Great Apostasy revisited

[telnetd]

19 hours ago, InCognitus said:

“Learn this also: The bodies of men have immortal souls, which have been clothed with the breath of God; and having come forth from God, they are of the same substance, but they are not gods. But if they are gods, then in this way the souls of all men, both those who have died, and those who are alive, and those who shall come into being, are gods. But if in a spirit of controversy you maintain that these also are gods, what great matter is it, then, for Christ to be called God? for He has only what all have.”  (Clementine Homily 16, chapter 16)

Immortal men and women (as souls) are gods before being born to heavenly parents?

[telnetd]

21 hours ago, teddyaware said:

This issue isn’t as cut and dried as you’d like to think it is. Your ‘ah ha moment’ is deprived of its impact due to the following canonized revelation found in Section 93 of the Doctrine and Covenants. In this Section, Jesus Christ himself testifies that he is indeed the Word with the same intended sense of meaning employed by John (please note that the date of the reception of Doctrine and Covenants 93 is at least one year after his earlier attempt to illuminate the meaning of John 1:1 that you referenced). 

4 The Father because he gave me of his fulness, and the Son because I was in the world and made flesh my tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men.

 

When and how?

[InCognitus]

35 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Immortal men and women (as souls) are gods before being born to heavenly parents?

The spirits of men and women (which are sometimes called "souls") are the "kind" of being that God is, all the time.  What it means to be "gods" is relative to that, and obviously not clearly defined as it was shown in that quote from the early Christian writings of Clementine Homilies.

[InCognitus]

37 minutes ago, telnetd said:

When and how?

"O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." (John 17:5)  And, "the glory which thou gavest me I have given them" (John 17:22), and "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world." (John 17:24)

[telnetd]

23 hours ago, InCognitus said:

"O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." (John 17:5)  And, "the glory which thou gavest me I have given them" (John 17:22), and "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world." (John 17:24)

What glory did Jesus have before he was born to his heavenly mother?

[telnetd]

23 hours ago, InCognitus said:

The spirits of men and women (which are sometimes called "souls") are the "kind" of being that God is, all the time.  What it means to be "gods" is relative to that, and obviously not clearly defined as it was shown in that quote from the early Christian writings of Clementine Homilies.

When do spirits of men and women become gods?

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, telnetd said:

What glory did Jesus have before he was born to his heavenly mother?

Obviously not the same glory that God the Father "gave" to Jesus, as Jesus says in John 17:5, 22 and 24.

The early Christians spoke of Jesus receiving these things only after he was begotten by the Father, i.e. "the first-born of all creation, who is the first to be with God, and to attract to Himself divinity, is a being of more exalted rank than the other gods beside Him" (Origen's Commentary on John, book 2 chapter 3).

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, telnetd said:

When do spirits of men and women become gods?

Depends on your point of view.  Jesus called men gods in John 10:34-35, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken."

But many of the early Christians considered it a process of "becoming", like what St. Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170–235 AD) taught in is work Refutation Book 10 Ch. 29:  "For if He had willed to make thee a god, He could have done so. Thou hast the example of the Logos. His will, however, was, that you should be a man, and He has made thee a man. But if thou art desirous of also becoming a god, obey Him that has created thee, and resist not now, in order that, being found faithful in that which is small, you may be enabled to have entrusted to you also that which is great." 

And in Chapter 30 (of the same reference linked above) he indicates that this is not fully realized until we receive immortality (with a resurrected body):

"And thou shalt possess an immortal body, even one placed beyond the possibility of corruption, just like the soul. And thou shalt receive the kingdom of heaven, thou who, whilst thou didst sojourn in this life, didst know the Celestial King. And thou shalt be a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ, no longer enslaved by lusts or passions, and never again wasted by disease. For thou hast become God: for whatever sufferings thou didst undergo while being a man, these He gave to thee, because thou wast of mortal mould, but whatever it is consistent with God to impart, these God has promised to bestow upon thee, because thou hast been deified, and begotten unto immortality."

Edited Sunday at 07:34 PM by InCognitus

[telnetd]

21 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Depends on your point of view.  Jesus called men gods in John 10:34-35, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken."

But many of the early Christians considered it a process of "becoming", like what St. Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170–235 AD) taught in is work Refutation Book 10 Ch. 29:

The introduction notes to Doctrine and Covenants 132 says "Celestial marriage and a 
continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods".

[teddyaware]

20 minutes ago, telnetd said:

The introduction notes to Doctrine and Covenants 132 says "Celestial marriage and a 
continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods".

Do you believe in the resurrection that men and women’s resurrected bodies are going to be anatomically correct, with their internal and external male and female reproductive organs fully intact, or do you believe our resurrected bodies are going to be like genderless Barbie and Ken dolls, with no way beyond mere outward appearance to be able to differentiate between those who were once men and once women on earth? 

43 The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame, even as we now are at this time; and we shall be brought to stand before God, knowing even as we know now, and have a bright recollection of all our guilt.

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is oneGod, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. (Alma 11)

[telnetd]

On 8/3/2026 at 1:29 PM, teddyaware said:

Do you believe in the resurrection that men and women’s resurrected bodies are going to be anatomically correct, with their internal and external male and female reproductive organs fully intact, or do you believe our resurrected bodies are going to be like genderless Barbie and Ken dolls, with no way beyond mere outward appearance to be able to differentiate between those who were once men and once women on earth? 

Yes.

Whether the newly formed Gods will use their reproductive organs to produce spirit
children is questionable. I haven't see any teachings of your church which say how
Mother and Father interacted in their marriage to perform this. But if they did, one
shouldn't be offended by the thought.