Book of Mormon musical’s new ad campaign

[Notatbm]

On 7/15/2025 at 10:06 AM, bluebell said:

You kind of did though, because the implication of your post is that you can be a child sexual predator, a murderer, rapist, whatever most degenerite thing you can think of, but if you pay your tithing, you get to stay on the earth during the millennium with all the righteous.

my post specifically identified Non-tithe payers. I did not say no one else wouldn’t be burned or not. The scripture is specific as to who WILL be burned and it is those who do not pay tithing. 
 

now will others burn?? Perhaps those who you listed like a child sex predator will burn. I also feel anyone who shields (fail to report to law enforcement) child sex predators from prosecution will burn as well. Anyone who rapes a kid and anyone with knowledge of it who doesn’t turn them in is EQUALLY guilty. Both need to go to the depths of the sea with the millstone hung round their necks. Just like Jesus said. 
 

On 7/15/2025 at 10:06 AM, bluebell said:

According to scripture is is the wicked who will be burned at His second coming.  Will all non tithe payers be considered wicked? No, they won't.  Can a non tithe payer be considered wicked?  Yes, they can.  God will judge.

I agree; however, the scripture is also very clear as to exactly who WILL burn and it is those who don’t pay tithing.. like me. I can still be a “good person” otherwise but non payment of tithing is a guaranteed trip to the stake to be burned or whatever “burning” involves. 

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Notatbm said:

Strange coincidence, but I just visited the latterdaysaints subreddit and this was the first that showed up on my feed. Is this guy in my ward??  Sounds exactly like what our elders quorum was like last time I attended:

“I’m so sad that the overall feeling from the men in EQ is to just go through the motions, check a box, and get through the last hour of church. It feels all too often that the lesson was “prepared” the night before, but most likely during Sacrament meeting. And then the same 3-5 people have comments that derail the lesson. I don’t think it helps that there isn’t a dedicated space either. EQ always seems to be held in an overflow, or random room. It makes me feel like the class isn’t important, and maybe that’s a contributing factor to the mood of the meeting.

I know that I get out of it what I put into it, and I prepare for the lesson, but consistently I feel like I’m wanting meat, but milk is all that is in the menu.

Is anyone else experiencing this? And if so, how are you dealing with it?”

EQ has always been that way for me.  There's really old jokes about how EQ is like that.  I believe High Priests is where crazy discussions used to happen but I guess merging High Priests with Elders has tamped down the enthusiasm for crazy discussions.

[webbles]

1 minute ago, Notatbm said:

I agree; however, the scripture is also very clear as to exactly who WILL burn and it is those who don’t pay tithing.. like me. I can still be a “good person” otherwise but non payment of tithing is a guaranteed trip to the stake to be burned or whatever “burning” involves. 

I've seen you mention that the scripture is clear on who will burn several times but you seem to be misreading the scripture.  It is clear on who will NOT be burned ("he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming").  It is not clear on who WILL be burned.  It doesn't say that those who do not pay WILL be burned.  I believe someone already mentioned that there are other scriptures that say that many non-tithe payers will not be burned.  So not-paying tithing is not an automatic burn card.

Edited July 17, 2025 by webbles

[Notatbm]

1 minute ago, webbles said:

I find it interesting that you find the exposure to info as being detrimental.  To each their own, but I have always loved learning about it.  I learned about the seer stone when I was in high school and absolutely loved it.  I learned about Joseph's polygamy in elementary school and loved it.  I've always known about weird polygamy situations (my personal ancestry has probably the only church approved pioneer sperm donation).  It has always fascinated me and I've enjoyed reading everything I can about it.  Yet, none of it has caused me to have a faith crisis with the church.  I understand that people do have faith crisis because of it but I'd rather have the information easier to find vs having to dig through libraries.  Though, I still sometimes have to dig through libraries because the internet is still missing so much about church history.

I don’t recall saying exposure is detrimental. M pretty sure my position all along is the church is or at least was opposed to it.  I do have a problem being lied to about church history though. 

[webbles]

2 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

I don’t recall saying exposure is detrimental. M pretty sure my position all along is the church is or at least was opposed to it.  I do have a problem being lied to about church history though. 

You said:

Quote

The correlation is the problem. 
think now it is less controlling than it was even ten years ago. The info is out there now and the church has completely lost control of who consumes it. Members like those in my family are kept in line more by fear ( loss of family acceptance, loss of inheritance, shunning etc) than they are by the church itself. 

That seems to indicate that the members in your family who consumed the material are no longer believers but just playing along because of fear.

I also don't believe the church is opposed to people learning about information.  Are there some leaders who are?  Yes.  But not all.  So it depends on when and where you are.  At sometimes in the past, it wasn't a problem.  At other times it was.  A lot of times, you can find a reason why the church went defensive.  During the Tanner's hey day, the church was pretty defensive and I, personally, feel that was just a reaction to them (and other outside scholars).  But you can find inside scholars who got access to a lot of stuff that they wouldn't have let the Tanner's see (for example, the early First Vision document).

[Notatbm]

32 minutes ago, webbles said:

You said:

That seems to indicate that the members in your family who consumed the material are no longer believers but just playing along because of fear.

I also don't believe the church is opposed to people learning about information.  Are there some leaders who are?  Yes.  But not all.  So it depends on when and where you are.  At sometimes in the past, it wasn't a problem.  At other times it was.  A lot of times, you can find a reason why the church went defensive.  During the Tanner's hey day, the church was pretty defensive and I, personally, feel that was just a reaction to them (and other outside scholars).  But you can find inside scholars who got access to a lot of stuff that they wouldn't have let the Tanner's see (for example, the early First Vision document).

Yes-the church is opposed to the exposure. 
 

explain why the gospel topics essays have not been presented to the membership essay by essay to explain what they mean, why the church told us otherwise and when they knew the truth? 
 

explain why the Nauvoo expositor hasn’t been gone over in detail to illustrate each “viscious lie “ and why it isn’t true

explain why polygamy isn’t taught as an enduring doctrine of then church. What women should expect in the celestial kingdoms when their husbands practice it. What are their two choices regarding their participation in polygamy (sustain their husband or be destroyed)

thats just a few topics. I’m not opposed to discussing them at church, the church is. I am opposed to suppressing information. Correlation has made it so nothing but the watered down milk can be taught. 
 

there is no safe space at church to hold class on any of these topics. Why? Because it exposes the fact the dominant narrative of church history is not true. Just like Richard bushman said. He said that publicly and if he had the nerve to say that to people in a fireside-well that says a lot. Maybe his inner monologue stepped out into public but he did say it. 
 

the tanners were right about a lot of things,  Esp the salamander letter . Elder 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2025 by Notatbm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Notatbm said:

was merely stating the advertiser isn’t off the mark.

How can they be not be off the mark if hell, the focus of the ad, is not described with literal flames in LDS theology?  How is the second coming relevant to hell (since any burning if it is literal occurs prior to hell)?  Using irrelevant evidence does not establish an argument.

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

Anyone who rapes a kid and anyone with knowledge of it who doesn’t turn them in is EQUALLY guilty.

So victims who don’t want a family member, friend or whoever to be arrested for whatever are equally guilty of their own abuse/rape?

Edited July 17, 2025 by Calm

[Notatbm]

41 minutes ago, webbles said:

EQ has always been that way for me.  There's really old jokes about how EQ is like that.  I believe High Priests is where crazy discussions used to happen but I guess merging High Priests with Elders has tamped down the enthusiasm for crazy discussions.

It is the biggest waste of time. I can’t count how many discussions were had on freaking video games of all things and then just other bs like byu sports. When there was something of substance the same ole three or four high priests filibuster the balance of the meeting with their mckonkie nonsense. And these guys keep stopping by to invite me to play basketball or whatever. Yea no 

[ZealouslyStriving]

9 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

What are their two choices regarding their participation in polygamy (sustain their husband or be destroyed)

Me thinks you need to reread Doctrine and Covenants 132 a little slower and with more focus.

Perhaps you could post the verses in question and we could review them?

[Notatbm]

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

So victims who don’t want a family member, friend or whoever to be arrested for whatever are equally guilty of their own abuse/rape?

That’s a victims choice..  I didn’t think a victim would want to keep being raped or whatever so yea I’ll give you that.  Didn’t think of that. The rest of em need to drown. Sorry but I have no empathy for anyone who rapes kids or protects those who do. 
 

I was a passerby witness to a juvenile rape victim being discovered in a parking lot stabbed multiple times and naked. She was under ten years old and barely alive. The suspect had been captured by other people and was laughing while cops were on their way.  To this day I definitely could kill that guy. It’s been thirty years or so and im never gonna forget that scene. So yea i have zero empathy for child rapists or those who shield them. 

Edited July 17, 2025 by Notatbm

[Notatbm]

3 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Me thinks you need to reread Doctrine and Covenants 132 a little slower and with more focus.

Perhaps you could post the verses in question and we could review them?

You can start a new thread if you like . 

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

explain why the gospel topics essays have not been presented to the membership essay by essay to explain what they mean

They are being taught to seminary and institute kids.  My memory is this has been happening for a couple of years.  I think it’s been discussed here, but it’s possible I first learned of it when talking with a friend who teaches institute.

Eventually those exposed to the essays in class will be most members.  Converts who were older when they joined may not be intentionally exposed, but since they will be in classes with members who did learn about the essays when they were younger, chances are the info will come up in discussions since it will be seen as standard knowledge.

See here for an example:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-seminary-teacher-manual-2025/453-doctrine-and-covenants-132-1-2-34-66?lang=eng

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

You can start a new thread if you like . 

You're the one that made the claim- back it up.

[Notatbm]

25 minutes ago, Calm said:

They are being taught to seminary and institute kids.  My memory is this has been happening for a couple of years.  I think it’s been discussed here, but it’s possible I first learned of it when talking with a friend who teaches institute.

Eventually those exposed to the essays in class will be most members.  Converts who were older when they joined may not be intentionally exposed, but since they will be in classes with members who did learn about the essays when they were younger, chances are the info will come up in discussions since it will be seen as standard knowledge.

See here for an example:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-seminary-teacher-manual-2025/453-doctrine-and-covenants-132-1-2-34-66?lang=eng

They have been out since 2014. If they wanted to discuss them with the membership at large in Sunday school or whatever they have had plenty of time. 

Edited July 17, 2025 by Notatbm

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

So yea i have zero empathy for child rapists or those who shield them. 

I don’t have any either, but I believe in most cases a victim who is not a minor should have the right to not give evidence if they so choose.  It is one way to give them some sense of control in their lives.  

With minors, situations can be difficult.  It is not always better or even safer to put victims in foster care.  We need to do better with foster care before making it the automatic solution in cases of child abuse, imo.  Children need to be evaluated to see if separation from both parents will add more significant trauma or not (I believe there should be no unsupervised contact with their abuser, but if the other parent knew and did nothing, it needs to be evaluated why and if harm will continue in some way).  I am fine with supervision always being required with suspected abuse, not so much isolation of child from parents (a close relative as a toddler was taken away from his parents when they took him into the hospital because of weird bruising, it later came out it was the babysitter hitting him with a hairbrush when he cried; it is likely the separation from any familiar person while the investigation took place contributed more to his severe anxiety and depression as a child and youth and I view it as unnecessary as the parents could have been allowed to stay with him at least part of the time under supervision rather than him thinking they had abandoned him).

[Notatbm]

Deleted

Edited July 17, 2025 by Notatbm

[Notatbm]

50 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

You're the one that made the claim- back it up.

Here you go. I’m not discussing it here as I’m not going to derail the whole “hell” issue. Start your own if you like: 

D&C132 

64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Notatbm said:

I’m not discussing it here as I’m not going to derail the whole “hell” issue.

You have already done that, lol.

I started the thread and in this case don’t mind derails.

[Notatbm]

28 minutes ago, Calm said:

You have already done that, lol.

I started the thread and in this case don’t mind derails.

Suit yourself.. like I said I’m not discussing the polygamy thing further on this thread. I provided the source he demanded. Thanks tho

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Notatbm said:

my post specifically identified Non-tithe payers. I did not say no one else wouldn’t be burned or not. The scripture is specific as to who WILL be burned and it is those who do not pay tithing. 
 

now will others burn?? Perhaps those who you listed like a child sex predator will burn. I also feel anyone who shields (fail to report to law enforcement) child sex predators from prosecution will burn as well. Anyone who rapes a kid and anyone with knowledge of it who doesn’t turn them in is EQUALLY guilty. Both need to go to the depths of the sea with the millstone hung round their necks. Just like Jesus said. 
 

I agree; however, the scripture is also very clear as to exactly who WILL burn and it is those who don’t pay tithing.. like me. I can still be a “good person” otherwise but non payment of tithing is a guaranteed trip to the stake to be burned or whatever “burning” involves. 

I've explained my point of view and you've explained yours.  Probably best to agree to disagree at this point.

[webbles]

3 hours ago, Notatbm said:

Yes-the church is opposed to the exposure. 
 

explain why the gospel topics essays have not been presented to the membership essay by essay to explain what they mean, why the church told us otherwise and when they knew the truth? 
 

explain why the Nauvoo expositor hasn’t been gone over in detail to illustrate each “viscious lie “ and why it isn’t true

explain why polygamy isn’t taught as an enduring doctrine of then church. What women should expect in the celestial kingdoms when their husbands practice it. What are their two choices regarding their participation in polygamy (sustain their husband or be destroyed)

thats just a few topics. I’m not opposed to discussing them at church, the church is. I am opposed to suppressing information. Correlation has made it so nothing but the watered down milk can be taught. 
 

there is no safe space at church to hold class on any of these topics. Why? Because it exposes the fact the dominant narrative of church history is not true. Just like Richard bushman said. He said that publicly and if he had the nerve to say that to people in a fireside-well that says a lot. Maybe his inner monologue stepped out into public but he did say it. 
 

the tanners were right about a lot of things,  Esp the salamander letter . Elder 

I've been to firesides that discussed these topics.  I've been to fifth Sunday meetings that discussed this.  I've been to Sunday School classes that brought up the essays.  I've read plenty of books published by the church and distributed by church owned organizations that talk about these.

Maybe your ward and stake is scared to discuss these things, but the church, as a whole, is not.  And if you want them to be discussed in your church meetings, talk to your bishop, elder's quorum president, or sunday school president.

[Notatbm]

2 minutes ago, webbles said:

I've been to firesides that discussed these topics.  I've been to fifth Sunday meetings that discussed this.  I've been to Sunday School classes that brought up the essays.  I've read plenty of books published by the church and distributed by church owned organizations that talk about these.

Maybe your ward and stake is scared to discuss these things, but the church, as a whole, is not.  And if you want them to be discussed in your church meetings, talk to your bishop, elder's quorum president, or sunday school president.

I have been in four wards and two different stakes with three different stake presidents ( prob five or six bishops) since the essays  came out. To my knowledge there has been exactly one mention of the essays over the pulpit and it was my bishop announcing they had been released and to read them with caution. He and his family left the church about five years ago.  Don’t know why. That incident aside-I have never heard any discussion of them. I do know that my previous bishop had never heard of them ( three years ago) and I have no idea what he did with that. No fifth Sunday discussions, no fireside’s nada. 
 

Like I said-if the church wanted all of us to know about them and learn what they are about, they would make it happen. Steven snow has admitted… well I’ll let him explain. 
 

https://clyp.it/gq0cdhf1

 

Steven snow in case you don’t know who he is:  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/leader/steven-e-snow?lang=eng

[webbles]

16 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

I have been in four wards and two different stakes with three different stake presidents ( prob five or six bishops) since the essays  came out. To my knowledge there has been exactly one mention of the essays over the pulpit and it was my bishop announcing they had been released and to read them with caution. He and his family left the church about five years ago.  Don’t know why. That incident aside-I have never heard any discussion of them. I do know that my previous bishop had never heard of them ( three years ago) and I have no idea what he did with that. No fifth Sunday discussions, no fireside’s nada. 
 

Like I said-if the church wanted all of us to know about them and learn what they are about, they would make it happen. Steven snow has admitted… well I’ll let him explain. 
 

https://clyp.it/gq0cdhf1

 

Steven snow in case you don’t know who he is:  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/leader/steven-e-snow?lang=eng

You should talk to your bishop and ask that it is discussed.  Maybe he'll do it or not.  But the church, as an organization, is not the one that is hiding it.

Elder Snow admitted that they did a soft rollout to try and contain any bad press.  That was back in 2014.  To say that the soft rollout in 2014 is an attempt to hide them in 2025 sounds silly to me.  The church published them, they are easily found.  They are definitely valid material to talk about in church lessons where they fit the lesson.  I, personally, didn't enjoy the lessons on them in the classes I attended because a 50 minute lesson can not do a deep dive into the topic.  I much rather prefer really learning about the stuff vs just getting a high level picture.  For me, the articles were a bit of a non-issue because they weren't anything new besides having an easily accessible church approved place that I could point to if needed (I've never needed to do that so they really didn't do anything for me).

[InCognitus]

5 hours ago, Notatbm said:

explain why the gospel topics essays have not been presented to the membership essay by essay to explain what they mean

We have had priesthood quorum lessons on some of the gospel topics essays.  We were encouraged to do that by our bishop at the time when the essays were first put out.

And in our recent combined adult and youth 5th Sunday lesson (at the end of June) which was on the topic of family history and record keeping, we discussed why one person's boring event based journal (from a farmer in southern Utah) was even important and helpful for documenting the history of the Mountain Meadows Massacre.  (That was fun).  And nobody in the class seemed to be clueless on what that was all about.