed-up with Joseph's church than to show them Mormon apologetic writing. That's one big fat difference between me and them: They'd shut all of us up forever if they could, whereas I'd put Dan Peterson and Gee and the other dudes over there on TV as much as possible, especially with sharp interviewers. To most people, they sound like madmen."

So I may not be deliberately dishonest.  I may be insane.

Bwahahahaha!

Roaring in, now, with a spirited rejoinder and a markedly different viewpoint is SusieQ#1:

"It is amazing to see the blatant lying from supposedly believing Mormons. The level of integrity is in the toilet."

And then she recalls her own appallingly brutal treatment at the hands of, well, me:

My personal exchange with the slamming, and nasty, condescending, despicable attitudes has been extremely upsetting to long time TBMs in my own family.

Keep the liars talking, give them a little more rope and they will continue to hang themselves.

What a shame how embarrassing for the church and their families.

The incriminating evidence of my stunning and unprovoked viciousness can be found here:

http://www.shields-research.org/Critics/Su...eterson_a01.htm

I'd viciously attack Froggie, too, except I don't think she'd notice it. People who are always taking casseroles around never get on the internet. I did, though, really appreciate her harsh judgment of those she accuses of judging harshly. That would be really, really difficult to top.

[Calm]

Yes, lets.

So now we are having a "Who's the best Molly Mormon" contest?

I suspect Juliann was thinking more along the lines of you thinking to yourself rather than having a bragging contest.

[Dale]

I do not think blessing & rewards in any church is not without it's price. Sometimes you can feel burnt out. That's a totally seperate issue than the intellectual issues one used as reasons to leave a religion.

I was LDS, and became Community of Christ/RLDS in recent years. I had a bad LDS experience. I could have done better in some areas. But I have moved on. I do not claim I was a victim of the LDS. I don't feel they decieved me. The key areas they get criticized on they do propose what I consider to be valid solutions for.

I guess what I see is critics as being persistent in refusing answers I accept. To me they are just more picky anout the answers that they accept than I do. Anybody can debate, or try & present intellectual reasons why they refuse your answer. But I can read your position & if I don't accept your thinking I respect your point of view, and don't see a need to try & persistently convince you of your error.

I don't worry about Bob's faults. I have my own.

[juliann]

Numbers are pretty telling, aren't they? Who spends more time on this internet board telling people they're all wrong about mormonism?

Um, Froggie...not that this matters...but numbers are telling. Look at the member number. Mine is...6. Do you need that explained to you, too?

I am surrounded by good mormons who are much much too busy with their lives to be sitting on a message board.  Mormonism is a demanding religion and a demanding lifestyle. 

And yet here you are....telling all of those Mormons what to do and how to react when they are attacked day after day by you smart and enlightened people. Guess you won't be explaining to us why you need to live by double standards, eh?

[Calm]

I do not think blessing & rewards in any church is not without it's price.

Wouldn't really merit a reward otherwise, would it?

But I can read your position & if I don't accept your thinking I respect your point of view, and don't see a need to try & persistently convince you of your error.

I don't worry about Bob's faults. I have my own.

And that's why you get the respect you richly deserve, Dale.

[juliann]

If anyone should know about the whithering, dripping venom thing, it's you, Juliann. Your ridicule of Bob's family tragedy was contemptible.

And his ridicule of millions of Mormons is...what? Do you not quite understand? I am satan incarnate. I am a stupid liar....how in the world does that rescue him from what he is?

Can you explain to us why you need to live by double standards?

[Del March]

One thing I have learned for sure from posting on the internet regarding mormonism.  Those so-called believers and apologists do not AT ALL take their religion as seriously as those who did, and then were disillusioned because the church promises/rewards were not forthcoming.

Wrong. I take my religion very seriously. In fact, there is nothing I take as seriously as my relationship with God.

But they most certainly look like hypocrites if they blame him for assuming stewardship/responsibility in his priesthood callings in the church and then have no empathy when he is burnt out.

I have complete empathy for his burning out. But I have no empathy for the way he blames the Church for making him burn out. It was his choice to accept the calling, and it was his choice to not ask to be released early.

Meanwhile, they are the spectators sitting inside the covered wagon, yelling at those pulling the wagon telling them to "put their shoulder to the wheel" while they do nothing.

You would be ashamed to have said that, if you knew how much I have sacrificed through the years for my Church service, how much effort, energy, time and money I have consecrated to the Church. I have lived in very small units, where having multiple big callings is common. I have had Sundays when I spoke in all 3 meetings: I gave a talk in Sacrament meeting, and I taught both Sunday School and Relief Society. I have had times when I would spend 3 out of 4 Saturdays each month, the entire day, going to the Stake center and back to participate in whatever meeting. I have had times when between my job, his job, and our callings, my husband and I would barely see each other, whether during the week or on week-ends. And so on. So shut up about me not "putting my shoulder to the wheel".

And I am again left wondering how many internet believers are actually active, participating, living mormons or whether this group of online believers are those who sit on their butts and do nothing but post on internet boards about how good and active and participating they are whilst the real mormon workers are going about doing the work.

You are welcome to travel to Europe and question the members of my units past and present. They'll tell you that I've always been active and participating heavily.

And how all these hard-working people have "gotten it wrong" by adhering to the church doctrines.......like believing their leaders are called of God, or that God answers prayers, or that hard work reaps a benefit, or that faith will grow from a mustard seed into a tree rather than a jumbled mass of tangled roots.

They have gotten it wrong not for adhering to Church doctrines, but for adhering BLINDLY to Church doctrines. I got it wrong too, so I definitely know what I'm talking about.

Anyone who has spent their life in dedicated service to a cause (not just belief, service) gets respect from me. 

You should decide. Do you, or do you not, have any respect for me?

Whether they leave that cause or stay with the cause or whatever.  Work is and will always be a discipline I respect.  My own bishop confesses the church has a tendency to find the workhorses and then run them into the ground.

Which is precisely why it is OUR responsibility to determine whether we are going to accept the calls that are extended to us or not! That's a principle my husband learned the hard way: if you say yes to the fifth calling, they WILL propose a sixth one! (And no, I'm not kidding about the numbers...)

Don't you dare tell Bob he did it all wrong when you don't have the gonads or the discipline to get anywhere near the level of devotion or service he gave to the church.

And don't you dare tell us off when you have no idea of our level of devotion or service.

In my mind, you are not fit to engage in dialogue with Bob until you have held similar positions of responsibility and understand the weight/burden of the yoke he has carried on his shoulders.

What makes you believe we haven't carried just as much, in our own ways?

When you are on a similar plane, you won't judge him harsly. If you are judging him harshly, go repent.

It's precisely because I've been on a similar plane that I am not afraid to judge him. I made the same mistakes. But the difference is that, unlike him, I am not blaming the Church for my own mistakes.

Part if living the mormon religion is refraining from telling everyone else that their version of their mormon religion is wrong.

Absolutely false. Correcting mistakes when we see them is part of our duty. I have liberated quite a few women of their misconceptions about our religion, by sharing with them my own experiences and the consequences of my own mistakes. I consider it almost a life-saving duty to correct such dire misconceptions when I see them.

Del

[Calm]

urroner, here's another for your rule book:

It's considerate, even generous to point out what one believes is unhealthy patterns of thought in LDS, but just plain wrong for LDS to return the favour.