What would 2 Nephi 25:23 mean if you changed one word?

[InCognitus]

6 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

On 2/23/2026 at 11:21 AM, InCognitus said:

If we can fail of His grace, then God's grace is insufficient for us in that application and it DOES depend on what we do.  Even though God is fully sufficient in all things, he obviously doesn't apply it sufficiently to us if we can "fail the grace of God".

Not necessarily. It simply indicates that His grace was sufficient at all times but people did not persevere until the end.

Hebrews 12:14-15?  "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled".

Answer this question for the verse above:   For the person who doesn't follow peace with all men, and holiness, and fails the grace of God, was God's grace applied sufficiently in that situation so that the person did not fail the grace of God?  Yes or no?

When you answer that question you will see where your logic is flawed with regard to the rest of your argument.

6 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

On 2/23/2026 at 11:21 AM, InCognitus said:

But the process of sanctification and "perfecting holiness" involves the application of Christ's grace along the way as long as we are participating with him in the process

It’s apparent you think His grace is insufficient prior to the commencement of the process.

It's apparent that you are trying to twist what I am saying and conflate the sufficient application of God's grace in any given situation with the completeness of God's power as a whole.  God is all powerful.  How he applies his power sufficient to any given application is up to him.

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Hebrews 12:14-15?  "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled".

Answer this question for the verse above:   For the person who doesn't follow peace with all men, and holiness, and fails the grace of God, was God's grace applied sufficiently in that situation so that the person did not fail the grace of God?  Yes or no?

When you answer that question you will see where your logic is flawed with regard to the rest of your argument.

It's apparent that you are trying to twist what I am saying and conflate the sufficient application of God's grace in any given situation with the completeness of God's power as a whole.  God is all powerful.  How he applies his power sufficient to any given application is up to him.

All of this all boils down to the following testimony of the Apostle Peter who most solemnly warned the saints that there were members of the church in his day who were twisting and misinterpreting Paul’s teachings to their own destruction. The reason why those who misinterpret Paul in our day will twist themselves into pretzels rather than accept the obvious fact that the Lord requires them to keep his commandments is because if they accept the truth they’ll actually be required to get off their derrières and do something.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the long suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

18 But grow in the grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. (2 Peter 3)

Edited February 27 by teddyaware

[The Nehor]

On 2/26/2026 at 7:25 PM, teddyaware said:

All of this all boils down to the following testimony of the Apostle Peter who most solemnly warned the saints that there were members of the church in his day who were twisting and misinterpreting Paul’s teachings to their own destruction. The reason why those who misinterpret Paul in our day will twist themselves into pretzels rather than accept the obvious fact that the Lord requires them to keep his commandments is because if they accept the truth they’ll actually be required to get off their derrières and do something.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the long suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

18 But grow in the grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. (2 Peter 3)

That letter wasn’t written by Peter and from the one interaction we know they had Peter and Paul did not get along according to the only first-hand account of it we have.

[GoCeltics]

On 2/26/2026 at 1:03 PM, teddyaware said:

Of course his grace is always fully sufficient and freely offered!. The problem isn’t on God’s end but on man’s. And what is the problem that hinders men from laying hold on God’s freely offered and fully sufficient grace? It’s that even converted believers have a perennial problem with frustrating the grace of God, and they will do it even as God is beckoning to them and freely offering them the fulness of his grace.

If a man has been invited to a sumptuous feast, is it the fault of the host or the invitee if the invitee refuses to fill his plate with delicacies and enjoy a delicious, nourishing meal? This gospel principle is so simple and easy to comprehend that even young children can understand it. It’s not God’s fault if a lack of faith causes a man to hesitate or even refuse to partake of his freely offered infinite and eternal grace.

It’s not the host’s fault if someone decides not to show up.

The feast is already sufficient on its own. Its sufficiency doesn’t depend on whether an invited guest performs every condition laid out in in Moroni 10:32.

[GoCeltics]

On 2/26/2026 at 6:04 PM, InCognitus said:

Hebrews 12:14-15?  "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled".

Answer this question for the verse above:   For the person who doesn't follow peace with all men, and holiness, and fails the grace of God, was God's grace applied sufficiently in that situation so that the person did not fail the grace of God?  Yes or no?

When you answer that question you will see where your logic is flawed with regard to the rest of your argument.

Hebrews 12:14-15 does not teach Christ’s grace is insufficient if a person fails of the grace of God.

There are several aspects to grace.

First: Is God’s grace sufficient? Yes. Is it sufficient before following all the conditions laid out in Moroni 10:32? Yes.

Second: When does God’s grace become sufficient?

According to the Bible, God’s grace is described as sufficient in the midst of human weakness, not after a person reaches a certain level of worthiness or perfection.

The clearest statement comes from 2 Corinthians 12:9, where the Apostle Paul recounts the Lord telling him: “My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.”

In that context, Paul had asked for a hardship to be removed, but instead God declared that His grace was already enough. The sufficiency of grace was not dependent on Paul overcoming the weakness first. Rather, grace operates precisely in weakness.

Other related passages reinforce this idea:

Romans 5:20 — “Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.”

Hebrews 4:16 — “Believers are invited to come boldly to receive mercy and find grace “in time of need.”

From these passages, the biblical pattern suggests:

• Grace is sufficient when we are weak.

• Grace is available in time of need.

• Grace is not portrayed as becoming sufficient only after human perfection.

Third: Is it possible to fail to take advantage of something that is already sufficient? Yes.

Fourth: Does that somehow cancel out or invalidate the sufficiency of that grace? No.

 

On 2/26/2026 at 6:04 PM, InCognitus said:

It's apparent that you are trying to twist what I am saying and conflate the sufficient application of God's grace in any given situation with the completeness of God's power as a whole.  God is all powerful.  How he applies his power sufficient to any given application is up to him.

Several church articles define grace (see examples one and two).

There’s nothing in those passages suggesting that God’s grace is somehow insufficient and only becomes sufficient after someone fulfills every condition laid out in Moroni 10:32.

If God gives you a hammer for a job, that hammer is sufficient for the task. If He gives you a wrench, the wrench is sufficient for its purpose.

Can you fail to benefit from what you’ve been given? Of course — simply by refusing to use it. But your refusal doesn’t make the tool inadequate. It just means you chose not to use something that was already sufficient.

[InCognitus]

5 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

On 2/26/2026 at 4:04 PM, InCognitus said:

Hebrews 12:14-15?  "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled".

Answer this question for the verse above:   For the person who doesn't follow peace with all men, and holiness, and fails the grace of God, was God's grace applied sufficiently in that situation so that the person did not fail the grace of God?  Yes or no?

When you answer that question you will see where your logic is flawed with regard to the rest of your argument.

Hebrews 12:14-15 does not teach Christ’s grace is insufficient if a person fails of the grace of God.

That wasn't the question, and you dodged the actual question (I suspected you would). 

For the person that doesn't follow peace with all men and holiness, so that they "fail the grace of God", is God's grace APPLIED SUFFICIENTLY to that person so that they end up not failing the grace of God?  You know the answer and that's why you are dodging the question.  The answer is NO (otherwise there is no danger in failing the grace of God).

You keep ignoring God's APPLICATION of his grace which makes it sufficient to people in those individual circumstances.

Earlier in the thread you said this:

On 2/23/2026 at 9:24 AM, GoCeltics said:

There's a matter of when grace is available, applied, and when it is sufficient.

Here you seem to recognize the difference between the availability of grace and distinguish it from when it is applied, but you fail to understand that the "sufficiency" of that grace pertains to both of those situations.

God's grace is ALWAYS available, no question about it. But when it is applied is based on God's rules, and all of his rules require that we do things to make the application of his grace sufficient to the application of those various purposes.

For example:  An atheist who denied the existence of God and Jesus all his life dies and goes before the judgement seat of Christ.  Is God's grace applied to that person sufficiently so that he is saved and goes to heaven?  Yes or no?

This is no different than the question asked about Hebrews 12:14-15.  A person who "fails the grace of God" does not have God's grace sufficiently applied to THEM to make them holy and perfected.  They have "failed the grace of God".

5 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

According to the Bible, God’s grace is described as sufficient in the midst of human weakness, not after a person reaches a certain level of worthiness or perfection.

The clearest statement comes from 2 Corinthians 12:9, where the Apostle Paul recounts the Lord telling him: “My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.”

In that context, Paul had asked for a hardship to be removed, but instead God declared that His grace was already enough. The sufficiency of grace was not dependent on Paul overcoming the weakness first. Rather, grace operates precisely in weakness.

But this context goes against your entire point. 

In 2 Corinthians 12, Paul was "glorying" in the revelations and abundance of things he had seen and done and the things that he had suffered for Christ, and this is the exact same usage of "sufficiency" as we find in Moroni 10:32.  

In other words, Paul had been cleansing himself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God and denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, and living soberly, righteously, and godly, with all his might, mind and strength, but he had a "thorn in the flesh" that he had no power to remove.  Paul said that the "thorn in the flesh" was what prevented him from being "exalted above measure". 

So just as Moroni 10:32 says, God's grace was sufficiently applied to Paul's situation so that he was perfected in Christ and sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, becoming holy and without spot.  It is the exact same application and SUPPORTS the reading of Moroni 10:32-33.

5 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

Other related passages reinforce this idea:

Romans 5:20 — “Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.”

Hebrews 4:16 — “Believers are invited to come boldly to receive mercy and find grace “in time of need.”

From these passages, the biblical pattern suggests:

• Grace is sufficient when we are weak.

• Grace is available in time of need.

But none of these examples have to do with sanctification and perfecting holiness in the fear of God.  

5 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

Grace is not portrayed as becoming sufficient only after human perfection.

That's right, because Moroni 10:32 does not portray grace as "becoming sufficient only after human perfection".  This shows that you are still trying to twist the meaning.

We are to "come unto Christ, and be perfected in him".  We do this by denying ungodliness and worldly lusts (Titus 2:11–14), purifying oneself (1 John 3:3), cleansing oneself from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit and perfecting holiness (2 Corinthians 7:1), and basically being obedient (1 Peter 1:13-17) and keeping the commandments that Jesus gave (1 Thessalonians 4:1-7).  And, just like Paul, by striving to do these things God's grace is sufficiently applied to make us perfect in Christ, becoming holy, without spot, even though we may still have a "thorn in the flesh".  It is only IN CHRIST that we are perfected "in him".

5 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

Third: Is it possible to fail to take advantage of something that is already sufficient? Yes.

Fourth: Does that somehow cancel out or invalidate the sufficiency of that grace? No.

Failing to take advantage of something that is always available and sufficient cancels out the sufficient application of that grace in that person's situation.  They don't receive it and it's not sufficient FOR THEM to be perfected or made holy (in the Hebrews 12:14-15 example).

5 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

If God gives you a hammer for a job, that hammer is sufficient for the task. If He gives you a wrench, the wrench is sufficient for its purpose.

Can you fail to benefit from what you’ve been given? Of course — simply by refusing to use it. But your refusal doesn’t make the tool inadequate. It just means you chose not to use something that was already sufficient.

In the Hebrews 12:14-15 example, the person is given a list of tools that are inadequate to fully complete the job.  The tools are: follow peace with all men, and holiness, and looking diligently.  People are not perfect and nor can they become perfect on their own.  And if a person doesn't even begin to use those tools then they are the ones that "fail the grace of God" by not starting the job that God will finish by sufficiently applying grace to make the job complete.  God does not sufficiently APPLY his grace to them in that situation.

Edited March 1 by InCognitus

[GoCeltics]

On 3/1/2026 at 5:48 PM, InCognitus said:

For the person that doesn't follow peace with all men and holiness, so that they "fail the grace of God", is God's grace APPLIED SUFFICIENTLY to that person so that they end up not failing the grace of God?  You know the answer and that's why you are dodging the question.  The answer is NO (otherwise there is no danger in failing the grace of God).

You keep ignoring God's APPLICATION of his grace which makes it sufficient to people in those individual circumstances.

Our shortcomings or failing of the grace of God doesn’t make His grace insufficient.
 

On 3/1/2026 at 5:48 PM, InCognitus said:

Here you seem to recognize the difference between the availability of grace and distinguish it from when it is applied, but you fail to understand that the "sufficiency" of that grace pertains to both of those situations.

If you’re thirsty and someone hands you a glass of water, that water is already sufficient to quench your thirst. It doesn’t become sufficient only after you drink it. Its sufficiency isn’t dependent on whether you accept it or when you choose to drink it.

I’m not talking about the availability of the water or the moment it’s applied. I’m focusing on when it is sufficient — and it is sufficient in itself, regardless of what you do with it.
 

On 3/1/2026 at 5:48 PM, InCognitus said:

For example:  An atheist who denied the existence of God and Jesus all his life dies and goes before the judgement seat of Christ.  Is God's grace applied to that person sufficiently so that he is saved and goes to heaven?  Yes or no?

God’s grace is sufficient even for the atheist before he is saved. Its sufficiency does not begin at the moment of faith — it already exists in full. However, it is not fully realized in that person until faith responds to it.

Is God’s grace sufficient to save him? Yes.
Is it sufficient if he begins the journey but later falls away? Yes.

The sufficiency of grace was never the issue. The question is not whether grace was enough, but whether it was received and relied upon. If someone ultimately fails, it is not because God’s grace was insufficient, but because he refused to make use of what was fully sufficient all along.
 

On 3/1/2026 at 5:48 PM, InCognitus said:

So just as Moroni 10:32 says, God's grace was sufficiently applied to Paul's situation so that he was perfected in Christ and sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, becoming holy and without spot.  It is the exact same application and SUPPORTS the reading of Moroni 10:32-33.

God’s grace was already sufficient before it was ever applied to Paul’s situation — commonly understood to relate to his eyes. The sufficiency wasn’t created in the moment it was given. It already existed.

When God said, “My grace is sufficient for you” (2 Corinthians 12:9), He wasn’t making it sufficient at that point. He was declaring a sufficiency that was already fully present.

Application does not create sufficiency — it reveals it.
 

On 3/1/2026 at 5:48 PM, InCognitus said:

That's right, because Moroni 10:32 does not portray grace as "becoming sufficient only after human perfection".  This shows that you are still trying to twist the meaning.

We are to "come unto Christ, and be perfected in him". 

Moroni 10:32 refers to the IF / THEN condition.

“Be perfected” equates to “become perfect.”

“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him”, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.”

His grace does not become sufficient in order to make you perfect in Christ. It is already sufficient. Its sufficiency is what enables that perfection, but it does not depend on you.

The power and completeness are in the grace itself — not in your performance, not in your effort. It’s not about you achieving something that makes grace effective.

It’s all about Christ and what He has already accomplished.
 

On 3/1/2026 at 5:48 PM, InCognitus said:

In the Hebrews 12:14-15 example, the person is given a list of tools that are inadequate to fully complete the job.  The tools are: follow peace with all men, and holiness, and looking diligently.  People are not perfect and nor can they become perfect on their own.  And if a person doesn't even begin to use those tools then they are the ones that "fail the grace of God" by not starting the job that God will finish by sufficiently applying grace to make the job complete.  God does not sufficiently APPLY his grace to them in that situation.

Exactly. The tools — God’s grace — are already sufficient before they are ever placed in your hands. Their sufficiency isn’t created by your use of them.

If someone fails to use those tools, that failure does not make the tools themselves insufficient. The adequacy was always there. The issue is not a lack in the grace, but a refusal to rely on it.

The sufficiency remains constant, regardless of the response.

[GoCeltics]

On 3/1/2026 at 5:48 PM, InCognitus said:

In the Hebrews 12:14-15 example, the person is given a list of tools that are inadequate to fully complete the job.  The tools are: follow peace with all men, and holiness, and looking diligently.  People are not perfect and nor can they become perfect on their own.  And if a person doesn't even begin to use those tools then they are the ones that "fail the grace of God" by not starting the job that God will finish by sufficiently applying grace to make the job complete.  God does not sufficiently APPLY his grace to them in that situation.

I’m modifying the last part of my previous reply because I wanted to address the aspect of fully completing the job.

The tools — God’s grace — are already sufficient before they are ever placed in your hands. Their sufficiency isn’t created by your use of them.

If someone fails to use those tools and fully complete the job, that failure does not make the tools themselves insufficient. The adequacy was always there. The issue is not a lack in the grace, but a refusal to rely on it.

The sufficiency remains constant, regardless of the response.

If you’ re saying that God did not provide you with the tools needed to fully complete the job, then that would imply His grace was insufficient for you. In that case, it would seem improper for Him to have given you the task without properly equipping you for it.

I read the article “His Grace Is Sufficient” in the Ensign, and nothing in it indicates that God’s grace becomes sufficient only after certain criteria are met.

Can you provide an example where God gave you the grace to complete a task, yet the failure to complete it was due solely to the insufficiency of His grace and not anything on the your part?