A post worth repeating . . .

[Nighthawke]

I do not dispute that in public she was a loyal supporter of polygamy. My point all along, however, is what she really felt, as shown by her private writings.

And as we've seen here over and over again today, your point(s) are not too deep. All you've got is a sentence by Van Wagoner, there's a whole book coming out in a couple of weeks. My understanding is that Emmeline and Daniel got on famously later on--I don't believe it was forty years later for crying out loud they had children together. I guess we'll find out soon enough indeed.

[Jaybear]

Nighthawke:

Appeal to pity: Going for the sympathy vote are you? And I detect an appeal to fear in there as well. Red Herrings... hmmm, your post is nothing but fallacious appeals to reader's emotions.

An appeal to sympathy would only be effective if the reader shares a distate for what the women of Hilldale are willing to do in the name of religion.

[Rollo Tomasi]

And as we've seen here over and over again today, your point(s) are not too deep.

Very possible.

My understanding is that Emmeline and Daniel got on famously later on--I don't believe it was forty years later for crying out loud they had children together.

"Later on" being the operative phrase here. Siring children does not necessarily require "getting on famously," and certainly not in this case, based on Emmeline's diary. And Daniel Wells had 36 children by his plural wives, but only 3 of those came from Emmeline (she had the least number of children by Daniel of all his 6 plural wives).

I guess we'll find out soon enough indeed.

Agreed.

[Nighthawke]

An appeal to ignorance. "Only because of a lack of evidence."

This was the point of Compton -- that in Marinda's case (unlike other polyandrous wives of JS) this is no autobiographical writings (like journals and letters) or other significant evidence.

That's a major point of Compton's book--lack of evidence. And it isn't only in Marinda Nancy Hyde's case but a lot of other instances. Perhaps that's why he chose to fill in some of those blank pages with antagonistic gossip?

Still, I've got to give Compton credit he did mention the fact that the sources were antagonistic.

Too bad critics who repeat the gossip neglect to mention the antagonistic part, and the lack of real evidence part... I guess to include that information would diminish the shock value that critics live and breathe for.

[Nighthawke]

Nighthawke:

Appeal to pity: Going for the sympathy vote are you? And I detect an appeal to fear in there as well. Red Herrings... hmmm, your post is nothing but fallacious appeals to reader's emotions.

An appeal to sympathy would only be effective if the reader shares a distate for what the women of Hilldale are willing to do in the name of religion.

You're trying to compare polygamy as practiced by the Latter-day Saints to what is practiced by fundamentalist offshoots of the Church today. I see no comparison. These groups all went off in many different directions, each little offshoot doing its own thing--tell me which one is practising it exactly the same way it was practised by the LDS Church?

[cinepro]

These groups all went off in many different directions, each little offshoot doing its own thing--tell me which one is practising it exactly the same way it was practised by the LDS Church?

Nighthawke, what do you see as the major differences between polygamy as practiced by FLDS today in Colorado City, and as practiced by the LDS in the latter half of the 19th Century? (I mean real, substantive differences, not those having to do with authority, since the FLDS claim just as much authority as the LDS claimed.)

[Rollo Tomasi]

Still, I've got to give Compton credit he did mention the fact that the sources were antagonistic.

Too bad critics who repeat the gossip neglect to mention the antagonistic part, and the lack of real evidence part... I guess to include that information would diminish the shock value that critics live and breathe for.

Compton also mentions that John C. Bennett was an LDS insider at the time. (p. 237). As for the others, Compton writes:

"Historian D. Michael Quinn has accepted that Marinda and Richards married while Orson was on his mission. However, this conclusion is interpretive, not certain, he tells me. He argues that in many other cases Rigdon and Robinson [two of the "antagonistic" sources] have been reliable, and he believes some journal documentation supports the marriage." (p. 695).

And although Rigdon and Robinson were not insiders of Joseph's polygamy circle, they would both have been in a position to see that Richards and Marinda were living in the same building (with their legal spouses absent from Nauvoo at the time). Compton states, speaking of Rigdon and Robinson:

"They saw that Marinda and Richards were living in the same building, perhaps, and though such a living arrangement may have exceeded the customary norms of decorum, this would have been the extent of their own direct knowledge." (p. 238).

Indeed, Robinson's account simply says that Richards "commenced living with Mrs. Nancy Miranda Hyde, in the rooms we had vacated in the printing office building, where they lived through the winter." (p. 237). It would be easy for him to reach this conclusion if he saw them (sans spouses) living in the same building (his former home).

Rigdon goes further by suggesting a "sealing" occurred which would preclude Richard's adultery with Marinda as they lived in the printing office together. It may be that Rigdon made this connection because of Marinda's role in trying to convince his daughter, Nancy Rigdon, to accept JS's marriage proposal. According to Compton's retelling of Bennett's account, Marinda got Nancy to come to the printing office (where Marinda had been living with Richards) to meet with JS (in Bennett's account, Nancy was locked in a room with Joseph, and when she got upset and wanted to leave, Joseph asked Marinda "to explain matters to her." Marinda failed, of course, and when Nancy told her father what had happened, he had an irreparable break with Joseph). (p. 239-40). The fact that Marinda and the printing office were involved in Joseph's proposal to Nancy Rigdon, might explain why Sidney later concluded that Marinda's and Richards's living arrangement at the printing office was a form of plural marriage.

[Mark Beesley]

AAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGG!!!!!

I apolgized to whitedlace in a PM, and now I'm going to apologize publicly. I re-posted whitedlace's account because, as I read it, it touched me and I wanted others to be able to feel the same thing. I didn't want to see it get lost in the middle of the lengthy thread where it originally appeared. How naive of me.

Moderator, I started this thread. Would you please close it?

[SlackTime]

AAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGG!!!!!

I apolgized to whitedlace in a PM, and now I'm going to apologize publicly. I re-posted whitedlace's account because, as I read it, it touched me and I wanted others to be able to feel the same thing. I didn't want to see it get lost in the middle of the lengthy thread where it originally appeared. How naive of me.

Moderator, I started this thread. Would you please close it?

Closed by originator's request

-SlackTime