The Messiah ben Yosef and Joseph Smith

[Pyreaux]

I wanted to post more topics since the cyber-attack, but this one took me hours. I wanted something fun and interesting, and trying to write it more introductory for the newbies, write disclaimers for the devote, trying to get sources for Calm. Preface: There are sources and interpretations - especially among Latter-day Saint scholars and LDS thinkers that connect Joseph Smith with the role of mythical Messiah ben Joseph in Jewish eschatology. While this was never formal doctrine of the LDS Church, the parallels between have been drawn based on:

Thee Messiah and a messiah

There have always been messiahs - anointed individuals raised up for divine purpose. What made Jesus “the Messiah” to the Christians wasn’t merely that He was anointed, but that He fulfilled the Jewish prophesy of an anointed prophet, priest and/or king after there was no other legitimate anointed kings or high priests left in Israel for 490-years of a Jewish apostasy. The Davidic line had been interrupted. Daniel 9's prophesied time had passed. The temple priesthood had been corrupted (cf. Matthew 23). No reigning Jewish king.

Joseph Smith, similarly, in the aftermath of centuries of Christian fragmentation, apostasy, and political corruption: There was no anointed apostle alive - the line had broken at some point by 1830 (the Nephites weren't in Apostasy until 500 AD, so who knows where else they might have still existed after that). There was no temple, no high priest, no legitimate priesthood. Sure, authority was claimed by succession and institution but no one claimed to be divinely anointed by heavenly messengers with power from on high. With the same inscripturating authority of past Apostles to stand out.

Then came Joseph Smith, Anointed by angelic hands of Peter, James, and John and John the Baptist. Not just a reformer, but a restorer of keys, covenants, temples, and the priesthood line that had been lost. 

Midrash and the Messiah ben Joseph

Midrash are Jewish commentaries. Midrash Tanhuma, Bereshit 1 – Introduces the idea of two messiahs to come, "There shall be two deliverers, one from Joseph and one from Judah." Two anointed dignitaries, who attend the Lord of all the earth (Zech. 4:14). One messiah is a descendant of Joseph, and the second a descendant of David. This son of Joseph, whom all will recognize as the Tzaddik (righteous one) of his generation (of the preexistent figures of the Council of the Tzaddikim, like Adam, Enoch, Noah, etc), will sacrifice his life so that the footsteps of the Messiah might be heard, and the land shall mourn. The second Messiah, the son of David, makes his home in a heavenly palace, where he waits for signs that the time for the coming of the Messiah be David has arrived.

Each Messiah has a separate role. Messiah, the son of David, will redeem the Shekhinah, along with all the holy sparks that were scattered during the six days of Creation. Messiah, the son of Joseph, will redeem the souls of those who fell through sin and transgression, and will free the souls of the righteous that were transmigrated (Jewish reincarnation) into objects and animals, like fish, and the souls of the righteous will be raised up.

There are many odd Rabbinical thoughts, but there are two primary conceptions of these Messiah in Judaism: one, the earthly Messiah, a descendant of Joseph, who is the righteous one of his generation; the other, a descendant of David, who serves as an instrument of salvation. Eventually the first, earthly Messiah, paves the way for the divine one.

Joseph Smith ben Joseph

In LDS theology, Joseph Smith acts as a forerunner to Jesus Christ’s Second Coming (cf. D&C 133; 135:3). Joseph Smith was of the tribe of Ephraim, and restored priesthood authority, temples, and scripture, laying the groundwork for the Second Coming of Christ, often associated with a “Davidic” Messiah figure. The LDS belief in a two-phase restoration and redemption era - Restoration followed by Second Coming - matches the two-messiah model in Midrash Tanhuma.

Joseph Smith received a patriarchal blessing from his father, Joseph Smith Sr., on December 9, 1834, which contains one of the earliest clear statements about his tribal identity. It says: "Thou shalt be called a seer, a translator, a prophet... The Lord thy God hath called thee by name out of the heavens; thou art a descendant of Joseph, through the loins of Ephraim, his son..." (Patriarchal Blessing of Joseph Smith Jr., Dec. 9, 1834)

However, Patriarchal blessings in the early Church often declared individuals as descendants of Ephraim - including Brigham Young, John Taylor, and others. There are two ways to take the claim, and both can be true:

a. Adopted

Much like Ephraim was adopted by Jacob-Israel, Gentile converts to Christianity are being adopted into Israel through baptism and covenant. This “adoption” is a spiritual grafting (Romans 11) and a priesthood-based inheritance.

In the modern LDS church confirms that Gentiles are being adopted into the House of Israel when they accept the gospel. This becomes literalized in patriarchal blessings, where many converts - regardless of ethnic heritage - are declared descendants of Ephraim.

LDS identity as a spiritual people of Ephraim, as the Gentiles adopted into Israel spiritually transmutes them into a tribe, or by the decree of the laws of heaven, getting either serendipitously placed into Ephriam (And why not? Ephriam himself was also adopted by Israel), alternatively there is the idea all Gentiles might actually be remnants of the Kingdom of Ephriam dispersed to other lands, especially the lands of the north.

b. Literal Descent

LDS scriptures (esp. 2 Nephi 29:12–14, D&C 110, 3 Nephi 21) teach that the ten tribes of Israel were scattered among the nations/Gentiles. Many Gentile converts may unknowingly descend from Ephraim, as his tribe was part of the Northern Kingdom that was scattered by Assyria (ca. 721 BC) and dispersed among the Gentiles. These "lost tribes" would be mixed into other nations, so their descendants (remnants) could include many of today's peoples.

Thus, a Gentile convert may: Be spiritually adopted into Ephraim; Or may literally descend from Ephraim, unknown to them until revealed by the Spirit (patriarchal blessing).

The Book of Zohar and Messiah ben Joseph Redeeming the Lost Dead

Passages in the Book of Zohar (Zohar 2:120a and 3:153b) the foundational book of Jewish Kabbalah — describe:

Mashiach ben Yosef as a redeemer of souls, especially those scattered or entrapped in material or sinful states. He is tasked with raising up the fallen sparks (souls) and preparing the world for full redemption. His mission is mystical, preparatory, and soul-oriented, not just political.

Joseph Smith introduced the doctrine of spirit world work, baptism for the dead, and eternal sealing ordinances - all about redeeming souls who were otherwise lost. This “rescuing of souls” aligns a bit with the mystical vision of elevating fallen sparks (nitzotzot) and freeing transmigrated souls (gilgulim). Recovery and elevation of lost souls.

Scroll of Secrets and Messiah ben Joseph's Hidden Works

Megillat Setarim (Scroll of Secrets) is a mystical and somewhat apocryphal Jewish text, quoted and interpreted by medieval Kabbalists. Speaks of hidden roles of the messiahs, especially Mashiach ben Yosef working in secret, preparing the land and people without full recognition. Often viewed as a text revealing the esoteric operations of redemption behind the scenes.

Joseph Smith’s life involved spiritual experiences (First Vision, Moroni visitations) that are not publicly believed and led to rejection. Much of his work Book of Mormon, priesthood restoration, temple endowments occurred in and nearly remains in relative obscurity, fitting the archetype of a hidden messiah. 

LDS temples contain knowledge that is: Restricted to initiates (worthy members), revealed progressively, associated with salvation and exaltation, matching the concealed spiritual themes in Megillat Setarim.

The Talmud and Messiah ben Joseph's Martyrdom

The Talmud interprets a verse of mourning to refer to the death of Messiah ben Joseph, which causes national mourning.

“What is the cause of the mourning [in Zechariah 12:12]? It is the slaying of Messiah the son of Joseph.” (Talmud Bavli, Sukkah 52a)

Joseph Smith was slain by a mob in 1844, despite being both a spiritual leader and national figure to his followers. Presidential candidate.

His death was deeply mourned by early Latter-day Saints. D&C 135 speaks of the “mourning of Zion” and describes him as a martyr whose death sealed his testimony.

He also died a martyr, seen by early Saints as a sacrificial figure whose death furthered God’s plan. D&C 135:3 calls him a man who “sealed his testimony with his blood.” He “prepared the way” for Christ’s second coming through the Restoration.

Vilna Gaon & Kol HaTor and Messiah ben Joseph Building Zion

Rabbi Elijah ben Solomon Zalman (1720–1797), known as the Vilna Gaon (the Genius of Vilna), a towering Lithuanian Jewish scholar, Talmudist, Kabbalist, and mystic. He had strong messianic beliefs rooted in the return to Zion and the active role of human beings in redemption Kol HaTor “The Voice of the Turtledove” is a work attributed to Rabbi Hillel Rivlin of Shklov, a leading disciple of the Vilna Gaon. Allegedly written in the late 18th century, the manuscript was hidden for generations and rediscovered and published in the 20th century.

The book details the Messiah ben Joseph, echoing earlier Midrash and Zohar, Kol HaTor teaches that:

a. Messiah ben Joseph begins the physical and political restoration of Israel (building cities, gathering exiles, preparing the land). While the Messiah ben David completes the spiritual redemption and final victory over evil.

Joseph Smith initiates the Restoration, builds Zion, gathers Israel, and lays the groundwork (literally in the sense of LDS temples and cities) but the final return of Christ (a Davidic Messiah figure) will complete the redemption.

b. Messiah ben Joseph as a Suffering, Sacrificial Redeemer

Kol HaTor explicitly states that Messiah ben Joseph must suffer, and possibly die, in his efforts to redeem Israel. His work is not “miraculous” but earthly, gradual, and political - paving the way for divine intervention.

Joseph Smith’s martyrdom is interpreted by many Saints as sacrificial, necessary to seal his testimony and advance the divine plan (see D&C 135:1–3). His life and death prepared the way for the millennial reign of Christ.

c. Restoration Before Redemption

Kol HaTor emphasizes that redemption begins through natural, political, and preparatory steps, not sudden miracles. It speaks of building up Jerusalem, gathering scattered tribes, and restoring priesthood functions before divine deliverance.

In LDS thought, the Restoration of the priesthood, gathering of Israel, temple work, and missionary labor in LDS theology all precede the Second Coming. The Saints see their work as part of Zion’s physical and spiritual rebuilding.

d. The Role of Ephraim and the North

Kol HaTor ties Ephraim's descendants to the leadership of redemption, not just as symbols but as active builders of Zion. Messiah ben Joseph is associated with the tribe of Ephraim, from the Lost Ten Tribes, believed to dwell in the “lands of the north” (cf. Jeremiah 31:8; D&C 133:26).

Most Saints are declared of the tribe of Ephraim, given a special role in gathering Israel.

D&C 133:26–34 echoes the Kol HaTor vision of northern tribes returning with sacred treasures, led by Ephraim.

The Gospel of John and the Messiah ben Joseph

Jewish leaders ask John the Baptist if he is the Messiah prophesied to come, John says, “When the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, ‘Who art thou?’ And he confessed and denied not, but confessed, ‘I am not the Christ.’ And they asked him, ‘What then? Art thou Elias?'”. He was to come before the great and wrathful day of the Lord. “And he said, ‘I am not.’ ‘Art thou that prophet?'” He answered no. (John 1: 19 -21)

"That Prophet" is thought to be the Messiah Ben Joseph tradition.

=================================================================

Sources: B. Sukkah 52a; Midrash Tanhuma-Yelammedenu, Bereshit 1; Megillat Setarim.

Studies: An Unknown Jewish Sect by Louis Ginzberg, pp. 209-256.

=================================================================

Warning: The existence of the Messiah ben Joseph and its sources are not recognized by the LDS Church

LDS doctrines are based on canonized revelation via living prophets. Kabbalah and Midrash texts are post-biblical, extra-scriptural, and not recognized by LDS leaders as inspired. LDS leadership and apologists often avoids terms like “secret” or “mystical” because they imply gnostic ideas, counter to our assurance of the universal accessibility of the gospel.

The Zoharic idea of raising fallen sparks, gilgulim (reincarnation) are rejected. We reject reincarnation, soul transmigration, and mystical cosmology foreign to the restored gospel. Humans are born of spirits that were born of eternal intelligences and are linear in progression, not recycled fragments of divine essence like in mystical Judaism.

However: I understand there is tension between LDS conservative views that tend to push out untraditional views, to either defend tradition and orthodoxy and make Mormonism ordinary and respectable to the world, which requires not indulging in such bizarre notions as anything but bizarre, no matter how interesting. And the LDS liberal views that tend to flirt with blasphemy and even devilry yet are at least open to even the most unexpected revelations.

So, what do you think? Is there is any merit to the Jewish Messiah Ben Joseph tradition? Or a mistake, a blend of the First and the Second Coming of Christ, hoping for a more warrior-like messiah? I think if Mormonism is true, it overturns much of what the world thinks is true. Symbols and traditions often survive longer than the memory and sources.

Edited June 22, 2025 by Pyreaux

[Stargazer]

I remember Cleon Skousen talking about Messiah ben Joseph. 

[CV75]

15 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

I wanted to post more topics since the cyber-attack, but this one took me hours. I wanted something fun and interesting, and trying to write it more introductory for the newbies, write disclaimers for the devote, trying to get sources for Calm. Preface: There are sources and interpretations - especially among Latter-day Saint scholars and LDS thinkers that connect Joseph Smith with the role of mythical Messiah ben Joseph in Jewish eschatology. While this was never formal doctrine of the LDS Church, the parallels between have been drawn based on:

Thee Messiah and a messiah

There have always been messiahs - anointed individuals raised up for divine purpose. What made Jesus “the Messiah” to the Christians wasn’t merely that He was anointed, but that He fulfilled the Jewish prophesy of an anointed prophet, priest and/or king after there was no other legitimate anointed kings or high priests left in Israel for 490-years of a Jewish apostasy. The Davidic line had been interrupted. Daniel 9's prophesied time had passed. The temple priesthood had been corrupted (cf. Matthew 23). No reigning Jewish king.

Joseph Smith, similarly, in the aftermath of centuries of Christian fragmentation, apostasy, and political corruption: There was no anointed apostle alive - the line had broken at some point by 1830 (the Nephites weren't in Apostasy until 500 AD, so who knows where else they might have still existed after that). There was no temple, no high priest, no legitimate priesthood. Sure, authority was claimed by succession and institution but no one claimed to be divinely anointed by heavenly messengers with power from on high. With the same inscripturating authority of past Apostles to stand out.

Then came Joseph Smith, Anointed by angelic hands of Peter, James, and John and John the Baptist. Not just a reformer, but a restorer of keys, covenants, temples, and the priesthood line that had been lost. 

Midrash and the Messiah ben Joseph

Midrash are Jewish commentaries. Midrash Tanhuma, Bereshit 1 – Introduces the idea of two messiahs to come, "There shall be two deliverers, one from Joseph and one from Judah." Two anointed dignitaries, who attend the Lord of all the earth (Zech. 4:14). One messiah is a descendant of Joseph, and the second a descendant of David. This son of Joseph, whom all will recognize as the Tzaddik (righteous one) of his generation (of the preexistent figures of the Council of the Tzaddikim, like Adam, Enoch, Noah, etc), will sacrifice his life so that the footsteps of the Messiah might be heard, and the land shall mourn. The second Messiah, the son of David, makes his home in a heavenly palace, where he waits for signs that the time for the coming of the Messiah be David has arrived.

Each Messiah has a separate role. Messiah, the son of David, will redeem the Shekhinah, along with all the holy sparks that were scattered during the six days of Creation. Messiah, the son of Joseph, will redeem the souls of those who fell through sin and transgression, and will free the souls of the righteous that were transmigrated (Jewish reincarnation) into objects and animals, like fish, and the souls of the righteous will be raised up.

There are many odd Rabbinical thoughts, but there are two primary conceptions of these Messiah in Judaism: one, the earthly Messiah, a descendant of Joseph, who is the righteous one of his generation; the other, a descendant of David, who serves as an instrument of salvation. Eventually the first, earthly Messiah, paves the way for the divine one.

Joseph Smith ben Joseph

In LDS theology, Joseph Smith acts as a forerunner to Jesus Christ’s Second Coming (cf. D&C 133; 135:3). Joseph Smith was of the tribe of Ephraim, and restored priesthood authority, temples, and scripture, laying the groundwork for the Second Coming of Christ, often associated with a “Davidic” Messiah figure. The LDS belief in a two-phase restoration and redemption era - Restoration followed by Second Coming - matches the two-messiah model in Midrash Tanhuma.

Joseph Smith received a patriarchal blessing from his father, Joseph Smith Sr., on December 9, 1834, which contains one of the earliest clear statements about his tribal identity. It says: "Thou shalt be called a seer, a translator, a prophet... The Lord thy God hath called thee by name out of the heavens; thou art a descendant of Joseph, through the loins of Ephraim, his son..." (Patriarchal Blessing of Joseph Smith Jr., Dec. 9, 1834)

However, Patriarchal blessings in the early Church often declared individuals as descendants of Ephraim - including Brigham Young, John Taylor, and others. There are two ways to take the claim, and both can be true:

a. Adopted

Much like Ephraim was adopted by Jacob-Israel, Gentile converts to Christianity are being adopted into Israel through baptism and covenant. This “adoption” is a spiritual grafting (Romans 11) and a priesthood-based inheritance.

In the modern LDS church confirms that Gentiles are being adopted into the House of Israel when they accept the gospel. This becomes literalized in patriarchal blessings, where many converts - regardless of ethnic heritage - are declared descendants of Ephraim.

LDS identity as a spiritual people of Ephraim, as the Gentiles adopted into Israel spiritually transmutes them into a tribe, or by the decree of the laws of heaven, getting either serendipitously placed into Ephriam (And why not? Ephriam himself was also adopted by Israel), alternatively there is the idea all Gentiles might actually be remnants of the Kingdom of Ephriam dispersed to other lands, especially the lands of the north.

b. Literal Descent

LDS scriptures (esp. 2 Nephi 29:12–14, D&C 110, 3 Nephi 21) teach that the ten tribes of Israel were scattered among the nations/Gentiles. Many Gentile converts may unknowingly descend from Ephraim, as his tribe was part of the Northern Kingdom that was scattered by Assyria (ca. 721 BC) and dispersed among the Gentiles. These "lost tribes" would be mixed into other nations, so their descendants (remnants) could include many of today's peoples.

Thus, a Gentile convert may: Be spiritually adopted into Ephraim; Or may literally descend from Ephraim, unknown to them until revealed by the Spirit (patriarchal blessing).

The Book of Zohar and Messiah ben Joseph Redeeming the Lost Dead

Passages in the Book of Zohar (Zohar 2:120a and 3:153b) the foundational book of Jewish Kabbalah — describe:

Mashiach ben Yosef as a redeemer of souls, especially those scattered or entrapped in material or sinful states. He is tasked with raising up the fallen sparks (souls) and preparing the world for full redemption. His mission is mystical, preparatory, and soul-oriented, not just political.

Joseph Smith introduced the doctrine of spirit world work, baptism for the dead, and eternal sealing ordinances - all about redeeming souls who were otherwise lost. This “rescuing of souls” aligns a bit with the mystical vision of elevating fallen sparks (nitzotzot) and freeing transmigrated souls (gilgulim). Recovery and elevation of lost souls.

Scroll of Secrets and Messiah ben Joseph's Hidden Works

Megillat Setarim (Scroll of Secrets) is a mystical and somewhat apocryphal Jewish text, quoted and interpreted by medieval Kabbalists. Speaks of hidden roles of the messiahs, especially Mashiach ben Yosef working in secret, preparing the land and people without full recognition. Often viewed as a text revealing the esoteric operations of redemption behind the scenes.

Joseph Smith’s life involved spiritual experiences (First Vision, Moroni visitations) that are not publicly believed and led to rejection. Much of his work Book of Mormon, priesthood restoration, temple endowments occurred in and nearly remains in relative obscurity, fitting the archetype of a hidden messiah. 

LDS temples contain knowledge that is: Restricted to initiates (worthy members), revealed progressively, associated with salvation and exaltation, matching the concealed spiritual themes in Megillat Setarim.

The Talmud and Messiah ben Joseph's Martyrdom

The Talmud interprets a verse of mourning to refer to the death of Messiah ben Joseph, which causes national mourning.

“What is the cause of the mourning [in Zechariah 12:12]? It is the slaying of Messiah the son of Joseph.” (Talmud Bavli, Sukkah 52a)

Joseph Smith was slain by a mob in 1844, despite being both a spiritual leader and national figure to his followers. Presidential candidate.

His death was deeply mourned by early Latter-day Saints. D&C 135 speaks of the “mourning of Zion” and describes him as a martyr whose death sealed his testimony.

He also died a martyr, seen by early Saints as a sacrificial figure whose death furthered God’s plan. D&C 135:3 calls him a man who “sealed his testimony with his blood.” He “prepared the way” for Christ’s second coming through the Restoration.

Vilna Gaon & Kol HaTor and Messiah ben Joseph Building Zion

Rabbi Elijah ben Solomon Zalman (1720–1797), known as the Vilna Gaon (the Genius of Vilna), a towering Lithuanian Jewish scholar, Talmudist, Kabbalist, and mystic. He had strong messianic beliefs rooted in the return to Zion and the active role of human beings in redemption Kol HaTor “The Voice of the Turtledove” is a work attributed to Rabbi Hillel Rivlin of Shklov, a leading disciple of the Vilna Gaon. Allegedly written in the late 18th century, the manuscript was hidden for generations and rediscovered and published in the 20th century.

The book details the Messiah ben Joseph, echoing earlier Midrash and Zohar, Kol HaTor teaches that:

a. Messiah ben Joseph begins the physical and political restoration of Israel (building cities, gathering exiles, preparing the land). While the Messiah ben David completes the spiritual redemption and final victory over evil.

Joseph Smith initiates the Restoration, builds Zion, gathers Israel, and lays the groundwork (literally in the sense of LDS temples and cities) but the final return of Christ (a Davidic Messiah figure) will complete the redemption.

b. Messiah ben Joseph as a Suffering, Sacrificial Redeemer

Kol HaTor explicitly states that Messiah ben Joseph must suffer, and possibly die, in his efforts to redeem Israel. His work is not “miraculous” but earthly, gradual, and political - paving the way for divine intervention.

Joseph Smith’s martyrdom is interpreted by many Saints as sacrificial, necessary to seal his testimony and advance the divine plan (see D&C 135:1–3). His life and death prepared the way for the millennial reign of Christ.

c. Restoration Before Redemption

Kol HaTor emphasizes that redemption begins through natural, political, and preparatory steps, not sudden miracles. It speaks of building up Jerusalem, gathering scattered tribes, and restoring priesthood functions before divine deliverance.

In LDS thought, the Restoration of the priesthood, gathering of Israel, temple work, and missionary labor in LDS theology all precede the Second Coming. The Saints see their work as part of Zion’s physical and spiritual rebuilding.

d. The Role of Ephraim and the North

Kol HaTor ties Ephraim's descendants to the leadership of redemption, not just as symbols but as active builders of Zion. Messiah ben Joseph is associated with the tribe of Ephraim, from the Lost Ten Tribes, believed to dwell in the “lands of the north” (cf. Jeremiah 31:8; D&C 133:26).

Most Saints are declared of the tribe of Ephraim, given a special role in gathering Israel.

D&C 133:26–34 echoes the Kol HaTor vision of northern tribes returning with sacred treasures, led by Ephraim.

The Gospel of John and the Messiah ben Joseph

Jewish leaders ask John the Baptist if he is the Messiah prophesied to come, John says, “When the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, ‘Who art thou?’ And he confessed and denied not, but confessed, ‘I am not the Christ.’ And they asked him, ‘What then? Art thou Elias?'”. He was to come before the great and wrathful day of the Lord. “And he said, ‘I am not.’ ‘Art thou that prophet?'” He answered no. (John 1: 19 -21)

"That Prophet" is thought to be the Messiah Ben Joseph tradition.

=================================================================

Sources: B. Sukkah 52a; Midrash Tanhuma-Yelammedenu, Bereshit 1; Megillat Setarim.

Studies: An Unknown Jewish Sect by Louis Ginzberg, pp. 209-256.

=================================================================

Warning: The existence of the Messiah ben Joseph and its sources are not recognized by the LDS Church

LDS doctrines are based on canonized revelation via living prophets. Kabbalah and Midrash texts are post-biblical, extra-scriptural, and not recognized by LDS leaders as inspired. LDS leadership and apologists often avoids terms like “secret” or “mystical” because they imply gnostic ideas, counter to our assurance of the universal accessibility of the gospel.

The Zoharic idea of raising fallen sparks, gilgulim (reincarnation) are rejected. We reject reincarnation, soul transmigration, and mystical cosmology foreign to the restored gospel. Humans are born of spirits that were born of eternal intelligences and are linear in progression, not recycled fragments of divine essence like in mystical Judaism.

However: I understand there is tension between LDS conservative views that tend to push out untraditional views, to either defend tradition and orthodoxy and make Mormonism ordinary and respectable to the world, which requires not indulging in such bizarre notions as anything but bizarre, no matter how interesting. And the LDS liberal views that tend to flirt with blasphemy and even devilry yet are at least open to even the most unexpected revelations.

So, what do you think? Is there is any merit to the Jewish Messiah Ben Joseph tradition? Or a mistake, a blend of the First and the Second Coming of Christ, hoping for a more warrior-like messiah? I think if Mormonism is true, it overturns much of what the world thinks is true. Symbols and traditions often survive longer than the memory and sources.

I think that the four titles (hearkening to Zechariah's Four Craftsmen) each concern Jesus Christ directly. Reading His words about Himself in 3 Nephi, these four roles (not genealogies) are wonderfully covered. "Messiah ben Joseph" in particular as the Messiah for the children of Joseph as described in Chapter 21, where He brings forth the sign, which I take to be the fulness of the Gospel, as the prophet of whom Moses spake. Joseph Smith and every other servant are those spoken of in  3 Nephi 20: 40, and support these four roles. The servant (of the Father) is still Jesus Christ, and He does His own work.

Chapter 21 is written in a way that Christ is referring to Himself, not Joseph Smith. For example: "I shall gather in... I will give unto you for a sign... repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people... " He gives the man (Joseph Smith) power to bring these things and Jesus words forth (verses 9 - 11), but this renders Joseph Smith a type for this aspect and not the Messiah ben Joseph, though the  prophecies of Joseph of old, including genealogy and name, point to Joseph Smith in that sense.

I suppose given modern revelation we could tie each of the four roles (Messiah ben David, Messiah ben Joseph, Elijah, and the Righteous Priest) to the plan of salvation with the atonement of Christ at the center, the sign of the fulness of the gospel coming forth, the sealing power, and the Millennial Reign, respectively. John the Baptist served under Messiah ben David, Joseph Smith under Messiah ben Joseph and Elijah (but perhaps a future prophet will restore and exercise more aspects of the sealing keys -- see Helaman 10), and others (the 144,000?) under the Righteous Priest.

Edited June 22, 2025 by CV75

[The Nehor]

I would point out that Jesus didn’t fulfill the requirements to be the Jewish messiah. The whole idea of what the messiah meant had to be reworked to make Jesus into the messiah and a Second Coming had to be accepted so that Jesus could complete all the messianic prophecies because he did not in his mortal life. Some of the requirements to be the messiah were debated but some were universally believed. Jesus did not fulfill them in life.

This is not the only time this happened. When Sabbatai Zevi was thought by many to be the Messiah in the 17th century he failed to accomplish all the messianic goals. He was coerced to convert to Islam and some of his followers insisted this was a false conversion that was part of God’s plan. Then he died and there were some Jews who held that he hadn’t really died or that he would be resurrected and come and fulfill the messianic promises. There may be some of them still around since they lived as normal Jews while holding this belief that the messiah had come and would come again. Also possible the holocaust ended up killing the last of them.

 

Messiah ben Yosef was something of a secret of the rabbis. They didn’t want Christians to use him as a debate point. Messiah ben Yosef was supposed to fulfill the “suffering servant” part of messianic prophecy. Then his enemies would kill him and then he would be brought back to life and rule with Messiah ben David and the other two messiahs. The problem is that Messiah ben Yosef sounds a lot like Jesus and Jewish scholars really didn’t want Christians pointing this out to them. I don’t think Joseph Smith is a good fit. You have to rework the whole concept quite a bit for Joseph Smith to work in the role.

[CV75]

Now here's the "biggie" : The RSV Zechariah refers to the four craftsmen as... drumroll... "smiths"!!! 

D&C 135:3, '"Joseph Smith [the four smiths], the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only [the Four Carpenters], for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it..."

Edited June 22, 2025 by CV75

[CV75]

@Pyreaux

Referring back to my earlier comment Posted yesterday at 10:06 AM (edited) It could be that, as the Prophet of the Restoration, Joseph Smith fills all four "smith' roles under Jesus' overarching Carpenter role, now assuming oversight over the other "smiths" I mentioned (John the Baptist, his successor to-date and future prophet(s), and the 144,000).

Edited June 23, 2025 by CV75

[Kevin Christensen]

Besides Skousen's mentions, Joseph Fielding McConkie did a book on the topic of Messiah Ben Joseph,  His Name Shall Be Joseph,

https://www.amazon.com/His-Name-Shall-Joseph-Prophecies/dp/0890361525

and an essay in Isaiah and the Prophets from Religious Studies.  "Joseph Smith as Found in Ancient Manuscripts"

https://rsc.byu.edu/isaiah-prophets/joseph-smith-found-ancient-manuscripts

I have also heard from the late John Tvedtnes, how when he was living in Jerusalem, was teaching a class on Mormonism to a group of Rabbis.  He was giving an overview of the Joseph Smith's life and achievements, and was planning on introducing the concept of Messiah Ben Joseph, but found that before he could bring up the topic, he heard them murmuring to one another, "Messiah Ben Joseph."  

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Tooele, UT

[Pyreaux]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

@Pyreaux

Referring back to my earlier comment Posted yesterday at 10:06 AM (edited) It could be that, as the Prophet of the Restoration, Joseph Smith fills all four "smith' roles under Jesus' overarching Carpenter role, now assuming oversight over the other "smiths" I mentioned (John the Baptist, his successor to-date and future prophet(s), and the 144,000).

Or that four of the first eleven Prophets of the Church bore the name Smith adds symbolic weight. The word Smith, in the Bible, is always used in mundane ways – in the context of metalwork, woodwork, etc. Except for one time. One use of the word stands out as unusual.

Joseph the Smith of the Lord in the Latter-days

Isaiah 54 describes the gathering of Israel in the latter days. It comes straight after the famous chapter about the suffering and atonement of the Messiah (chapter 53) but before the great "invitation" chapters (Isaiah 55+) a series of chapters about what Israel needs to do to be worthy of these things. Bolsters the idea that 54 describes what would follow in the aftermath of Christ’s redemptive work: the gathering of Israel and the re-establishment of His covenant people through modern prophets. Chapter 54 in particular seems to describe the modern day church. 

Verses 1–3: Match the early Church’s rise from obscurity in a "desert place" (Utah being literally in the desert).

1: The strength of the (mainly) Gentile believers (i.e., the church).

2: The terms "stake" (tent pole) and "ward" (tent peg) are routinely used for LDS congregations.

3: The church made its headquarters in a "desert" in the Gentile world, then grew.

Verses 4-10: The church is compared to a woman. The healing of her spiritual widowhood - the end of the apostasy.

4: The church began in 1830 as a persecuted minority. For over a thousand years before that, it had no prophetic head (it was like a widow).

5: But now it is God's true church once more

6-8: It was called again from a period of apostasy, but now the apostasy is over.

9-10: The church will never again fall into apostasy.

Verses 11-12: The future will be glorious.

Verse 13: "And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD"

Verse 14: The church is far from its oppressors (spiritually they cannot damage it; physically it was safe in the deserts of 'the tops of the mountains')

Verse 15: The church's enemies shall fail to stop it.

Verse 16 "Behold, I have created The Smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work"

Verse 17: "No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper."

Many of these words have special contexts. This is the only time in the Bible that "smith" is used out context of other craftsmen, and in the context of a last days' figure of a prophecy. It seems specific and singular. This is not the general term for a group of workers but "the smith." The word "bloweth" can be seen in the sense of "breathes life into" or "puts the spirit into." Also, the word translated as "coals" is not the usual word for coals. It refers to the black, charred remains. It is only used three times in the Bible: Proverbs 26:21 where glowing coals are compared with the black remains, and in Isaiah 44 where those who make idols, are disparagingly referred to as working in just the black remains (e.g. they are not able to make anything worthwhile).

All this is quite consistent with the idea the church had been apostate (a widow, having lost its husband, the Lord), and so the fire had gone out. But the Lord will send a Smith to turn the dead remains into a living fire again, forging the church an instrument in the hands of God. Like "A stone cut out without hands"

"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people...Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands... and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure." (Daniel 2:44–45)

“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized by revelation, and is that stone which is rolling forth to fill the whole earth.”
- Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 531

“This gospel of the kingdom shall never be taken from the earth again, but shall remain to usher in the millennial reign of the Savior.”
- D&C 138:44

Additional circumstantial name is Hyrum, Joseph Smith's brother, who was assistant president of the church, and was martyred alongside Joseph. Hyrum (or Hyram) means "my brother is exalted."

[CV75]

12 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Or that four of the first eleven Prophets of the Church bore the name Smith adds symbolic weight. The word Smith, in the Bible, is always used in mundane ways – in the context of metalwork, woodwork, etc. Except for one time. One use of the word stands out as unusual.

Joseph the Smith of the Lord in the Latter-days

Isaiah 54 describes the gathering of Israel in the latter days. It comes straight after the famous chapter about the suffering and atonement of the Messiah (chapter 53) but before the great "invitation" chapters (Isaiah 55+) a series of chapters about what Israel needs to do to be worthy of these things. Bolsters the idea that 54 describes what would follow in the aftermath of Christ’s redemptive work: the gathering of Israel and the re-establishment of His covenant people through modern prophets. Chapter 54 in particular seems to describe the modern day church. 

Verses 1–3: Match the early Church’s rise from obscurity in a "desert place" (Utah being literally in the desert).

1: The strength of the (mainly) Gentile believers (i.e., the church).

2: The terms "stake" (tent pole) and "ward" (tent peg) are routinely used for LDS congregations.

3: The church made its headquarters in a "desert" in the Gentile world, then grew.

Verses 4-10: The church is compared to a woman. The healing of her spiritual widowhood - the end of the apostasy.

4: The church began in 1830 as a persecuted minority. For over a thousand years before that, it had no prophetic head (it was like a widow).

5: But now it is God's true church once more

6-8: It was called again from a period of apostasy, but now the apostasy is over.

9-10: The church will never again fall into apostasy.

Verses 11-12: The future will be glorious.

Verse 13: "And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD"

Verse 14: The church is far from its oppressors (spiritually they cannot damage it; physically it was safe in the deserts of 'the tops of the mountains')

Verse 15: The church's enemies shall fail to stop it.

Verse 16 "Behold, I have created The Smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work"

Verse 17: "No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper."

Many of these words have special contexts. This is the only time in the Bible that "smith" is used out context of other craftsmen, and in the context of a last days' figure of a prophecy. It seems specific and singular. This is not the general term for a group of workers but "the smith." The word "bloweth" can be seen in the sense of "breathes life into" or "puts the spirit into." Also, the word translated as "coals" is not the usual word for coals. It refers to the black, charred remains. It is only used three times in the Bible: Proverbs 26:21 where glowing coals are compared with the black remains, and in Isaiah 44 where those who make idols, are disparagingly referred to as working in just the black remains (e.g. they are not able to make anything worthwhile).

All this is quite consistent with the idea the church had been apostate (a widow, having lost its husband, the Lord), and so the fire had gone out. But the Lord will send a Smith to turn the dead remains into a living fire again, forging the church an instrument in the hands of God. Like "A stone cut out without hands"

"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people...Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands... and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure." (Daniel 2:44–45)

“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized by revelation, and is that stone which is rolling forth to fill the whole earth.”
- Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 531

“This gospel of the kingdom shall never be taken from the earth again, but shall remain to usher in the millennial reign of the Savior.”
- D&C 138:44

Additional circumstantial name is Hyrum, Joseph Smith's brother, who was assistant president of the church, and was martyred alongside Joseph. Hyrum (or Hyram) means "my brother is exalted."

"Desert" (and older usage of the word) could also refer to the American wilerness frontier, often sparsely or uninhabited, as the Church began and then moved from NY to OH and MO/IL and land had to be cleared for settlement.

Too bad Hiram Abiff is a mythological figure, otherwise...  

[Kevin Christensen]

Here is John Tvedtnes on the topic., wherein he reports:

Quote

In the late 1970s, while teaching with the Brigham Young University Jerusalem program, I was invited to give a series of lectures (in Hebrew) on the subject of Mormonism at the University of Haifa. In one of the lectures, I displayed a chart outlining Joseph Smith’s major accomplishments. I intended to speak about each item on the list and, at the end, suggest that Joseph Smith fit the qualifications for the Messiah of Joseph expected by the Jews. But that turned out to be unnecessary. By the time I got through the top third of the list, I heard whispering among a group of orthodox Jewish students in the audience. They were saying, mashiah ben Joseph, “Messiah the son of Joseph.” [17]

https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1890301/posts

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Tooele, UT

[Robert F. Smith]

II Ne 3 features four Josephs, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2020/02/meet-the-four-josephs-of-2-nephi-3?lang=eng ,

1. Joseph who was sold into Egypt (father of twins, Ephraim & Manasseh, grandsons of HP of Re in Heliopolis, Egypt)

2. Joseph son of Lehi (of Manasseh)

3. Joseph Smith Sr (of Ephraim)

4. Joseph Smith Jr (of Ephraim), descendant of Joseph who was sold into Egypt, https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-3-no-3-2002/joseph-smith-messiah-prophetically-linked#_noteref-21 . 

[Robert F. Smith]

G. H. Dix, “The Messiah Ben Joseph,” Journal of Theological Studies, 27 (1926):130-143.

Israel Knohl, “The Messiah Son of Joseph,” BAR, 34/5 (Sep-Oct 2008):58-62,78.

Midrash Pesikta Rabbati 36, on the Messiah Ephraim, son of Joseph: “Master of the Universe, with joy in my soul and gladness in my heart I take this suffering upon myself, . . .  that not only those who are alive be saved in my days, but also those who are dead” (W. G. Braude, Pesikta Rabbati  [Yale Univ. Press, 1968], 678-679).

Talmud Babli Sukka 52a, the Messiah ben Joseph will precede the Messiah ben David, and will be killed, re Psalm 21:5 “Life hath he asked of thee, thou gavest it to him”; Sefer Zerubabel re Messiah son of Joseph killed by wicked Armilus and resurrected by the Messiah son of David and the Prophet Elijah (Martha Himmelfarb in D. Stern & M. Mirsky, eds., Rabbinic Folktales [Phila.: JPS, 1990], 67-90).

[Robert F. Smith]

On 6/21/2025 at 4:10 PM, Pyreaux said:

................................

.........There was no temple, no high priest, no legitimate priesthood. Sure, authority was claimed by succession and institution but no one claimed to be divinely anointed by heavenly messengers with power from on high...............

Actually, the D&C makes clear that the lineal priesthood of Aaron continues down into our day among the Jews (within the tribe of Levi).

On 6/21/2025 at 4:10 PM, Pyreaux said:

..................

Joseph Smith ben Joseph

.......................

Joseph Smith received a patriarchal blessing from his father, Joseph Smith Sr., on December 9, 1834, which contains one of the earliest clear statements about his tribal identity. It says: "Thou shalt be called a seer, a translator, a prophet... The Lord thy God hath called thee by name out of the heavens; thou art a descendant of Joseph, through the loins of Ephraim, his son..." (Patriarchal Blessing of Joseph Smith Jr., Dec. 9, 1834)

However, Patriarchal blessings in the early Church often declared individuals as descendants of Ephraim - including Brigham Young, John Taylor, and others. There are two ways to take the claim, and both can be true:

a. Adopted

.....................

b. Literal Descent

.............................

Thus, a Gentile convert may: Be spiritually adopted into Ephraim; Or may literally descend from Ephraim, unknown to them until revealed by the Spirit (patriarchal blessing).

Actually, patriarchs have been giving blessings which include nearly all the tribes if not all in recent decades -- especially the patriarch who traveled throughout the Russian empire.

On 6/21/2025 at 4:10 PM, Pyreaux said:

...............................

a. Messiah ben Joseph begins the physical and political restoration of Israel (building cities, gathering exiles, preparing the land). While the Messiah ben David completes the spiritual redemption and final victory over evil.

Joseph Smith initiates the Restoration, builds Zion, gathers Israel, and lays the groundwork (literally in the sense of LDS temples and cities) but the final return of Christ (a Davidic Messiah figure) will complete the redemption.

You could add here Joseph sending Apostle Orson Hyde to the Holy Land to dedicate it to the final gathering of the Jews and the building of their temple, which he did on the Mount of Olives in Oct 1841.

On 6/21/2025 at 4:10 PM, Pyreaux said:

............................

d. The Role of Ephraim and the North

Kol HaTor ties Ephraim's descendants to the leadership of redemption, not just as symbols but as active builders of Zion. Messiah ben Joseph is associated with the tribe of Ephraim, from the Lost Ten Tribes, believed to dwell in the “lands of the north” (cf. Jeremiah 31:8; D&C 133:26).

Most Saints are declared of the tribe of Ephraim, given a special role in gathering Israel.

............................

As mentioned above, more recent patriarchal blessings call that into question.