Sacrament Renews All Covenants? Anyone ever hear this?

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, the narrator said:

You completely missed the point. "Sacrament" is essentially synonymous with "ordinance" or "ritual." Baptism is a sacrament. Confirmation is a sacrament. Communion is a sacrament. The endowment is a sacrament. Sealings are sacrament. Etc. In the rest of Christianity (and in early Mormonism, I believe), the term is used to describe all of the key ordinances and rituals of Christianity. Early Mormons also used "Lord's supper" and "communion," but somewhere along the way they began using "the sacrament" exclusively for communion. I suspect it comes from a misunderstanding of D&C 20, which uses "the sacrament" as a simple reference to communion but then later began to be misread as the actual name of the ritual.

I didn't miss the point. You're just trying to belabor some point, and I'm not entire sure which one, to be honest.

I know it's synonymous with "ordinance" or "ritual". The Catholics call several things "sacraments," including baptism, the Eucharist, marriage, and so on. We just use the word to mean that one thing, what others call the Eurcharist. Are you going to argue that it's wrong? You want more precision or something? I thought you were denigrating things taken too precisely as "incantations." Shall we exchange pedantry over all this?

I was simply explaining where that came from. Like you asked in your little parenthetical. But it appears it was a rhetorical question, and you weren't interested in an answer. 

 

[webbles]

3 hours ago, the narrator said:

You completely missed the point. "Sacrament" is essentially synonymous with "ordinance" or "ritual." Baptism is a sacrament. Confirmation is a sacrament. Communion is a sacrament. The endowment is a sacrament. Sealings are sacrament. Etc. In the rest of Christianity (and in early Mormonism, I believe), the term is used to describe all of the key ordinances and rituals of Christianity. Early Mormons also used "Lord's supper" and "communion," but somewhere along the way they began using "the sacrament" exclusively for communion. I suspect it comes from a misunderstanding of D&C 20, which uses "the sacrament" as a simple reference to communion but then later began to be misread as the actual name of the ritual.

I bet it is influence from Rigdon and his group.  Campbellites used the term "ordinances" instead of "sacraments".  (https://www.bobcornwall.com/2017/12/the-disciples-of-christ-and-sacraments.html talk a bit about this).  Along with D&C 20 specifically using sacrament for the communion and Campbellites using ordinances for baptism and communion and then needing a word for what happens in the temple, it seems like a natural language evolution.

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, the narrator said:

If precise ritual acts and precise ritual language are required to sway God's will or the cosmos, that makes it an incantation. Argue with English, not with me.

English isn't arguing with me. You are. This isn't Army of Darkness with the final word of the incantation "Klaatu Barad Nikto" being pronounced incorrectly and then all hell breaks out.

 

[the narrator]

53 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I know it's synonymous with "ordinance" or "ritual". The Catholics call several things "sacraments," including baptism, the Eucharist, marriage, and so on. We just use the word to mean that one thing, what others call the Eurcharist. Are you going to argue that it's wrong? You want more precision or something? I thought you were denigrating things taken too precisely as "incantations." Shall we exchange pedantry over all this?

I was simply explaining where that came from. Like you asked in your little parenthetical. But it appears it was a rhetorical question, and you weren't interested in an answer. 

Yo, chill out. I was merely pointing out that I did not know when and precisely why Mormons began using "sacrament" exclusively for communion.

[the narrator]

36 minutes ago, webbles said:

I bet it is influence from Rigdon and his group.  Campbellites used the term "ordinances" instead of "sacraments".  (https://www.bobcornwall.com/2017/12/the-disciples-of-christ-and-sacraments.html talk a bit about this).  Along with D&C 20 specifically using sacrament for the communion and Campbellites using ordinances for baptism and communion and then needing a word for what happens in the temple, it seems like a natural language evolution.

That makes sense. Thanks.

[The Nehor]

On 10/1/2026 at 8:14 PM, Stargazer said:

The "incantation"? You're equating priesthood ordinances to magic rituals now? And who is this weird cosmic reality you speak of? 

 

If you can find a dividing line between religious ordinances and ritual magic you will probably be the first to do so.

I’ve read translations of a few medieval grimoires and they invoke God and/or angels to make the magic work and have precise steps that must be followed as part of the ritual to achieve the desired results. It was almost entirely Catholic clerics passing these spellbooks around too.

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If you can find a dividing line between religious ordinances and ritual magic you will probably be the first to do so.

I’ve read translations of a few medieval grimoires and they invoke God and/or angels to make the magic work and have precise steps that must be followed as part of the ritual to achieve the desired results. It was almost entirely Catholic clerics passing these spellbooks around too.

Could the dividing line be one of control?

It seems like religious ordinances are a symbolic act used to replace our will with that of the supernatural while ritual magic is a literal act used to exert our will over the supernatural?  It seems like religious ordinances are centered on giving up personal control while ritual magic is about gaining personal control.

For sure though, many a religious person has attempted to exert control over God.  I would guess almost all of us have subconsciously tried to make religious observance and worship into ritual magic on occasion.  That's why we keep getting the 'God is not a vending machine' talks.  The dividing line between the two is definitely there but we struggle with it because following a "recipe" that could ensure a specific outcome is a lot easier than Mosiah 3:19.