Shortened Missions for Athletes?

[ZealouslyStriving]

Sooooo... BYJew didn't age well. Am I right or am I right? 

[Notatbm]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

The person who gets to decide on whether he comes home early is the mission president. 
 

Why should BYU care about whether he returned early or not if the mission president approved it.  That is who gets to make the decision.  Because a mission president did this for a player at USC, it means that BYU isn't a factor in whether he comes home early or not.  It is between him and his mission president. 

I don't think BYU should ever reject a returned missionary who was released by his mission president.  That would be a really bad.

In 2ish years, we should definitely revisit this.  I bet that he will serve between 17 and 20 months.  Earlier than 17 months makes no logistical sense and I don't see him wanting to do less than what his brother did.  If he does more than 20 months, then he would have a red shirt year that he could still use but I don't know if that is worth it vs being on the practice squad.  BYU might prefer him to do the full 24 months because of the logistics, though.

* you allow the mission president a bit too much power. If the kid who went to usc wasn’t released by the MP he could simply just leave ( without his MPs approval) unless he is a hostage. Are missionaries hostages? Are they imprisoned? 
 

* Let’s say the MP doesn’t “allow” this kid in question to leave early so he can play at BYU. Kid throws a fit and parents come get him and he splits his mission. Do you think the MP is gonna just blow it off or make sure the kids stake pres and probably BYU know he was disrespecting and disobeying the closest thing to a general authority the church has?

*BYU is absolutely going to care if the player got into a disrespectful tiff with a mission president. The church would prob not accept him at the Y. That is what BYU has to do with things. It is the church. Heck they control kids down to shaving and how long their hair is. They definitely going to care if last month some entitled freshman BYU QB to be ran off from his mission waving the middle finger at the MPs fake authority. 

 Don’t think that will happen as likely a deal will have been made before hand or the ink is drying on it as we speak. 
 

* yes we will see. Personally i hope he does the whole two years just like he is supposed to. If he doesn’t want to, there are plenty of schools who would kill to have him
 

 

Edited July 2, 2025 by Notatbm

[Calm]

3 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Sooooo... BYJew didn't age well. Am I right or am I right? 

Given the lawsuit being dismissed (settled?), I wonder what has happened to his sponsorship.  And it looks like his nickname (which I was unaware of) will shortly be obsolete (webbles mentioned this earlier, but it didn’t registered with me given I am not interested in football) 

https://kslsports.com/ncaa/byu-football/jake-retzlaff-civil-dismiss/551407

https://www.sportico.com/leagues/college-sports/2024/jake-retzlaff-byjew-trademark-nickname-byu-1234819892/#:~:text=December 10%2C 2024 8:26pm,has endorsed the Chabad's shirts.)

https://kslsports.com/ncaa/byu-football/jake-retzlaff-report/548677

I don’t understand.  If he graduated, how could he continue to play for BYU?

Quote

Retzlaff graduated from Brigham Young University in April, majoring in Exercise and Wellness.

 

Edited July 2, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

I wonder if there will be a backlash or given the lawsuit, it will be accepted as expected and no big deal given the previous emotional investment into BYU by some in the Jewish community.

Quote

The announcement of the NIL agreement came last week.

"We are so proud to welcome Jake officially into the Manischewitz family this holiday season," said Shani Seidman, CMO of Kayco, parent company of Manischewitz, in a statement. "He is such an inspiration, and we are honored to support his exciting football career and dream. This partnership represents everything the brand aspires to be — celebrating our heritage and bringing awareness to Jewish food and excellence."

Perhaps surprisingly, BYU has been a go-to team to root for among Jewish football fans this season.

Levine, for instance, has never had a college football team to cheer on. He attended Yeshiva University, a private Orthodox Jewish college in New York City. The school's basketball team produced Ryan Turell, who currently plays in the NBA G-League. But they don't have a football team. So, Levine, and many others, have found themselves rooting for Retzlaff, the only Jewish starting quarterback in all of FBS, and thus, BYU.

“Every element of this has been like a no-brainer,” Levine added.

 

https://www.cllct.com/sports-collectibles/memorabilia/byu-qb-jake-retzlaff-celebrating-jewish-pride-in-deal-with-manischewitz

What would be the typical reaction of a college with the lawsuit dropped?  Since at this point, Retzlaff’s claim it was consensual is no longer being legally challenged, but is out there in public awareness.  I assume the vast majority of colleges don’t have an honor code these days that forbids premarital sex.

Apparently he is headed to Baylor.

Edited July 2, 2025 by Calm

[Benjamin McGuire]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

I don’t understand.  If he graduated, how could he continue to play for BYU?

College athletics (especially football) allow for 4 years of eligibility over 5 years of college enrollment. Someone can receive a degree and as long as they meet very minimal requirements, they will still be able to play their sport as long as they have years of eligibility remaining. In the first article linked above, you can see this label: "Retzlaff, the redshirt senior signal caller from Corona, California". A red-shirt senior means that he has four years of college enrollment in which he was actively playing for three of them. This means that he has one year of playing eligibility left. He could enroll in a class or two at a new school to meet eligibility requirements - and since he has only one year of eligibility left, and since his grades at the new university won't matter for graduation, he can effectively ignore the classes ...

[webbles]

14 hours ago, Notatbm said:

* you allow the mission president a bit too much power. If the kid who went to usc wasn’t released by the MP he could simply just leave ( without his MPs approval) unless he is a hostage. Are missionaries hostages? Are they imprisoned? 
 

* Let’s say the MP doesn’t “allow” this kid in question to leave early so he can play at BYU. Kid throws a fit and parents come get him and he splits his mission. Do you think the MP is gonna just blow it off or make sure the kids stake pres and probably BYU know he was disrespecting and disobeying the closest thing to a general authority the church has?

*BYU is absolutely going to care if the player got into a disrespectful tiff with a mission president. The church would prob not accept him at the Y. That is what BYU has to do with things. It is the church. Heck they control kids down to shaving and how long their hair is. They definitely going to care if last month some entitled freshman BYU QB to be ran off from his mission waving the middle finger at the MPs fake authority. 

 Don’t think that will happen as likely a deal will have been made before hand or the ink is drying on it as we speak. 
 

* yes we will see. Personally i hope he does the whole two years just like he is supposed to. If he doesn’t want to, there are plenty of schools who would kill to have him
 

 

 

Ok, so if the mission president allows Ryder to go home early, then would you still want BYU to deny him?  I 100% agree that if the mission president doesn't allow Ryder to go home early and he still does, BYU should not accept him.

I also don't believe this was discussed in any deal.  Oregon would through a massive fit.  Any interaction between BYU and missionaries is heavily scrutinized because of the potential conflict.  There have been missionaries who flipped from a different school to BYU while on their mission and investigations were done.  BYU is really, really careful around this.  So, for BYU to make a deal with Ryder to let him come home early is extremely unlikely.  Even a "wink, wink" kind of deal would be problematic.  Oregon would bring it up as soon as they hear anything about it.  Ryder will have to discuss his plans with his mission president who can NOT be influenced by BYU so if the mission president says no to an early release, then either Ryder goes somewhere else or he stays on his mission.

[Notatbm]

3 hours ago, webbles said:

 

Ok, so if the mission president allows Ryder to go home early, then would you still want BYU to deny him?  

I never said that.

[Notatbm]

On 7/1/2025 at 9:32 AM, let’s roll said:

Having worked on the Service Missionary program in one Area of the Church in concert with Church HQ, my experience is that the Program is not as rigid as you assume.  Priesthood leaders have discretion to utilize and adapt the program as directed by the Spirit.  If this young man went to his Bishop and Stake President and said he would like to serve the Lord and the young men and women of his Area via a one year (or even 6 month) service mission facilitating emotional resilience and goal setting discussions in EFYs, Seminary and Institutes and Ward and Stake Firesides, using his testimony and personal experiences as a highly motivated and accomplished young man who has learned from navigating obstacles, it’s not hard to see why Priesthood leaders would be enthusiastic about facilitating that mission.

Why don’t you post some examples of missionaries who had special programs designed for them. What was the missionaries reason they couldn’t serve a regular mission (proselytizing) and what their special program was. Im looking for the type of mission designed to accommodate sports careers or other career aspirations. We aren’t talking about disabled kids or kids with huge train wrecks at home they are dealing with here. I’m talking about otherwise physically and mentally fit kids who can serve full time proselytizing missions yet somehow they need a special accommodation for whatever reason.

[webbles]

2 hours ago, Notatbm said:

I never said that.

It sure sounded like you said that.  You had said this about a day ago:

23 hours ago, Notatbm said:

I am saying byu has the choice here to make a special exemption from missionary service or a full mission. BYU has the choice. If a kid like this or his brother quit a mission to play for a college there isn’t a school out there who would care if he quit his mission and it isn’t an issue. The issue is BYU admits students based on an ecclesiastical endorsement. Just recently quitting your mission just to play sports should prompt BYU to tell him to finish his mission first ( just like pretty much everyone else is told) and not accept him until he does. That is what they should do if this happens. He will probably get a pass though. We will see. If he does all two years or some semblance of that so be it. If he quits at about the 1 year mark then this controversy will raise its ugly head. Remember the church feels serving a full time mission is the best thing you can ever do. 
 

the heathen schools don’t care about the Mormons or their missions. BYU should given our prophet just stood up and told the world a full time mission for male members is not optional. We know what the definition of a full time mission is for a healthy kid..  two years.

If byu doesn’t care , accepts the kid who just quit his mission t play sports then the church sets the precedence that missions are not only totally optional, but you should quit any time you like for any reason. I’m thinking that is not the message they want to send. We will see what happens. 

 

I guess after re-reading it, you are talking about quitting without the mission presidents approval.  But my first reading of it gave me the understanding that you don't think BYU should ever accept Ryder if he left early, even if the mission president approved it.

I was never talking about quitting without mission president approval.  I'm assuming that he gets approval to end early and he isn't just leaving.  His brother got approval so I expect Ryder would also get approval.

I guess we are in agreement, then.  We both agree that if he leaves his mission without approval from his mission president, then BYU shouldn't accept him.  And if he does leave with his mission president's approval, than there is no problem with BYU accepting him.  He isn't getting any special treatment from BYU or from the church.  It would be solely on his mission president to decide if he gets to go home early.

[let’s roll]

On 7/1/2025 at 4:39 PM, Notatbm said:

Why don’t you post some examples of missionaries who had special programs designed for them… you know to accommodate sports careers or other career aspirations. We aren’t talking about disabled kids or kids with huge train wrecks at home they are dealing with here. I’m talking about otherwise physically and mentally fit kids who can serve full time proselytizing missions yet somehow they need a special accommodation for whatever reason. 

To what end?  So you can continue to misrepresent and mock things that are sacred to me?  No thanks.  

[Notatbm]

24 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

To what end?  So you can continue to misrepresent and mock things that are sacred to me?  No thanks.  

Nope you said the church HQ was making  special accommodations for some missionaries who were otherwise fit for a proselytizing mission but for some reason were not doing that. You said you worked in that area with church HQ. I figured you’d be able to share a couple examples of the specially designed missions for missionaries who were not disabled, had some kind of other crazy setback in life or personal situations. You  know -kids like Ryder here who needs to get back to play football.
 

by the example you gave about the possible EFY situation (I do not know if that was real or just an example of a possible accommodation) I figured you didn’t just pull that idea out of a hat. Did it happen ? If so let’s hear his story and why he was excused from door knocking. Since he was a motivational speaker or whatever at EFY ( if this happened) what is his name? Should be pretty public if he was giving talks to youth about emotional resilience or whatever. 
 

Look- you put that out there so you should back it up. I’m prob not the only one who would like to see examples. I think it would be great if kids could custom build their own mission if they don’t want to serve the standard two years knocking on doors. 
 

I might have gone on a mission myself if I had the choice of where to go, what I was going to do and for how long. This could be a game changer for some kids. 

Edited July 3, 2025 by Notatbm

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Notatbm said:

I figured you’d be able to share a couple examples of the specially designed missions for missionaries who were not disabled, had some kind of other crazy setback in life or personal situations. You  know -kids like Ryder here who needs to get back to play football.

Since he shouldn’t give out other people’s names or info, he would not be able to prove it. So would you even believe him if he did or just push for more details saying he hasn’t shown it’s for real yet?

[Notatbm]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Since he shouldn’t give out other people’s names or info, he would not be able to prove it. So would you even believe him if he did or just push for more details saying he hasn’t shown it’s for real yet?

Whatever he says is going on in that mission with otherwise healthy kids capable of proselytizing likely isnt happening. He doesn’t have to give names.  Just thought if it was a church program and these guys or maybe just one guy is a motivational speaker at EFY perhaps there’d be a liahona article or something.  
 

Anyway- he did put it out there. I don’t see what the harm would be in providing a couple examples. 

[CV75]

Serving in higher

and holier

ways.

[let’s roll]

22 hours ago, Notatbm said:

Nope you said the church HQ was making  special accommodations for some missionaries who were otherwise fit for a proselytizing mission but for some reason were not doing that. You said you worked in that area with church HQ. I figured you’d be able to share a couple examples of the specially designed missions for missionaries who were not disabled, had some kind of other crazy setback in life or personal situations. You  know -kids like Ryder here who needs to get back to play football.
 

by the example you gave about the possible EFY situation (I do not know if that was real or just an example of a possible accommodation) I figured you didn’t just pull that idea out of a hat. Did it happen ? If so let’s hear his story and why he was excused from door knocking. Since he was a motivational speaker or whatever at EFY ( if this happened) what is his name? Should be pretty public if he was giving talks to youth about emotional resilience or whatever. 
 

Look- you put that out there so you should back it up. I’m prob not the only one who would like to see examples. I think it would be great if kids could custom build their own mission if they don’t want to serve the standard two years knocking on doors. 
 

I might have gone on a mission myself if I had the choice of where to go, what I was going to do and for how long. This could be a game changer for some kids. 

Retract your misrepresentations and apologize to the throngs of converts who give thanks to God for the missionaries who brought them Gospel truths and invited them to draw closer to their Heavenly Father and their Savior.  If you choose to do that I will consider the depth, breadth and sincerity of your words and decide if I believe you are sincere in your desire to know more or just looking for more things to mock and criticize.

[Notatbm]

2 hours ago, let’s roll said:

Retract your misrepresentations and apologize to the throngs of converts who give thanks to God for the missionaries who brought them Gospel truths and invited them to draw closer to their Heavenly Father and their Savior.  If you choose to do that I will consider the depth, breadth and sincerity of your words and decide if I believe you are sincere in your desire to know more or just looking for more things to mock and criticize.

There are no throngs of people joining the church. Of the ones who do join, most bail on the program right away. Retention is terrible because the missionary program fails to educate them on what the deal really is. All the church worries about is getting people to a couple sacrament meetings and dunking them. It has always been that way. Baseball baptisms come to mind. Nope not going to apologize for truth telling. 
 

Go ahead and not tell us about the special programs for healthy missionaries who do not want to serve regular missions. 
 

you know what.. on edit I am frankly a bit surprised you wouldn’t share with everyone here what the special program is? How does it work? Who gets special consideration? I mean we know that missionaries with disabilities and other issues that keep them from serving a proselytizing mission get some special accommodations. With what you are talking about- otherwise healthy missionaries with no real baggage are getting to do special things. How does someone get into that program and why would you not share that with the entire Mddb forum? Some stake pres or bishop or parent with a kid who wont go on a mission may actually go if they knew they could structure a mission just for them and whatever gifts or great stories they have. Wouldn’t you rather see a kid go one one of these special missions as opposed to not going at all because no one knew they could get a deal like this?
 

Go ahead and hold out on the whole board just so you don’t have to cast your pearls before even just one swine. 

Edited July 4, 2025 by Notatbm

[ZealouslyStriving]

5 hours ago, let’s roll said:

Retract your misrepresentations and apologize to the throngs of converts who give thanks to God for the missionaries who brought them Gospel truths and invited them to draw closer to their Heavenly Father and their Savior.  If you choose to do that I will consider the depth, breadth and sincerity of your words and decide if I believe you are sincere in your desire to know more or just looking for more things to mock and criticize.

Not to defend notatbm, but I find it interesting that some of you are so put off with his posting style, when, to me, there is no discernible difference between his posts and the posts of a few very regular posters. Posters who have been defended (not necessarily by you) when called out for the bitterness of their tone. To me he fits in just fine with the environment which has been allowed to evolve here.

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 hours ago, Notatbm said:

Retention is terrible because the missionary program fails to educate them on what the deal really is.

Retention is terrible mostly because people realize what a time commitment it is and it's hard to adjust- it's easier to slip back in to habitual routines. It has little to do with learning the "real truth about the evil Mormon cult".

[Notatbm]

5 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Retention is terrible mostly because people realize what a time commitment it is and it's hard to adjust- it's easier to slip back in to habitual routines. It has little to do with learning the "real truth about the evil Mormon cult".

I wouldn’t use the “c” word myself though I agree with ur statement. Also we baptize so quickly investigators don’t really know what they are getting into. I think it’s catholic s who require about a year of education and other stuff before they will be allowed to become a member. There is so much verifiable controversy in Mormonism that is off putting to lifelong members who stayed loyal for decades and they even leave when they find out. The essays come to mind as one example. I think investigators need a good crash course in all this stuff instead of getting ambushed in elders quorum or something with polygamy, race /priesthood etc.

 

One of my sons served in latin America on his mission less than five years ago. He went back with his wife for vacation and went to an area they had lots of success in. He served in that area for nearly a year. He said he didn’t recognize a single person in the ward except the bishop. The bishop had actually been removed as the bishop while he was there for stealing tithing. He is the bishop again. Yea so the ward has completely rotated members with a completely new batch of converts. That particular mission area has a couple thousand members on the books but only about thirty show up with any regularity at all. He said that was fairly common while he served there too. He was just surprised with the reality of none of the people he baptized were even around. 
 

oh and thx for defending my honor in your other post. 

Edited July 4, 2025 by Notatbm

[Notatbm]

11 hours ago, let’s roll said:

Retract your misrepresentations and apologize to the throngs of converts who give thanks to God for the missionaries who brought them Gospel truths and invited them to draw closer to their Heavenly Father and their Savior.  If you choose to do that I will consider the depth, breadth and sincerity of your words and decide if I believe you are sincere in your desire to know more or just looking for more things to mock and criticize.

I will retract part of my statement about the “throngs”

it looks as if 107 converts were baptized (Mormon church) in New Guinea a couple weeks ago. That is a lot. 107 

 Also found another group of baptisms from April 28th, 2025. Another 107 people who accepted Christ were baptized. This was at another church though. What are the odds two churches would have exactly 107 baptisms just a few months apart? 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DJASiZsP_zy/?igsh=bjFiamh5Ym0waWg2

pretty cool eh

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, Notatbm said:

oh and thx for defending my honor in your other post. 

💪🏻😘

Seriously though, you actually bring up some good points between the cynicism. 

[Notatbm]

3 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

💪🏻😘

Seriously though, you actually bring up some good points between the cynicism. 

Thanks-just being real lol. I have brought up a few things in gospel doctrine that landed me in meetings with the bishop. All true and on the church website, but some can’t handle it. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

21 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

Thanks-just being real lol. I have brought up a few things in gospel doctrine that landed me in meetings with the bishop. All true and on the church website, but some can’t handle it. 

I myself am actually kind of a fan of some Pioneer Era teachings, so I have to occasionally try to keep my mouth shut and my face from contorting too much in class sometimes. So we may have similar difficulties, but for different reasons.

[webbles]

13 hours ago, Notatbm said:

There are no throngs of people joining the church. Of the ones who do join, most bail on the program right away. Retention is terrible because the missionary program fails to educate them on what the deal really is. All the church worries about is getting people to a couple sacrament meetings and dunking them. It has always been that way. Baseball baptisms come to mind. Nope not going to apologize for truth telling. 

This is why I like the bigger push for members to do the initial work so missionaries are just giving the basic lessons.  I would hope that converts who come through a member will have more understanding than one who only knows about the church through missionary interaction.

I do disagree with your "no throngs of people joining the church".  The church is growing fairly quickly (not what it used to do) and this is including those that leave.  There are areas of the world where the church is growing impressively and retaining the converts.  If you haven't seen https://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/, I'd recommend reading it if you are curious about how well the church is growing or shrinking.  It does statistics of the church growth.  It looks at individual areas as well as the overall numbers.

[Notatbm]

25 minutes ago, webbles said:

This is why I like the bigger push for members to do the initial work so missionaries are just giving the basic lessons.  I would hope that converts who come through a member will have more understanding than one who only knows about the church through missionary interaction.

I do disagree with your "no throngs of people joining the church".  The church is growing fairly quickly (not what it used to do) and this is including those that leave.  There are areas of the world where the church is growing impressively and retaining the converts.  If you haven't seen https://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/, I'd recommend reading it if you are curious about how well the church is growing or shrinking.  It does statistics of the church growth.  It looks at individual areas as well as the overall numbers.

I did see that in 2024 there were about 308k baptisms. That is ~ 1.7% of the current approx church membership of 17.5mil. 1.7%.
at that rate using the rule of 72 it will take about 42 years for the church population to double if convert baptisms are the only increase. As current birth rates in Utah/az esp continue to decrease, children of record numbers will also diminish. That combined with an upcoming huge amount of members dying (boomers) I see the growth rate flip to a negative in less than a decade. My gen (genx) is leaving in fairly large numbers. I grew up in a super TBM stake (mckonkie disciples) and we had huge amounts of youth. Today (40 yrs later) nearly everyone I know is not necessarily out ( resigned) but have not been active in a few decades. Almost all are divorced. I’m in the same boat but still married to sane lucky woman.  My family and I are all inactive at this point. One even served a mission a couple years ago and he is now out. No one is resigning as it just simply doesn’t matter. Among my siblings before both my parents died, we had just a couple cousins out of the church. Since the last grandparent died now there are over twenty ( that’s about 30% ish) who are publicly out, openly lesbian, not going on missions etc. just a few years ago no one dared pull those stunts . Today- yep very few in the family are visibly involved in church stuff. I even have other siblings who are now done. 
 

now that I’m in this circle,  am learning from friends they just stay PIMO and act active s they won’t be disinherited or disappoint their boomer parents. As they die off, the gen x activity will die off as well. Most say they won’t resign because someone will just do the ordinances for them again anyway. Their situation kinda lines up with mine. 
 

anywhoo we will see how growth goes, but Im in the camp of it actually going negative. If the church were to count only members who are active and not people who literally have not been seen in nearly a hundred years , I’m afraid the numbers would be significantly different. I’m in a super heavy populated Mormon area in gilbert. Our ward boundary is very small. Very few move outs, but attendance in our ward has halved if not more since we moved here ten years ago. This is a ward that filled the chapel, overflow and into the gym. Now we don’t even come close to filling the chapel. For reference our ward boundary isn’t even 1/2 by 1/2 mile. No one has really moved out- people just stopped coming. 

I have not really looked into it but I thought the church reduced ward and stake numbers requirements so that may be a factor in sudden stake and ward growth.