A post worth repeating . . .

[dimbulb]

The LDS church owes a debt of gratitude for the US Govt. for its well meaning effort to force the Lord's Church to suspend the practice of polygamy. It is hard to imagine what Utah would be like if the LDS church had succeeded in challenging the constitutionality of the laws against polygamy.

Surely you're mistaken. Early Mormon polygamy was nothing like what is practiced among the fundies today.

[cinepro]

It is hard to imagine what Utah would be like if the LDS church had succeeded in challenging the constitutionality of the laws against polygamy.

As dimbulb pointed out, it actually isn't very hard at all.

[Rollo Tomasi]

That you ignore the positive things which these women left behind in their journals, in the Woman's Exponent, et cetera for us to read demonstrates your true colors as just another ho-hum anti-Mormon.

Are you speaking of "journals" like that of Emmeline Wells, plural wife of Daniel Wells and editor of the Women's Exponent, who wrote in her diary on September 30, 1874:

"O, if my husband could only love me even a little and not seem to be perfectly indifferent to any sensation of that kind. He cannot know the craving of my nature; he is surrounded with love on every side, and I am cast out .... O my poor acting heart when shall it rest its burden only on the Lord .... Every other avenue seems closed to me." (as quoted in Richard S. Van Wagoner, Mormon Polygamy: A History, p. 94).

Another journal entry by Emmeline on October 10, 1874 (her 22nd wedding anniversary):

"Anniversary of my marriage with Pres. Wells. O how happy I was then how much pleasure I anticipated and how changed alas are things since that time, how few thoughts I had then have ever been realized, and how much sorrow I have known in place of the joy I looked forward to." (Id. at p. 94).

Or how about Dr. Martha Hughes Cannon, plural wife to Angus Cannon and physician and first female state senator in the U.S. In a December 30, 1891 letter to her husband, Martha wrote:

"Oh for a home! A husband of my own because he is my own. A father for my children whom they know by association. And all the little auxiliaries that make life worth living. Will they ever be enjoyed by this storm-tossed exile. Or must life thus drift on and one more victim swell the ranks of the great unsatisfied!" (Id. at p. 95).

Sarah Pratt's take on things (she ultimately divorced Orson when he started marrying teenagers):

"Here was my husband, gray headed and taking to his bed young girls in mockery of marriage. Of course there could be no joy for him in such an intercourse except the indulgence of his fanaticism and of something else, perhaps, which I hesitate to mention." (Id. at p. 99).

Sarah later described polygamy in an 1870's interview as "the direst curse with which a people or a nation could be afflicted ...." She explained:

"It completely demoralizes good men, and makes bad men correspondingly worse. As for women -- well, God help them! First wives it renders desperate, or else heart-broken, mean-spirited creatures; and it almost unsexes some of the other women, but not all of them, for plural wives have their sorrows too." (Id. at p. 100).

Phebe Woodruff, first wife of Wilford Woodruff and public supporter of polygamy, reportedly said this about it in private:

"I loathe the unclean thing [polygamy] with all the strength of my nature, but Sister, I have suffered all that a woman can endure. I am old and helpless, and would rather stand up anywhere, and say anything commanded of me, than to be turned out of my home in my old age which I should be most assuredly if I refused to obey counsel." (Id. at p. 101).

Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs Smith Young, another public supporter of polygamy, reportedly said this in private:

"Sister, you are not to blame, neither are you the only woman who is suffering torments on account of polygamy. There are women in this very house [brigham Young's] whose hearts are full of hell, and in that room ... is a women who has been a perfect fury ever since Brother Young married Sister Amelia Folsom. Brigham Young dare not enter that room or she would tear his eyes out. It is the system that is to blame for it, but we must try and be as patient as we can." (Id.).

Zina later explained how she dealt with polygamy, when she was quoted in the New York World on November 19, 1869, as saying:

"Much of the unhappiness found in polygamous families is due to the women themselves. They expect too much attention from the husband, and because they do not get it, or see a little attention bestowed upon one of the other wives, they become sullen and morose, and permit their ill-temper to finally find vent. A successful polygamous wife must regard her husband with indifference, and with no other feeling than that of reverance, for love we regard as a false sentiment; a feeling which should have no existence in polygamy." (Id.).

Wow. That Zina sure was an incurable romantic, wasn't she?

Yep, plural marriage sure sounds like a great deal for Mormon women. Yes, as loyal soldiers, they publicly defended polygamy and believed it to be a true doctrine, but it seems very clear that in private they hated it.

[Jaybear]

It is hard to imagine what Utah would be like if the LDS church had succeeded in challenging the constitutionality of the laws against polygamy.

As dimbulb pointed out, it actually isn't very hard at all.

I don't think so. We are talking about isolated communities, where they are practicing a doctrine which is illegal. If the LDS Church had succeeded in challenging the law, it would be out in the open, and it would have evolved differently with integation with the rest of society.

[Nighthawke]

A quick sidenote: Joseph did marry Orson Hyde's wife, Miranda Nancy, while Orson was on his famous mission to Palestine. Marinda Johnson has an even sadder story. There is evidence she shacked up with Willard Richards in early 1842 (Richards had an informal marriage with another plural wife, so this was consistent with his marriage arrangements) (Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness, p. 235-36; Van Wagoner, pp. 13-14, n.4); this was a brief relationship, however, since she married Joseph in April 1842 (Orson returned from his mission in December 1842). Another "btw" -- Orson Hyde indeed had left the Church (or was ex'ed or disfellowshipped) in 1838 in Far West, but it had nothing to do with polygamy -- this was BY's basis in 1875 for dropping Orson Hyde in seniority in the Twelve and allowing John Taylor to succeed to the presidency upon BY's death in 1877).

Cinepro (in an earlier post):

Evidently Hyde, although sealed to the prophet, was shared with Smith's scribe, Apostle Willard Richards, whose wife was in Massachusetts. Ebenezer Robinson wrote that in late January 1842, after his family was forced to vacate the printing office, "Willard Richards nailed down the windows, and fired off his revolver in the street after dark, and commenced living with Mrs. Nancy Marinda Hyde."36 John C. Bennett, former member of the First Presidency, wrote of Richards "Hyde-ing" and "Mrs. Hyde and Dr. Richards" residing at the printing office "on special business."37

There are so many errors up there in both Cinepro's and Rollo's posts it is frankly disheartening.

What is Tood Compton's "most important evidence suggesting an intimate relationship between Willard and Marinda"?? (see p. 237) Marinda Nancy Hyde prepared a roast turkey dinner held in the Printing House for Joseph Smith and the Twelve!!

Good grief, let's take Compton off that pedestal shall we?

On p. 238, Compton writes that Marinda Nancy Hyde, "had a friendship with Willard Richards that was characterized by three antagonistic Nauvoo former insiders, John Bennett, Sidney Rigdon, and printer Ebenezer Robinson, as a (polyandrous) plural marriage or an affair." Antagonistic means "One who opposes and contends against another; an adversary."

The most striking aspect of the testimonies of Rigdon [after he became estranged from Mormonism] and Robinson is that they were not first-hand witnesses for any actual marriage, as neither was part of the inner circle of polygamy. They saw that Marinda and Richards were living together in the same building, perhaps, and though such a living arrangement may have exceeded the customary norms of decorum, this would have been the extent of their own direct knowledge.

In addition, there seems to be a major anomaly in Robinson's story. Nauvoo plural marriage was always protected by a powerful code of silence, but Robinson portrays Richards virtually flaunting the polyandrous union, which seems unlikely. Firing a gun as a quasi-ritual of possession would be entirely inconsistent with the code of silence. Furthermore, if Richards was trying to keep the marriage clandestine, he would probably not accompany the wife to a public Christmas party.

Thus the extant evidence allows the view that Willard Richards and Marinda Hyde were living close together, perhaps, but not as man and wife, and in different rooms. By this interpretation, Rigdon and Robinson then placed excessive reliance on second-hand rumors. In fact, Rigdon admits that he had not heard the story first-hand: "I received the account from one who said he was acquainted with the facts.

[dimbulb]

That you ignore the positive things which these women left behind in their journals, in the Woman's Exponent, et cetera for us to read demonstrates your true colors as just another ho-hum anti-Mormon.

All four of my grandparents were descendants of polygamists. If they left any positive things in their journals about polygamy, I haven't seen it. They wrote of heartache, of neglect, of indifference. One of my ancestors was a 14 year old orphan who married a man with 6 children. She seems to have occupied the role of unpaid nanny and concubine. Her life history is heartbreaking and speaks of incredible hardship and loneliness.

[Nighthawke]

That you ignore the positive things which these women left behind in their journals, in the Woman's Exponent, et cetera for us to read demonstrates your true colors as just another ho-hum anti-Mormon.

Are you speaking of "journals" like that of (yada yada yada).

There you go doing it again. Ignoring their positive comments, ignoring historical events that were happening around them...

Where is the fact that Emmeline B. Wells and Daniel Wells fell hopelessly in love in their later years? And how he spent his later years with Emmeline? And what joy he brought to her life at that time?

(That's all right, Carol Cornwall Madsen's book on Emmeline B. Wells comes out in a couple of weeks so everyone will be able to read it for themselves instead of reading out of context stuff by the likes of Rollo.)

Dr. Martha Hughes Cannon--I see you neglected to mention the fact that all of this was taking place during the Raids. That would be where anti-Mormon officials were locking up polygamous husbands, wives (whether pregnant or not) in jail; where men were holed up underground, in hiding or sent off on foreign missions -- away from their wives and children and therefore unable to support them; where women were holed up with their children, some giving birth alone and then having to put their hand over the baby's mouth whenever he/she cried so they wouldn't be found out or sent away to Mexico or Canada or in Martha's case to England. Could that have been a reason for her unhappiness? Odd since that info can be found so easily on the Internet: "The marriage took place at the height of "The Raid," the federal government's anti-polygamy crusade. Shortly after her first child was born in 1885, she and one of her "sister-wives" fled to England to avoid being forced to testify against their husband." Oh yeah--you're only showing one side--the negative. Silly moi.

I've dealt with all of this before, I'm frankly tired of repeating myself. If anyone here is interested they can look up my old posts, including one where I addressed Zina Diantha's personal feeling that love "should have no existence in polygamy" which I showed before was untrue.

[cougarfan]

dimbulb,

My paternal grandparents were also both born into polygamous families.

My grandmother grew up on the hideout often in outlaw country to escape the marshals. Her mother earned her way and had only sporadic contact with her "husband". The fact that there were only a couple of children punctuates the sporadic. My grandmother would have supported polygamy to the bitter end.

My grandfather grew up in a less stressful polygamous family. His father was a stalwart leader with many accomplished children. I don't think my grandfather would have EVER participated. He thought there was more lust than was generally recognized.

I would have thought the attitudes would have been reversed.

The one thing that is sure is that the practice of polygamy was never easy, and the dishonesty that was inherent in dealing with the civil authorities was a significant factor in the difficulties in putting polygamy to an end.

[cinepro]

By the way the marriage between Joseph Smith and Marinda Nancy Hyde was for eternity only.

Later on, when everyone's endowments had to be repeated in the temple--including sealings--note that on January 11, 1846 Marinda was sealed to Orson Hyde, not Joseph Smith, for time and eternity.

How could Marinda have been sealed to Joseph for "time and eternity" in 1846? He was dead! You can't be married "for time" to a deceased person.

Of course, that wasn't the most interesting thing that happened that day:

In Nauvoo, the Saints concentrated on obtaining their endowments. Orson and Sarah were endowed in the Nauvoo temple on 12 December 1845 (the day after Orson's return) and were again sealed on 8 January 1846--a customary step for sealings that had earlier been performed outside the temple. But on 11 January, during an unusual event in the temple, both Orson and Sarah were evicted by vote because of a conflict with Parley P. Pratt. Parley had been secretly sealed to Belinda Marden by Brigham Young on 20 November 1844, and, on I January 1846, she gave birth to a son, Nephi.

Though Belinda was living in the Pratt home, Parley's legal wife Mary Ann did not know of the sealing. Evidently Sarah Pratt told Mary Ann that the baby's father was Parley, because during the 11 January temple session Parley confronted Sarah, accusing her of "influencing his wife against him, and of ruining and breaking up his family," as well as "being an apostate, and of speaking against the heads of the Church and against him" (Watson 1975, 495). Orson strongly defended his wife as he had done in 1842, and they were both expelled from the temple.

Dialogue, Vol.19, No.2, p.85

Here's another interesting quote:

Nancy Marinda Johnson, sister of apostles Luke and Lyman Johnson, married Orson Hyde in 1834. A year before Hyde returned from Jerusalem in 1843, Marinda was sealed to Smith (in April 1842), though she lived with Orson until their divorce in 1870. In another instance, Josephine Lyon Fisher, born to Windsor P. Lyon and Sylvia P. Sessions on 8 February 1844, less than five months before Smith's martyrdom, related in a 24 February 1915 statement her mother's deathbed testimony of 1882: "She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith, she having been sealed to the Prophet at the time that her husband Mr. Lyon was out of fellowship with the Church."3 Prescindia Huntington married Norman Buell in 1827 and had two sons by him before accepting Mormonism in 1836. She was sealed to Smith by her brother Dimick on 11 December 1841, though she continued to live with Buell until 1846, when she left him to marry Heber C. Kimball.

Richard S. Van Wagoner, Mormon Polygamy, p.44

As I noted before, isn't it weird that some women who were sealed to Joseph later claimed to have had his childrenl, when the only way that could be possible is if they "knew" him? Even if they were wrong, if there was even a remote possibility in these women's minds, it could only be due to one thing.

[Nighthawke]

That you ignore the positive things which these women left behind in their journals, in the Woman's Exponent, et cetera for us to read demonstrates your true colors as just another ho-hum anti-Mormon.

All four of my grandparents were descendants of polygamists. If they left any positive things in their journals about polygamy, I haven't seen it. They wrote of heartache, of neglect, of indifference. One of my ancestors was a 14 year old orphan who married a man with 6 children. She seems to have occupied the role of unpaid nanny and concubine. Her life history is heartbreaking and speaks of incredible hardship and loneliness.

Well then why don't y'all get it published?

p.s. You're beginning to sound awfully familiar. Perhaps it is time to change aliases again?

[dimbulb]

Well then why don't y'all get it published?

It's not mine to publish. My great aunt published it years ago, and I'm sure it's available in certain libraries in Utah. The ancestor I'm speaking of was named Lydia Porter.

p.s. You're beginning to sound awfully familiar. Perhaps it is time to change aliases again?

Really. Have we met? Just out of curiosity, are you suggesting I'm a serial anti-Mormon who changes screen names?

[Rollo Tomasi]

What is Tood Compton's "most important evidence suggesting an intimate relationship between Willard and Marinda"?? (see p. 237) Marinda Nancy Hyde prepared a roast turkey dinner held in the Printing House with himself and the Twelve!!

There's another piece of evidence that Willard Richard may have "married" Marinda Hyde -- in his own diary on December 23, 1845, Richards writes of his solemnizing his own marriage to Alice Longstroth (this was very rare, even in Mormon polygamy). Thus, it is certainly possible that Richards did something similar with Marinda. (Compton, In Sacred Loneliness, p. 695).

By the way the marriage between Joseph Smith and Marinda Nancy Hyde was for eternity only.

I think the evidence is inconclusive on this point (Compton points out there is no autobiographical writings or other significant evidence to establish this). JS married several polyandrous wives for "time and eternity" (although they continued to live with their legal husbands), so it would not be unreasonable if he married Marinda the same way.

[Nighthawke]

Nighthawk:

Well meaning people tried to "save" these women, sending missionaries to Utah to educate them (didn't work), building a lovely and expensive refuge for these polygamous women to escape to (didn't work), the train for them to escape on (didn't work), giving them the vote so they could vote their way out (didn't work), et cetera.

You are correct the most effective tactic employed by well meaning people to curb polygamy was to hit the Church where it hurt the most, its pocketbook.

Btw, your post does not offer compelling support for the divine nature of the doctine of polgyamy, but a stark reminder of the powerfully dangerous force of relgious indoctrination. One need only look to the women of Hildale and Colorado City to see the product of religious indoctrination. Here are otherwise decent, God fearing testimony bearing women, who at the direction of the lord's chosen pophet will leave a husband accused of apostacy and marry his brother. Women that will give away their 13 year old girls to men in their 40s and 50s, and step aside when their sons are forced out of the cult, to maintain a suitable inventory of brides.

The LDS church owes a debt of gratitude for the US Govt. for its well meaning effort to force the Lord's Church to suspend the practice of polygamy. It is hard to imagine what Utah would be like if the LDS church had succeeded in challenging the constitutionality of the laws against polygamy.

Appeal to pity: Going for the sympathy vote are you? And I detect an appeal to fear in there as well. Red Herrings... hmmm, your post is nothing but fallacious appeals to reader's emotions.

[Nighthawke]

What is Tood Compton's "most important evidence suggesting an intimate relationship between Willard and Marinda"?? (see p. 237) Marinda Nancy Hyde prepared a roast turkey dinner held in the Printing House with himself and the Twelve!!

There's another piece of evidence that Willard Richard may have "married" Marinda Hyde -- in his own diary on December 23, 1845, Richards writes of his solemnizing his own marriage to Alice Longstroth (this was very rare, even in Mormon polygamy). Thus, it is certainly possible that Richards did something similar with Marinda. (Compton, In Sacred Loneliness, p. 695).

By the way the marriage between Joseph Smith and Marinda Nancy Hyde was for eternity only.

I think the evidence is inconclusive on this point (Compton points out there is no autobiographical writings or other significant evidence to establish this). JS married several polyandrous wives for "time and eternity" (although they continued to live with their legal husbands), so it would not be unreasonable if he married Marinda the same way.

Todd Compton clearly states that, "...a marital connection between Richards and Marinda has not been conclusively demonstrated by the extant evidence." (p. 236)

And on p. 243 Compton writes, "Marinda apparently did not receive this ordinance with him [Orson Hyde] because she was sealed for eternity to Smith.

[Rollo Tomasi]

Nighhawke:

Let me try again a little more slowly, and we'll see if that helps.

Where is the fact that Emmeline B. Wells and Daniel Wells fell hopelessly in love in their later years? And how he spent his later years with Emmeline? And what joy he brought to her life at that time?

Are you saying that Daniel Wells made up for nearly 40 years of neglect of Emmeline by becoming close to her near the end of his life? Emmeline appreciated the gesture, but wryly noted after his death, "Such intense love he has manifested towards me of late years. Such a remarkable change from the long ago -- when I needed him so much more." (Van Wagoner, at p. 94-95) (emphasis mine). Way to go, Dan!

Dr. Martha Hughes Cannon--I see you neglected to mention the fact that all of this was taking place during the Raids.

...

Could that have been a reason for her unhappiness? Odd since that info can be found so easily on the Internet: "The marriage took place at the height of "The Raid," the federal government's anti-polygamy crusade. Shortly after her first child was born in 1885, she and one of her "sister-wives" fled to England to avoid being forced to testify against their husband." Oh yeah--you're only showing one side--the negative. Silly moi.

This is getting too easy. Apparently you neglected to note the date of Martha's letter to Angus that I quoted -- December 30, 1891, a year after the Manifesto and the end of polygamy.

I've dealt with all of this before, I'm frankly tired of repeating myself.

Practice makes perfect. You still have a ways to go, so don't give up yet -- we're all very patient here, and we'd be happy to help you finally figure it out.

[katherine the great]

The LDS church owes a debt of gratitude for the US Govt. for its well meaning effort to force the Lord's Church to suspend the practice of polygamy. It is hard to imagine what Utah would be like if the LDS church had succeeded in challenging the constitutionality of the laws against polygamy.

Southern California, Nevada, Arizona and Southern Idaho might even be a part of Utah now if polygamy had been abandoned at the beginning of the Utah era. It's interesting to think about how the church (and even American history) would be different if polygamy had played out differently.

[Nighthawke]

What is Tood Compton's "most important evidence suggesting an intimate relationship between Willard and Marinda"?? (see p. 237) Marinda Nancy Hyde prepared a roast turkey dinner held in the Printing House with himself and the Twelve!!

There's another piece of evidence that Willard Richard may have "married" Marinda Hyde -- in his own diary on December 23, 1845, Richards writes of his solemnizing his own marriage to Alice Longstroth (this was very rare, even in Mormon polygamy). Thus, it is certainly possible that Richards did something similar with Marinda. (Compton, In Sacred Loneliness, p. 695).

It also says on p. 695 "...he solemnized himself . . . showing how secretive and extra-legal Mormon polygamy could be, and how distant from publicly recognized and solemnized marriage."

Again if it was this secret (and it was), why the heck would Richards be out there shooting a rifle in the air??

Another important point in his notes is that, "One would also think that if Bennett had certainly known about such a relationship, he would have highlighted it for sensational effect, instead of merely mentioning it in passing as a rumor."

Bennett was notorious for openly naming plural wives on his anti-Mormon circuit to different cities and towns--oftentimes referring to them cruelly as prostitutes. (see my previous posts re: John C. Bennett)

[Scott Lloyd]

Just an observation here:

There comes a point when one advances along a continuum beyond merely being "troubled' about a matter to having formed a hardened position about it that will not be dislodged no matter what evidence to the contrary is presented. At that point, he is not the objective truth seeker he professes to be, but rather, an advocate, just as much as the most doctrinaire Mormon he holds in disdain.

[Nighthawke]

Nighhawke:

Let me try again a little more slowly, and we'll see if that helps.

Where is the fact that Emmeline B. Wells and Daniel Wells fell hopelessly in love in their later years? And how he spent his later years with Emmeline? And what joy he brought to her life at that time?

Are you saying that Daniel Wells made up for nearly 40 years of neglect of Emmeline by becoming close to her near the end of his life? Emmeline appreciated the gesture, but wryly noted after his death, "Such intense love he has manifested towards me of late years. Such a remarkable change from the long ago -- when I needed him so much more." (Van Wagoner, at p. 94-95) (emphasis mine). Way to go, Dan!

Dr. Martha Hughes Cannon--I see you neglected to mention the fact that all of this was taking place during the Raids.

...

Could that have been a reason for her unhappiness? Odd since that info can be found so easily on the Internet: "The marriage took place at the height of "The Raid," the federal government's anti-polygamy crusade. Shortly after her first child was born in 1885, she and one of her "sister-wives" fled to England to avoid being forced to testify against their husband." Oh yeah--you're only showing one side--the negative. Silly moi.

This is getting too easy. Apparently you neglected to note the date of Martha's letter to Angus that I quoted -- December 30, 1891, a year after the Manifesto and the end of polygamy.

I've dealt with all of this before, I'm frankly tired of repeating myself.

Practice makes perfect. You still have a ways to go, so don't give up yet -- we're all very patient here, and we'd be happy to help you finally figure it out.

That is just one sentence from Van Wagoner. I look forward to reading an entire book on Emmeline B. wells in just a couple of weeks.

What difference does it make when Dr. Martha Hughes Cannon wrote her letter? Like the Manifesto made everything all better? Are you wacked out or what? Things only got much worse for polygamous families after the Manifesto was issued everyone knows that. Some husbands interpreted it as being justified in abandoning their wives and children, non-polygamous families turned on polygamous families, families who had been in hiding for tens years were dirt poor (it was illegal for men to support their polygamous wives-proof of cohabitation and all that), and so forth. It was a horrible time.

[Rollo Tomasi]

Todd Compton clearly states that, "...a marital connection between Richards and Marinda has not been conclusively demonstrated by the extant evidence." (p. 236)

I agree, but that's only because of a lack of evidence. Compton concedes that "the extant evidence allows the view that Willard Richards and Marinda Hyde were living close together [in the printing office], perhaps, but not as man and wife, and in different rooms." (p. 238). Compton also concedes that Richards's only wife at the time (his legal wife Jennetta) was not in Nauvoo at the time, because Willard "traveled east to reunite" with her in July 1842. (p. 695), and, of course, we know Orson Hyde wasn't there because he was in Palestine. Thus, it is certainly possible, according to the extant evidence, that Richards and Marinda resided in the printing office at the same time -- and, as we all know, "mice tend to play when the cat's [i.e., their spouses] away."

And on p. 243 Compton writes, "Marinda apparently did not receive this ordinance with him [Orson Hyde] because she was sealed for eternity to Smith.

This doesn't mean that she wasn't also married "for time" to Joseph in April 1842, just that she wasn't married to Orson "for eternity." Joseph married polyandrous wives for "time and eternity," and there's no reason to think he didn't do the same with Marinda -- there simply isn't enough evidence to conclude one way or the other.

[Nighthawke]

And one more thing about Emmeline B. Wells--she asked Daniel to marry her. So if it took Daniel a bit of time to warm up to her, it's understandable since she is the one who went to him. He provided her with her own house and she lived comfortably. She was also a defender of plural marriage in the Woman's Exponent under her own name and her pseudonym Emmeline Blanche Woodward. "A strong supporter of polygamy, Emmeline defended the practice before numerous congressional committees and in audiences with three United States Presidents." (Carol Cornwall Madsen)

[Rollo Tomasi]

What difference does it make when Dr. Martha Hughes Cannon wrote her letter?

It's important because you made a big deal about all the horrible things happening to polygamists at the time ("raids," etc.). Thus, the date of the letter I quoted, over a year after the Manifesto, is highly relevant to this false claim.

Like the Manifesto made everything all better? Are you wacked out or what? Things only got much worse for polygamous families after the Manifesto was issued everyone knows that. Some husbands interpreted it as being justified in abandoning their wives and children, non-polygamous families turned on polygamous families, families who had been in hiding for tens years were dirt poor (it was illegal for men to support their polygamous wives-proof of cohabitation and all that), and so forth. It was a horrible time.

How very interesting, the way your argument morphs when you are faced with an obvious mistake. At first, you claimed government raids and the like caused Martha to write the letter I quoted. Now, you seem to be saying that the Mormon husbands were using the Manifesto to abandon families, etc. So which was it? The government, or the husband, that caused Martha to write such a heartrending letter? Could it possibly be The Principle itself? From the many quotes I gave above, the answer should be obvious, even to you.

[Rollo Tomasi]

And one more thing about Emmeline B. Wells--she asked Daniel to marry her. So if it took Daniel a bit of time to warm up to her, it's understandable since she is the one who went to him.

40 years is "understandable"? You're starting to sound like you share the "romance in marriage" beliefs of Zina.

He provided her with her own house and she lived comfortably. She was also a defender of plural marriage in the Woman's Exponent under her own name and her pseudonym Emmeline Blanche Woodward. "A strong supporter of polygamy, Emmeline defended the practice before numerous congressional committees and in audiences with three United States Presidents." (Carol Cornwall Madsen)

I do not dispute that in public she was a loyal supporter of polygamy. My point all along, however, is what she really felt, as shown by her private writings.

[Nighthawke]

Todd Compton clearly states that, "...a marital connection between Richards and Marinda has not been conclusively demonstrated by the extant evidence." (p. 236)

I agree, but that's only because of a lack of evidence. Compton concedes that "the extant evidence allows the view that Willard Richards and Marinda Hyde were living close together [in the printing office], perhaps, but not as man and wife, and in different rooms." (p. 238). Compton also concedes that Richards's only wife at the time (his legal wife Jennetta) was not in Nauvoo at the time, because Willard "traveled east to reunite" with her in July 1842. (p. 695), and, of course, we know Orson Hyde wasn't there because he was in Palestine. Thus, it is certainly possible, according to the extant evidence, that Richards and Marinda resided in the printing office at the same time -- and, as we all know, "mice tend to play when the cat's [i.e., their spouses] away."

And on p. 243 Compton writes, "Marinda apparently did not receive this ordinance with him [Orson Hyde] because she was sealed for eternity to Smith.

This doesn't mean that she wasn't also married "for time" to Joseph in April 1842, just that she wasn't married to Orson "for eternity." Joseph married polyandrous wives for "time and eternity," and there's no reason to think he didn't do the same with Marinda -- there simply isn't enough evidence to conclude one way or the other.

Oh I see. Thank you for clarifying that it's "only because of a lack of evidence." Hello? Anyone home?

Joseph also married for eternity only "and there's no reason to think he didn't do the same with Marinda".

An appeal to ignorance. "Only because of a lack of evidence." Not one of your finer moments there Rollo...

[Rollo Tomasi]

An appeal to ignorance. "Only because of a lack of evidence."

This was the point of Compton -- that in Marinda's case (unlike other polyandrous wives of JS) this is no autobiographical writings (like journals and letters) or other significant evidence.