Mark Hofmann: Where Was

[Dale]

Both LDS & Community of Christ officials were duped by Mark Hoffman's fakes. An example of one was the Joseph Smith 3rd blessing which was added to appendix G in the Community of Christ edition of the Doctrine & Covenants. Which of course when it was discovered to be a fake it was removed from the appendix.

Here's are several quotes from Jim Reeves & Jon Tandy response to the issue:

"Subsequent examination of the document by a paper-testing laboratory and two document examiners, not affiliated with either the LDS or RLDS churches, proved that the document was genuine."(Pg. 47)

"The RLDS Church accepted the document because of the available scientific facts, not on the basis of prophetic revelation. None was claimed at the time, and church leaders urged restraint in relying on the document as a "proof text," noting that the proof of Joseph Smith 111's calling was already established by eyewitness testimony." ( On Behalf of Christ's Restored Gospel (Volume 1) page 47.)

"New evidence was obtained from a highly sophisticated test, developed after the RLDS Church had accepted the document, that it was a forgery."(pg. 47)

The article I am citing from Jon Tandy & Jim Reeves is entitled Answers to "Forty Provocative Questions". The book On Behalf of Christ's Restored Gospel may be obtained for $5.50 from the book store at http://www.angelmessage.org/care

The book is a response to Carol Hansons Reorganized Latter Day Saint Church: Is It Christian? which is very popular among those who try & save RLDS from the deception they think we are under. The resource beats anything FAIR has published to date. The book has a few flawed arguments but it hits basic anti-restoration trivia pretty hard.

[Bob Crockett]

Are prophets immune from being deceived?

One of the greatest prophets of the Old Testament was Joshua, whose name was changed to Joshua (which Eusebius argued was on account of being a type of Jesus Christ).

There is a very interesting account in Joshua 9 of Joshua being deceived. One wonders why this story is in the Old Testament.

The Lord commanded Joshua to wipe out the Gibeonites.

The Gibeonites, hearing of Joshua's success at Ai and and Jericho, feared for their lives and sent emissaries to Joshua and pretended to be from afar (going so far as to dress up as long-distance travelers -- how similar to document forgery), seeking a treaty with Joshua. Joshua agreed to the treaty and then learned he had been deceived.

Joshuah 9:22: "Wherefore have ye beguilded us, saying, We are very far from you; when ye dwell among us?" They Gibeonites responded: "we were sore afraid of our lives because of you, and have done this thing."

Joshua felt he was forced to live with the treaty, and he did.

rcrocket

[tubaloth]

Part of learning and growing is using our agency. we do the best we can with the knowledge we have. Prophets are the same way, they do the best they can with the knowledge they gain, either from their own power (reading scriptures) or from revelation.

We make choices based off this. Does this mean every choice is right. No, because when more knowledge is presented a better choice can be made. Why didn't the Lord give the prophets more knowledge about these documents at the time? I don't know, nor do I think their is a good explanation. Should I hold the leaders of the church responsible for the choice the made. No! They did the best they could with the knowledge they had. Was it the best! Who knows. But I think they probably would make the same choice again. I don't think the church ever was caught up that these "Forged Documents" were ever real. But more that they wanted to examine them more fully to test if they were real. The only way they could do this was to buy them.

For more about this Elder Oaks gave a good talk about it.

Recent Events Involving Church History and Forged Documents

What would you have done differently?

[Dale]

The Lord in LDS belief took many years to let his servants drop the priest-hood ban regarding the ordination of blacks. That ban caused the LDS a lot of bad press over the years. But the Lord with Mark Hofmann was supposed to give instant discernment that controls mortal leadership decisions.

Prayer does not give instant clear answers on the spot.

I guess was what bothers people is some people think the prophet recieves direct "Thus saith the Lord's" daily & could not imagine a prophet who would be in danger of being duped. When the reality hit them that this myth was untrue it devestates them.

Of course my church President is Stephen Veazey. But I try & be respectful of LDS prophetic leadership as well.

I do not know the LDS leaders didn't to themselves think Mark Hofmann was flaky. They didn't accept his documents at face value based on his word alone but submitted them to document experts. I don't know this but I speculate they probably had a file on his history & dubious connections. If they made a mistake it was relying on the files contents & handwriting experts to guide them, not in blindly trusting the guy.

-----------

I just found out in 2005 that a document purporting to be a letter from Joseph Smith to plural wives Maria & Sarah Lawrence was a Hofmann fake. It was cited in Mormon Enigma by Newell & Avery. I am sure they drooled over the letter at the time. That document upset me when I first read it. When they cited it I had assumed they knew what they were talking about.

[tubaloth]

But the Lord with Mark Hofmann was supposed to give instant discernment that controls mortal leadership decisions.

Where does it say this?

We have to realize the Lord has a greater view point then ours. Did it bother some in the church? Of course it did. Has the church missed a step. I don

[juliann]

If prophets are supposed to know everything...why are we worried about the small stuff? Why aren't they giving us 22nd century knowledge now? Why are they letting people die when they could just cough up the medical technology of tomorrow? And they could save the world if they would just come up with the future technology for energy. But most of all.... why didnt' Moses just nuke the Egyptians?

[juliann]

BTW....for all you conspiracy theorists....there is going to be a seminar on Hoffman in mid October.

The Southwestern Association of Forensic Document

Examiners Invites you to

  attend an all day seminar "The Hands of Hofmann,

  Motive for Murder" (an

  in-depth analysis of the crimes of Mark Hofmann)

 

  A comprehensive study of the criminal investigation

  surrounding the Mark

Hofmann bombs and forgeries, and the Salamander

  letter. For the first and

probably the last time we will bring together

  prosecutors, investigators,

victims, historians, and forensic document examiners

to discuss their

  involvement in this investigation, and answer your

  questions. Speakers

include the people who solved the most sophisticated

  crime in Utah's

history. Now after 20 years you will hear the facts;

  no more rumors.

Time: Saturday, October 15, 2005 8:30 am-4:30 pm

Location: Red Lion Hotel, 161 West 600 South, Salt

Lake City, Utah

 

  Registration can be paid at the door for $40 or save

  $10 by taking advantage

  of early registration.

Contact George Throckmorton, Director; Salt Lake

City Police Crime Lab (801)

799-3030 or george.throckmorton@slcgov.com

[Dale]

I could see wisdom in the Lord deciding to let things work out their own rather than give a warning not to buy his stuff. I have no doubt without his murderous bombings that these documents would never have recieved proper testing.

One person told me that without the Mormon Church Hofman buying some of his documents would have not thought to himself getting rich. I looked at some of his fakes on a website this morning & each item would today if thought to be authentic would be worth a fortune. I don't think if I had a document worth thousands of dollars I paid for that I would willingly submit it to a more sophisticated test.

[Rollo Tomasi]

But the Lord with Mark Hofmann was supposed to give instant discernment that controls mortal leadership decisions.

I tend to agree. Hofmann was very dangerous to the Church; he was rewriting the Church's history in an effort to deceive. If there was ever a case for discernment, this was it (putting aside the issue of rewriting Church history, 5 minutes of discernment may also have gone a long way in preventing the murder of 2 innocent persons).

Bruce McConkie wrote: "In its fullest manifestation the gift of the discerning of spirits is poured out upon the presiding officials in God's kingdom; they have it given to them to discern all gifts and all spirits, lest any come among the saints and practice deception." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 197, citing to D&C 46:27).

I think the Hofmann episode laid bare what many already suspected: the Brethren do not have any greater discernment than the rest of us. We all have discernment to some degree, whether we call it discernment or "gut feeling," "intuition," or "sixth sense." Hofmann fooled everyone -- G.A., expert and regular folk alike. And his dealings with the Brethren lasted for over 5 years and 40-plus deals. This was not a one-time con, but a pattern that should have been exposed by anyone claiming greater powers of discernment than the average guy.

[charity]

It seems to me instant perfect descernment is about the same as instant blessings/punishment for following the commandments. Pretty much takes away agency.

And remember, any blessing or guidance from the Lord is His to give. The Lord's purposes are not for us decide. And one of the most useless is of all intellectual exercises is to ask why the Lord did something the way He did. Our understanding is so puny.

[Edgar]

Dallin Oaks - In order to perform their personal ministries, Church leaders cannot be suspicious and questioning of each of the hundreds of people they meet each year. Ministers of the gospel function best in an atmosphere of trust and love. In that kind of atmosphere, they fail to detect a few deceivers, but that is the price they pay to increase their effectiveness in counseling, comforting, and blessing the hundreds of honest and sincere people they see. It is better for a Church leader to be occasionally disappointed than to be constantly suspicious.

Oaks' talk, and this comment specifically, never rang true to me. It seems like damage control.

There are always scriptures from the Bible to prove any point of view. What about Matthew 10: 16 which is from Christ directly to His apostles?

16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

[charity]

Edgar, you may provide for us your bona vides in the experience that Elder Oakes is talking about, in "counseling, comforting and blessing" hundreds of people in the capacity of a General Authority, and then we can decide if you can make the judgement "rings true" or not. Thanks.

[StBalthasar]

I think the Hofmann episode laid bare what many already suspected: the Brethren do not have any greater discernment than the rest of us. We all have discernment to some degree, whether we call it discernment or "gut feeling," "intuition," or "sixth sense." Hofmann fooled everyone -- G.A., expert and regular folk alike. And his dealings with the Brethren lasted for over 5 years and 40-plus deals. This was not a one-time con, but a pattern that should have been exposed by anyone claiming greater powers of discernment than the average guy.

When I was in the MTC (and afterwards) I heard (and later researched) the story of the Tehran, Iran mission. Interestingly, prior to any direct trouble against Americans President Kimball closed the mission there. That is an awesome example of discernment (the American hostages were taken only a few months later). Similarly, when the Falkland Island crises unfolded (while I was in the MTC) president Kimball, though getting a plane ready, did not close missions or transfer droves of missionaries to other missions; he discerned that the crisis would not lead to a terribly disruptive war.

Concerning Hoffman, the Lord's purposes have always included the trial of the faith of His people. I was on my mission when we first heard, via Church News, of some of the Hoffman "finds" (that later turned out to be forgeries); the white salamander letter was especially interesting to me, since the story, at face value, did not jibe with anything else I knew. Elders on my mission asked me to explain it away, and I could not; I could only repeat my testimony and remind them of theirs, promising that, in His own due time, the Lord would make manifest how the white salamander story fit into the scheme of things. And, only a few months after my mission, that is exactly what happened.

I was all fine with the way things unfolded until I met the son of one of those murdered. He really cannot understand why his dad had to die; from his perspective, the Brethren really dropped the spiritual ball (or else they didn't have it in the first place). It is difficult to know what to say to him, except to cite the example of Alma and Amulek watching the burning wives and children of the believers (who had been run out of town): the deaths served as justification for God's (later) punishment of the wicked.

[Edgar]

Edgar, you may provide for us your bona vides in the experience that Elder Oakes is talking about, in "counseling, comforting and blessing" hundreds of people in the capacity of a General Authority, and then we can decide if you can make the judgement "rings true" or not. Thanks.

I politely decline your offer. I can make the judgement for myself before you give me permission to do so.

[Edgar]

When I was in the MTC (and afterwards) I heard (and later researched) the story of the Tehran, Iran mission.

There was a LDS mission in Iran? Sorry but that doesn't seem correct given the religious beliefs of Iran.

Where did you learn this?

[Rollo Tomasi]

When I was in the MTC (and afterwards) I heard (and later researched) the story of the Tehran, Iran mission. Interestingly, prior to any direct trouble against Americans President Kimball closed the mission there. That is an awesome example of discernment (the American hostages were taken only a few months later). Similarly, when the Falkland Island crises unfolded (while I was in the MTC) president Kimball, though getting a plane ready, did not close missions or transfer droves of missionaries to other missions; he discerned that the crisis would not lead to a terribly disruptive war.

We all have "discernment" to some degree; my point is that Hofmann exposed that Church leaders generally have no greater powers of discernment than anyone else.

[helix]

We all have "discernment" to some degree; my point is that Hofmann exposed that Church leaders generally have no greater powers of discernment than anyone else.

One example "exposed" all this?

Is there *any* church controversy that you do not bash the church down and side with the critics on?

[Rollo Tomasi]

One example "exposed" all this?

Is there *any* church controversy that you do not bash the church down and side with the critics on?

This "one example" was a pretty dramatic one, in which Church history was being re-written and two persons were murdered. And this "one example" was ongoing for over 5 years and 40-plus deals.

I'm not "bashing" the Church -- just pointing out that over the history of the Church the myth has arisen that Church leaders enjoy greater discernment than others, when in fact they likely don't.

And the only side I come down on is that of truth.

[Paul Osborne]

When I was in the MTC (and afterwards) I heard (and later researched) the story of the Tehran, Iran mission.

[cinepro]

There was a LDS mission in Iran? Sorry but that doesn't seem correct given the religious beliefs of Iran.

Where did you learn this?

I was surprised to hear this myself, but if you search for "Tehran" on the Church's website, you'll find this page:

News of the Church

...where it is announced that William J. Attwool is called to be the Mission President in Tehran in 1978.

It seems to me instant perfect descernment is about the same as instant blessings/punishment for following the commandments. Pretty much takes away agency.

That might be true, but it is also irrelevant to the Hoffman case. This wasn't a scenario where one Church leader needed "instant, perfect discernment". The relationship was ongoing with points of contact and decisions being made at many different levels of Church leadership. When excusing Church leaders for their failure to expose the fraud, be sure you know what you're excusing.

[Rollo Tomasi]

I have that famous snapshot of Hofmann surrounded by the brethren somewhere in my files but can't find it.

Here ya go, courtesy of the Tanners:

http://www.utlm.org/images/tracking/trackingp73_a.jpg

[Scottie]

A little off the subject, but I just finished reading Alvin Journeyman by Orson Scott Card.

In the story, the ultimate evil (named the Unmaker) possess a salamander and uses the salamander to communicate with a lady, persuading her to lie about the main character.

When I read that yesterday, Mark Hofmann and the Salamander letter came to mind. I wonder if Card put a little of that into his writings?

[SlackTime]

Personally, I believe that the Lord accomplished much more by allowing this to go forward without "warning" the Brethren of the Church.

It seems to me that the Church, ever eager to get new historical documents, was a little too eager, and this episode served to make everyone a lot more cautious. No harm was done to the Church, at least not in my eyes. I've always known that the leaders of the Church were fallible men who served as best they could under the guidance of the Spirit.

Eventually Hoffman self-destructed as the Lord knew he would. The problems are blown way out of proportion

-SlackTime

[Rollo Tomasi]

Personally, I believe that the Lord accomplished much more by allowing this to go forward without "warning" the Brethren of the Church.

...

No harm was done to the Church, at least not in my eyes.

...

Eventually Hoffman self-destructed as the Lord knew he would. The problems are blown way out of proportion.

I suspect that the Christensen and Sheets families might disagree with you.

[SlackTime]

Personally, I believe that the Lord accomplished much more by allowing this to go forward without "warning" the Brethren of the Church.

...

No harm was done to the Church, at least not in my eyes. 

...

Eventually Hoffman self-destructed as the Lord knew he would. The problems are blown way out of proportion.

I suspect that the Christensen and Sheets families might disagree with you.

Nowhere did I say that no-one suffered, now did I Rollo. Maybe a greater purpose was served however. Only God knows all the answers.

-SlackTime