Why I Haven't Become a Member

[Calm]

More fun…even Paradise gets called a spirit prison…

Quote

• The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that the terms we often use in describing life after death—such as Hades, Sheol, paradise, and spirit prison—all refer to “world of spirits” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 310).

  Elder Bruce R. McConkie said, “Since disembodied spirits cannot gain a fulness of joy until their resurrection (D&C 93:33–34), they consider their habitation in the spirit world as one of imprisonment, and so the whole spirit world (including both paradise and hell) is a spirit prison” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 755).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel/chapter-30?lang=eng

Once you feel you have got a handle of the various definitions of LDS Spirit Prison and Hell, we will move on to the multitudes that are Salvation and Damnation. Fun times!

Edited June 29 by Calm

[Calm]

Jay, I applaud you for researching our faith.  But you have been studying it for 6 months, correct?

That’s not very long for studying religious faith of any kind, especially if you aren’t attending meetings and discussing with members how they use the language.

That would be like studying Spanish from a textbook and believing one was fluent once one memorized all the vocabulary in a basic text when one had never heard it spoken.

Quite a few posters here are not only life long members (for me that’s over 65 years), but we have also been deep diving it even before there was the internet and discussing it here and elsewhere online for over 2 decades.

And if anyone of us like this claimed they were absolute experts in everything LDS, I would laugh in their face…not mocking, but kindly because of their delusion.

The leaders who determine our official doctrine are not professional theologians trained in preaching and scripture languages so they can read and understand the original texts.  We are led by lay ministers who have the same Sunday School and personal at home level of training in scripture and doctrine as the rest of us members.  It makes for messiness, a bit of chaos even.   

Not saying they are not inspired, I believe our teachings are based in revelation, but I am speaking about using precision in speaking and writing like academics are taught to do in many fields to avoid confusion.

Edited June 29 by Calm

[Jay 4 Christ]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Jay, I applaud you for researching our faith.  But you have been studying it for 6 months, correct?

That’s not very long for studying religious faith of any kind, especially if you aren’t attending meetings and discussing with members how they use the language.

That would be like studying Spanish from a textbook and believing one was fluent once one memorized all the vocabulary in a basic text when one had never heard it spoken.

Quite a few posters here are not only life long members (for me that’s over 65 years), but we have also been deep diving it even before there was the internet and discussing it here and elsewhere online for over 2 decades.

And if anyone of us like this claimed they were absolute experts in everything LDS, I would laugh in their face…not mocking, but kindly because of their delusion.

The leaders who determine our official doctrine are not professional theologians trained in preaching and scripture languages so they can read and understand the original texts.  We are led by lay ministers who have the same Sunday School and personal at home level of training in scripture and doctrine as the rest of us members.  It makes for messiness, a bit of chaos even.   

Not saying they are not inspired, I believe our teachings are based in revelation, but I am speaking about using precision in speaking and writing like academics are taught to do in many fields to avoid confusion.

I think we're getting lost in definitions and overlookng the actual real issue.

Let's go back to take a look at the person who started the thread. He isn't an atheist, he isn't mocking Christ, he isn't living in open rebellion against God. It seems to me he's a sincere Christian attempting to explain his loyalty to Christ and why he can't accept Mormonism. And according to Mormon theology, none of that is enough.

No matter how much he loves Christ, or how faithful he is, Mormon theology and doctrine says he doesn't enter Spirit Paradise. He enters Prison, also called Hell. 

So I guess if you want we can debate whether Paradise is also some kind of temporary captivity or if prison has different meanings, either way, according to Mormon doctrine still places him in Spirit Prison not Paradise.

Doesn't that tell us that Mormonism views Christianity itself is ultimately insufficient? Doesn't Mormonism teach that Christianity must be completed beyond itself? That's why I struggle when I hear Mormons say they are "Christians." Mormonism treats Christianity as something that has to be corrected or supplemented or I guess completed by Mormonism before it can become what God intentions the true Christianity to be.

Can't speak for the gentleman that started the thread but for me Mormonism places Christianity beneath the "restored gospel."

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

On 5/16/2026 at 1:21 PM, Navidad said:

Why I haven’t become a Member:

1. I would have to agree to be rebaptized because of a doctrine that only the LDS baptism is pleasing to Christ in terms of mode, manner, and authority. My own father baptized me. I have baptized many people. I do not believe in the onlyness of LDS baptism and/or authority. It wouldn’t bother me if it wasn’t a requirement for joining.

2. I am in agreement that churches (both individually and as affiliates of a group of churches), broadly speaking, break down into two types: fence groups and well (the kind that provides water) groups. The distinction is that fence churches build policies, doctrine, and guidelines to keep members in and to keep outsiders out. Well churches have a well (metaphorically speaking) built in the center that keeps the flock close by because it is a source of refreshment in the form of teaching, loving, and nourishing. It doesn’t worry about keeping others out or on the edge of fellowship. After six years of full-time faithful non-member worship, fellowship, and ministry, I believe the LDS church is more fence-oriented than well-oriented. That doesn’t work for me.

3. I don’t believe churches should keep secrets, especially about means of growth, participation, and spiritual renewal. I could never take an oath or agree to an expectation that I would keep silent about temple ordinances. I would want to spread the word; not hide it, especially if it is indeed sacred. The more sacred, the more meaningful; the more meaningful, the more it needs to be shared.

4. As probably most of you know, I am very uncomfortable with the onlying, othering, and persecution identity (all three are connected) that have become endemic to the LDS Church's individual and group identity. I think all three are unhealthy and inaccurate. To deny that the godly people I know as non-LDS Christians can have thee gift of the Holy Spirit outside the LDS Church is a non-starter for me. There can be no question of the Holy Spirit's power and Gift in many godly non-LDS Christians. Non-LDS Christians who become LDS Christians are migrants, not converts.

5. Regarding LAD – life after death—I cannot see eternity in a place where Christ and the Father do not dwell as anything but Hell (in the non-brimstone sense). I also do not believe Christian denominational and group identity will survive into eternity. We will all be in the same boat on that ocean. Boats aren’t marked by denomination or earthly affiliation.

Those are my five reasons. Having said all that, I must say this as well. . . . . None of that relates, for me, to either salvation or exaltation (which I deem sanctification). So, yes, I believe that LDS Christians are capable of being fully and completely Christians, just as are folks from any other group, Christian or perhaps, according to the wideness in God’s mercy, non-Christian as well. I believe that wideness extends to the Judgment Seat of Christ. Perfect judgment based on love, mercy, and perfect wisdom. No Mennonites, Catholics, or Mormons (sorry) in eternity. There will simply be humans - waiting for Christ to make His decisions one by one. 

I also must say that as an Evangelical, I hold my beliefs with faith, not with certainty. Humongous difference. I am also 120% convinced of the kindness of a majority of my LDS friends. That kind of kindness can only come from the Holy Spirit.

I am open to your thoughts. For those of you who have been around for a while, there is most likely nothing new in what I have said. Best wishes to all. 

I'm coming into this waaaay late, but what I read you saying, in summary, is that...

*you haven't received a testimony of the truth claims of the Restoration

and

*you perceive the culture as too conservative.

Not really much we can do about either one of those- so go be the best <whatever type of Protestant Christian you are> that you can be.

[ZealouslyStriving]

38 minutes ago, Jay 4 Christ said:

No matter how much he loves Christ, or how faithful he is, Mormon theology and doctrine says he doesn't enter Spirit Paradise. He enters Prison, also called Hell. 

Incorrect.

Spirit Prison and Hell are two different states in the time between death and resurrection.

* Spirit Prison is a state of learning and one can advance to a higher state.

* Hell is a state in which the wicked unrepentant dwell from which there is no deliverance until the resurrection.

Even many Latter-day Saints are confused by this issue because they don't study the "Gospel Principles" manual- which is vitally important in discussing our actual doctrine with others.

[longview]

43 minutes ago, Jay 4 Christ said:

Can't speak for the gentleman that started the thread but for me Mormonism places Christianity beneath the "restored gospel."

Where Christianity is "buffet style" or the "cafeteria approach" and the restored Gospel is a "House of Order" reflecting the consistency of God.

[ZealouslyStriving]

55 minutes ago, Jay 4 Christ said:

Mormonism treats Christianity as something that has to be corrected or supplemented or I guess completed by Mormonism before it can become what God intentions the true Christianity to be.

Incorrect

* "Christianity" (1) as the whole sum of the teachings of God to His children is perfect and in no need of correcting.

* "Christianity" (2) as in religious institutions found in Catholicism and Protestantism (the definition I believe you are using) is full of errors and is in need of correcting from its Hellenist roots. But it's not our job to correct those institutions.

* "Mormonism" (3) is an unfolding Restoration of Christ's church which progressively is incorporating all truths that have been lost in the various apostasies that have occurred since the beginning of this earth.

So 3 isn't a correction of 2 it is a renewal of 1.

Hope that helps.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Jay 4 Christ said:

Doesn't that tell us that Mormonism views Christianity itself is ultimately insufficient?

The Restored Gospel views mortality as insufficient.   What comes next is about filling in the gaps for all and allowing Christ and his Atonement to work on us until we are both ready for the next step and it’s ready for us (Second Coming opening up resurrection).

Even for active, devout LDS members with all their temple work done this is not an easy, short term step as taught by Joseph Smith.  There is much even temple endowed still need to learn.  We have our ordinances done, but can’t make full use of them yet.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=eng

Quote

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 268).

Not only that, the Spirit World is not off somewhere, but in the here and now with us, surrounding us though we are mostly unaware of it.

Quote

In terms of location, the Prophet Joseph Smith taught that the spirit world is very close to us. During a funeral sermon, he declared that the righteous spirits “are exalted to a greater and more glorious work; hence they are blessed in their departure to the world of spirits. Enveloped in flaming fire, they are not far from us.” (Teachings, p. 326.)

Quote

President Young confirmed that the spirit world “is on this earth.” (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 376.) In a recent general conference, President Ezra Taft Benson declared that “the spirit world is not far away. Sometimes the veil between this life and the life beyond becomes very thin. Our loved ones who have passed on are not far from us.” (Ensign, June 1971, p. 33.)

Apparently the spirit world is incorporated with the physical world. The earth has a spirit in it just as our physical bodies have spirits in them. Elder Parley P. Pratt wrote that the spirit world “is here on the very planet where we were born; or in other words, the earth and other planets of like sphere, have their inward or spiritual spheres, as well as their outward, or temporal. The one is peopled by temporal tabernacles, and the other by spirits. A veil is drawn between the one sphere and the other, whereby all the objects in the spiritual sphere are rendered invisible to those in the temporal.” (Key to Theology, 9th ed., Deseret Book, 1965, pp. 126–27.)

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1977/01/the-spirit-world-our-next-home?lang=eng

Speculation:  This implies to me and many other Saints that not only are Paradise, Spirit Prison, and Hell (using Hell solely for the unrepentant here as that is typical usage when discussing this topic in detail) a state of mind or being rather than specific locations, but it’s possibly true for the degrees of glory in heaven.  We are all together, just some are more spiritually aware than others of their surroundings.  

Paradise is defined in our scriptures as a state of being, a state of peace.  Spirit Prison would have has those seeking that peace, Hell is those rejecting that peace.

Quote

“The spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.” (Alma 40:12.)

 

Edited June 29 by Calm

[Navidad]

I am the original poster in this discussion. I have no time today to jump into the discussion. Sorry about that. I will do so tomorrow. I  have a conference to speak at this evening, and I  have to make sure I am ready. Oh, and the conference is about religious and other conflicts in the 1930s here in Chihuahua. It should be an enjoyable time (for me, at least)! Best, Navidad

[Jay 4 Christ]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Incorrect

* "Christianity" (1) as the whole sum of the teachings of God to His children is perfect and in no need of correcting.

* "Christianity" (2) as in religious institutions found in Catholicism and Protestantism (the definition I believe you are using) is full of errors and is in need of correcting from its Hellenist roots. But it's not our job to correct those institutions.

* "Mormonism" (3) is an unfolding Restoration of Christ's church which progressively is incorporating all truths that have been lost in the various apostasies that have occurred since the beginning of this earth.

So 3 isn't a correction of 2 it is a renewal of 1.

Hope that helps.

I think you actually just proved the point I've been trying to make.

You're not arguing Mormonism is one branch of Christianity, you're saying the Christianity that has existed for 2,000 years has lost everything that originally made it Christianity including priesthood, authority, ordinances and the fullness of the gospel. So essentially everything that matters.

So what does that leave? I guess in your opinion it leaves Mormonism as the only religion that actually has what he gave his original church. That's why I keep saying I don't understand why Mormons spend so much time saying "we're Christians too." 

Here's a short list of what I can remember Mormon theology saying Christianity has lost. 

Priesthood authority.

Valid baptism.

Saving ordinances.

Fullness of gospel.

Complete organization of Christ Church. 

Sealing power.

Living prophets.

And whatever Christianity still has Mormonism says it isn't meaningful enough to accomplish what ultimately matters most. 

 

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 minutes ago, Jay 4 Christ said:

I guess in your opinion it leaves Mormonism as the only religion that actually has what he gave his original church.

Yes. But ya'll have some good basic stuff:

* Faith *Hope *Charity *Repentance 

and those are nothing to sniff at.

2 minutes ago, Jay 4 Christ said:

That's why I keep saying I don't understand why Mormons spend so much time saying "we're Christians too." 

I don't either, if what 2 is what is being thought of when the term is used.

[Jay 4 Christ]

Imagine there's a hospital that's been attempting to serve people for 2000 years without doctors, nurses, it's authority to perform surgeries. It's been robbed of all its crucial equipment, it's operating rooms, the pharmacy is shut down and it's ability to perform the very procedures that save lives.

What's left? The building is standing, there's a few chairs and a few hospital beds and people sincerely come there looking for help but there's nothing in the building that can save them anymore. 

In my opinion that's how Mormons view Christianity. 

If I'm mistaken please tell me what you believe Christianity still has to offer people? 

[Jay 4 Christ]

13 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I don't either, if what 2 is what is being thought of when the term is used.

I appreciate the honesty!

[ZealouslyStriving]

5 minutes ago, Jay 4 Christ said:

I appreciate the honesty!

No problem.

I feel our apologetics has gotten too apologetic sometimes. We should be bold and proud of who we are and what we believe.

[Jay 4 Christ]

34 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

No problem.

I feel our apologetics has gotten too apologetic sometimes. We should be bold and proud of who we are and what we believe.

I agree! I respect your answer. 

If Mormonism really believes that the priesthood, authority, ordinances and fullness of the Christian gospel isn't found within Christianity then just plainly say that like you are. I think more traditional Christians would respect Mormonism. 

I respect someone who's willing to own their beliefs, even if I disagree. 

 

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Jay 4 Christ said:

That's why I keep saying I don't understand why Mormons spend so much time saying "we're Christians too." 

Because for the vast majority of LDS, being a Christian isn’t about what church you belong to, but if you are trying to follow Christ, see him as your Saviour.

And LDS most certainly view Christ in that way.

Edited June 29 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Jay 4 Christ said:

Imagine there's a hospital that's been attempting to serve people for 2000 years without doctors, nurses, it's authority to perform surgeries. It's been robbed of all its crucial equipment, it's operating rooms, the pharmacy is shut down and it's ability to perform the very procedures that save lives.

What's left? The building is standing, there's a few chairs and a few hospital beds and people sincerely come there looking for help but there's nothing in the building that can save them anymore. 

In my opinion that's how Mormons view Christianity. 

If I'm mistaken please tell me what you believe Christianity still has to offer people? 

Is it a hospital and is it still trying to save people even with its limited resources?  Isn’t that what matters most in defining a hospital?

The first hospitals were very basic and lacked doctors and nurses since there were no medical schools back then, just had people (often those who were called to a religious life and the hospitals were at times temples and sanctuaries) trying to care for others. 

Edited June 29 by Calm

[manol]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

Not only that, the Spirit World is not off somewhere, but in the here and now with us, surrounding us though we are mostly unaware of it...

Speculation:  This implies to me and many other Saints that not only are Paradise, Spirit Prison, and Hell (using Hell solely for the unrepentant here as that is typical usage when discussing this topic in detail) a state of mind or being rather than specific locations, but it’s possibly true for the degrees of glory in heaven.

I think you are correct!  I think it's a state of mind, or state of being, far moreso than a geographic location.

I think this same principle applies even down here:  Two people can be in the same physical location, with one chosing awareness of the presence of the Divine, while the other lets their awareness default to whatever negative thoughts want their attention now. 

 

8 hours ago, Calm said:

 We are all together, just some are more spiritually aware than others of their surroundings. 

Imo our "surroundings" right now very literally include an unseen divine Presence here in the room with us and/or even within us.  D&C 88:41.  I think awareness of the presence of the Divine starts with acknowledgment of the presence of the Divine.  Part of this mortal experience is that we cannot simply flip that awareness switch one time and it stays flipped, but I think it is possible for us to flip it as needed by placing intention and attention on doing so.  I think this is a "muscle" worth developing. 

 

Edited June 30 by manol