What They Talk About: Ex-Mormons "Grifting" Christians

[Pyreaux]

I must say, it's been interesting to see what goes on between the non-Mormon factions. I'm trying to get a look at what the Ex-Mormon movement is from its Christian lurkers on their forum. One of the most consistent themes in Christian responses to ex-Mormon content is the idea that critics are just in it for the money.

“They’re not sincere - they’re just making money. It's grift”

Sure, LDS apologists are on there saying it, but this accusation has been especially loud from evangelical Christian circles, where LDS critics are sometimes dismissed outright as “wolves” profiting off the flock’s confusion. Then there are also cynical Ex-Mos who just distrust big names speaking out too.

Who Are They Talking About?

Names frequently brought up in this context include: YouTubers who make regular videos about LDS doctrine, culture, or scandals. Ex-Mormon TikTokers who post viral content about garments, missions, or church trauma. Podcasters like John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) or Radio Free Mormon, who get both praise and scorn there. Former Ex-Mormon turned Pastors, particularly evangelical converts who write books or run ministries about “coming out of Mormonism.”

In these critiques, the money is framed as proof of insincerity - once a dollar is made, nothing the person says can be trusted.

Example on Reddit:

A recent thread in r/exmormon discussed a new LDS apologetic website targeting critics, but quickly turned into a debate about who’s profiting and whether either side can be trusted:

“So both sides are basically grifting now?”
“Why is it only ‘anti-Mormons’ who get accused of this? FAIR literally gets tithing money to run their stuff.”

So, the reply is usually these "whataboutisms":

LDS apologists like those at FAIR and Deseret Book get paid. LDS leaders get living stipends, security, travel allowances.

Sites like C@rm.org, GotQuestions, or Christian YouTube podcasts sometimes frame Ex-Mo voices as “profiting off lies.” These same sources usually have donation buttons and their own merch.

Or they'll defended them by saying most Ex-Mos don't actually make much money, just a few have learned how to gain a following.

Ex-Mormon content is mainly consumed by Never-Mormons

Ex-Mo processing or storytelling becomes entertainment or content fuel for Never-Mormons. Some just enjoy “cult drama.” Others see it as proof that all religion is harmful. This visibility pulls in critics, gawkers, and saviors from outside the faith - many of whom have no real context or connection.

But Evangelicals are calling it out Ex-Mo grift... to defend Mormons?

This is the wildest twist: Evangelicals - who have no theological sympathy for Mormonism - sometimes jump in to defend the LDS Church, not because they like it… but because they hate the Ex-Mo content creator more. While, Ex-Mos think LDS defenders are either on the Church’s payroll or deluded.

Discussion:

Have you seen Evangelical Christians jump in to “defend” the LDS Church from an Ex-Mo voice?

Do you think their concern is theological, or just resentment toward public deconstruction?

Why are critics so quick to assume LDS financial motives, but rarely reflect that back on their own side?

Does money always cheapen a message, or are people just uncomfortable seeing others get paid to be outspoken?

Edited July 30, 2025 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

On 7/30/2025 at 4:44 PM, Pyreaux said:

FAIR literally gets tithing money to run their stuff.”

We have very minimal staff, one admin last I heard and then tech people as needed.  They are the only ones getting paid. Not the apologists.

The admin staff person was added a few years ago.  I have no time sense, but I am pretty sure two more people took over membership after I did it (no pay) before we finally gritted our teeth and accepted it had to be more consistent help, which was only possibly with a paid position.  No one answering questions through the elist gets paid, we pay for the privilege in fact.

The idea that FAIR members would be influenced by money is laughable.  If we were, it would be to stop being involved because no one is making money by doing this at FAIR.  FAIR is a hobby for us that we pay for, not an income producing side hustle.

Yes, it is wonderful to get donations to pay for necessary equipment and allows us to create content because we can’t just do it with our phones, but money influencing us, please!  That is a lazy criticism.  There are other criticisms of our motivations that I recognize as possibilities…increase of wealth is most definitely not one of them.

As far as being influenced by donations from the Church (I may be out of date, but I am aware of a one time donation tied to the Church, a foundation that has received some funding iirc), why even bother to go there?  From the beginning we have always attested being loyal to the Church, we have never claimed to be unbiased.  We would be doing the same thing whether they pay us or not (which they don’t).  We actually believe in what we are putting out.  Even when it comes to details, I might say things slightly different at times than another FAIR member if I was presenting something as FAIR members have a lot of different opinions and a wide range of peripheral beliefs, but I have never had another FAIR member tell me I was wrong or that my opinion needed to change nor has anyone sent out a correction letter for the numerous answers I have provided to those who write to FAIR for answers.

Edited August 1, 2025 by Calm

[bluebell]

It seems like all of this boils down to the idea that when we don't like someone or the message that someone is sharing, our biases automatically look for a reason to dismiss them.  We all do it. 

The arguments don't have to make sense, they just have to help us feel justified in not liking them, or trusting them, or agreeing with them.  My mom once told me, laughing, about how when she was inactive and feeling hostile towards the church she used basketball courts in the church as one way to validate her feelings.  She told me she would say stuff like "can you imagine an actual Christian church having a basketball court??!" or that she would "never go to a church that that cared that much about sports", etc.  She makes fun of herself now for once using those arguments in sincerity but at the time, they seemed very legitimate to her.

I think accusations of greed as a way to automatically dismiss what podcasters or book authors are saying without having to deal with it are similar perspectives.  Even if greed is a motive, that will show in the quality of what they are producing and in their own actions, not just in the fact that money is involved.

[Tony uk]

In this day and age, any institution, business, a church, a school, also a persons home, requires some kind of financial income to function. Especially when the overheads include, various forms of media, websites and so on.

[Robert F. Smith]

17 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

.......................... FAIR literally gets tithing money to run their stuff.”

......................

LDS apologists like those at FAIR and Deseret Book get paid. LDS leaders get living stipends, security, travel allowances.

................................

 

16 hours ago, Calm said:

.................................

As far as being influenced by donations from the Church (I may be out of date, but I am aware of a one time donation tied to the Church, a foundation that has received some funding iirc), why even go there?  From the beginning we have always attested being loyalty to the Church, we have never claimed to be unbiased.  We would be doing the same thing whether they pay us or not. ...........................

So, is it a fact that FAIR and other such organizations get tithing money from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints??  If so, how much?

[Pyreaux]

22 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

So, is it a fact that FAIR and other such organizations get tithing money from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints??  If so, how much?

 

17 hours ago, Calm said:

We have very minimal staff, one admin last I heard and then tech people as needed.  They are the only ones getting paid. Not the apologists.

The admin staff person was added a few years ago (I have no time sense, but I am pretty sure two more people took over membership after I did it (no pay) before we finally gritted our teeth and accepted it had to be more consistent help, which was only possibly with a paid position.  No one answering questions through the elist gets paid, we pay for the privilege in fact.

The idea that FAIR members would be influenced by money is laughable.  If we were, it would be to stop being involved because no one is making money by doing this at FAIR.  FAIR is a hobby for us that we pay for, not an income producing side hustle.

Yes, it is wonderful to get donations to pay for necessary equipment and allows us to create content because we can’t just do it with our phones, but money influencing us, please!  That is a lazy criticism.  There are other criticisms of motivations that I recognize as possibilities…increased of wealth is most definitely not one of them.

As far as being influenced by donations from the Church (I may be out of date, but I am aware of a one time donation tied to the Church, a foundation that has received some funding iirc), why even go there?  From the beginning we have always attested being loyalty to the Church, we have never claimed to be unbiased.  We would be doing the same thing whether they pay us or not.  We actually believe in what we are putting out.  Even when it comes to details, I might say things slightly different at times if I was presenting something as FAIR members have a lot of different opinions and a wide range of beliefs, but I have never had another FAIR member tell me I was wrong or my opinion needed to change nor has anyone sent out a correction letter for the numerous answers I have provided to those who write to FAIR for answers.

No, FAIR does not receive tithing donations. The Church maintains that none of the tithing funds are used for external charitable enterprises. It's just something 'they talk about'... a lot... all the time. I don't claim it, but I read it often. To them, it's a fact etched on the back of their eyelids. I don't know what to tell you.

[Calm]

On 7/31/2025 at 10:08 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

So, is it a fact that FAIR and other such organizations get tithing money from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?? 

I have no clear idea where the one time donation that was possibly (being more cautious here because I am relying on memory as it’s one week before the FAIR conference and I avoid asking questions on the list that can be answered elsewhere online because other FAIR volunteers who help out with the conference are over the top busy during this time) indirectly received from the Church came from (added:  first donation was received prior to any funding of MGF by church related organization, second one after some donation, times and amounts someone else who cares more can dig out).  I am not involved in that side of the operation.   

I am relatively certain we got a one time donation directly from the More Good Foundation. Iirc, there are claims it gets some funding from the Church, but iirc it was one of the for profit companies owned by the Church that donated, so it goes back to the same argument on how to define tithing dollars, which was decided in court that such funds were not, iirc.

It was years ago though, so my memory is vague on details.  It was thoroughly discussed on this board, iirc, at least once and likely more than once.  Someone looked at our tax forms and thought they found the smoking gun or something that could tarnish FAIR’s reputation…which is odd, because as I said before we have always proclaimed loyalty to the Church and fully admit our biases may influence our writing, choice of speakers, etc.  We are not a debate society putting up both sides of the argument.  We try hard to keep our facts accurate, but of course our love of the Gospel is going to influence us to give more benefit of the doubt when facts are incomplete (as often happens with history) and draw more positive conclusions on motivations (which are often unstated) than someone who thinks the Church is a fraud and its leaders deceptive.

It was not a huge amount iirc in comparison to our needs.  Too bad we didn’t get more. 😛 

Edited August 1, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

Found a reference; lol, Scott (president of FAIR for those not aware of that) also used “smoking gun”…I will admit I tend to roll my eyes when this donation gets brought up given the amount and I would not be surprised if other FAIR members do as well.

MGF donated to FAIR a few thousand dollars and then several years later LDS Foundation (nontithing) donated to More Good (and may continue to do so for all I know as I don’t track this stuff myself, but pick it up from conversations, probably why memories are vague).

So at that time, FAIR received no tithing dollars and even by the longest stretch possible no money from the Church since funding is not retroactively applied in accounting as far as I am aware.

Edited July 31, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

I have to amend my comments. The board has a 2020 discussion that mentions a $120,000 one time donation from MGF to FAIR that I had forgotten about.  Bluebell*** mentions she thinks it went to hiring a bookkeeper (I think it was on the form).  Sounds about right.  We have been very slowly adding part time staff to take the ‘mechanical’ burden, like tech support, bookstore and membership and other administrative details off the volunteers (though many like members of the FAIR board and officers have to concern themselves with the nitty gritty still).  I will try and remember we have two part timers in administration now (though perhaps our assistant is up to full time now) when I list the paid staff.  I have no clue how much tech support we use.  I assume that varies based on need.

This donation is obviously more substantial than the first, but again not much in comparison to ongoing expenses, imo.  I would personally describe that as helping out rather than supporting (a monthly or yearly check one can rely on is supporting in my view).  

I have no clue how much money over the years MGF received from church affiliated businesses or foundations.  I do not have any issue with the Church contributing to good causes and even contributing to paying personal salaries if a full time job, such as someone running a shelter. Defending the Church is a very good cause in my books, so I would not/do not feel uncomfortable mentioning it if I was/am aware of such.

I do want to make it clear that no one at FAIR is biased in their presentation because of the influence of money, greed or anything in those lines. We have been doing this for 25 years and more, so no one should be anticipating that we are some day going to be pulling in massive grants or donations  that includes FAIR volunteers getting a personal monetary gift come Christmas (only thing we get is a reminder our membership fees—which are used to help offset expenses—are due).  This is an effort of love and faithfulness and even sacrifice by many for those apologists involved.

***https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/73335-fair-mormons-new-youtube-branding-strategy/page/14/#findComment-1210004082

 

Edited August 1, 2025 by Calm