Mark Hofmann: Where Was

[Rollo Tomasi]

Nowhere did I say that no-one suffered, now did I Rollo. Maybe a greater purpose was served however. Only God knows all the answers.

Your phrase "the problems are blown out of proportion" (I'm sure you did not intend the obvious pun in there) seemed a bit callous to me, given that Hofmann's con eventually led to the cold-blooded murder of 2 innocent people.

[cinepro]

The problems are blown way out of proportion

This is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read in my entire life. I will just assume it comes from ignorance to the details of the situation.

It is difficult to know what to say to him, except to cite the example of Alma and Amulek watching the burning wives and children of the believers (who had been run out of town): the deaths served as justification for God's (later) punishment of the wicked.

The story of Alma and Amulek has always inspired me. Specifically, it has inspired me to not help other people when it might interfere with the free-agency of someone else.

For example, consider these situations, and what we can learn from the story of Alma and Amulek:

If I am walking down the street, and a murderer lays in wait, could God inspire me to turn around and go the other way? If he did so, would that infringe on the murderer's agency?

If I am walking down the street, and see a woman about to be raped in an ally and hear her cry out, what should my response be:

1. "I'm sorry ma'm, but that man has his free agency. We learn in Alma 13 that God allows these things to happen so evil men can be judged righteously. I would love to help you and stop this terrible event from happening, but that would be Satan's plan. I'll leave a pass-along card for the missionaries from my Church here on the ground, and you can find out more from them if you're interested. Cheerio!"

2. Interfere with the rapist's free agency and help her.

Either way, I'm sure victims of abuse at the hands of LDS authority figures will find your arguments comforting and persuasive.

This argument almost appears to lead to a "deist" line of thought, where God created the Earth and Mankind, but doesn't get involved in the day-to-day affairs of people for good or for worse. Yet, LDS believe we can influence God to act on our behalf if we stop eating, or pray enough. How can that be reconciled with the idea that God won't act if it actually has any influence on anybody's "agency"?

[SlackTime]

Nowhere did I say that no-one suffered, now did I Rollo.  Maybe a greater purpose was served however.  Only God knows all the answers.

Your phrase "the problems are blown out of proportion" (I'm sure you did not intend the obvious pun in there) seemed a bit callous to me, given that Hofmann's con eventually led to the cold-blooded murder of 2 innocent people.

I feel terrible that you misconstrued what appears to me to be a very simple and easily understood phrase.

-SlackTime

[charity]

We are bordering on hysteria here. God could step in and prevent every single bad thing that has ever or will ever happen. He could have turned the hurricanes away, He could have told the prophet to tell the FAA to stop those five airplanes, He could have told President Hinckley that Hoffman was going to blow people up. Your argument is with God, not with the Brethren.

[Rollo Tomasi]

Your argument is with God, not with the Brethren.

No it's not; it's with those who promote the idea that the Brethren's mantle gives them some greater mystical power to discern.

[cdowis]

>Discernment was not manifested by the prophets at that time.

That is correct. Mark Hoffman was aparently able to deceive the leaders of the church, and several experts, that his documents were authentic.

Now what?

[charity]

Rollo said his argument is "with those who promote the idea that the Brethren's mantle gives them some greater mystical power to discern."

Then you are talking to the wrong group of people. If you can find some few people out there who believe the prophet is infallible, why aren't you talking to them?

[Zakuska]

Prophets being deceived...

Don't forget about the Story in 1 Kings 13:

http://scriptures.lds.org/1_kgs/13/24#24

A true Prophet gets deceived by another Prophet and fails the test. Ending up in the kitty litter.

[Rollo Tomasi]

Rollo said his argument is "with those who promote the idea that the Brethren's mantle gives them some greater mystical power to discern."

Then you are talking to the wrong group of people. If you can find some few people out there who believe the prophet is infallible, why aren't you talking to them?

I never said "infallible" -- just the idea that the Brethren's discernment ability is better than that of others, simply because of their calling. The Hofmann affair put that myth to rest, imo.

[Confidential Informant]

Actually, the argument is that their calling entitles them to such discernment. There calling is no guarantee that they will take advantage of such an entitlement or make use of the gift as it is offered. One would hope that they would, but as has been amply shown here, there is certainly precedent for Prophets who did not.

So we are back the question: So what?

C.I.

[Kevin Christensen]

I would have thought that the statement in the D&C that "Ye cannot always tell the wicked and the righteous" should have served. As should Samuel's selections for King, going from Saul to David.

I have noticed that the guarentee on prophets in the Doctrine and Covenants is clearly limited to "expedience." That permits them to accomplish the Lord's purposes without depriving them of the valuable experience of learning from our mistakes.

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[gaucho]

Take a moment to consider what might have happened had the Hoffman affair taken a different route. Suppose the brethern came out and said these documents are forgeries. This, in spite of the fact that every expert who has examined them declared them to be authentic. Our critics would have a field day. They would scream from the rooftops that we are in denial. The evidence is there, it is for all to see and we refuse to acknowledge it. We are rejecting it because it destroys our history and faith as we know it. The world would then see us as being blind as to reality and not willing to accept what has been proven. In this scenario, the issue would never have escalated to the point it did. No murders, no murder investigation, and thus no discovery that the documents were fake and possibly never detecting Hoffman to be a fraud.

The good point is, some innocent lives would have been spared, the bad point is, the world would look at us as denying evidence and refusing to admit our History is flawed. It would cause a severe blow to our missionary efforts.

I think the Lord was wise in the way it was handled. He kept the bretheren in the dark as to the forgeries for a wise purpose. This was the better end result. Not trying to downplay the loss of innocent lives, but that is the price that sometimes has to be paid.

[MorningStar]

Maybe Hoffman would've hurt a lot more people had the GA's refused to buy his documents? You never know.

[Rollo Tomasi]

I think the Lord was wise in the way it was handled. He kept the bretheren in the dark as to the forgeries for a wise purpose. This was the better end result. Not trying to downplay the loss of innocent lives, but that is the price that sometimes has to be paid.

Wouldn't it have been easier if, instead, the Lord simply had exposed Hofmann to just one of the 5 prophets, seers and revelators in the 1980 picture with Hofmann (linked in prior post on this thread), who then could have said to Hofmann, "You're a phony; get the hell out of here"? That would have put an immediate kibosh on Hofmann's budding LDS document business.

[kawikadave]

The Brethren do not have any greater discernment than the rest of us.

It's obvious Rollo, since you have at least 50 different things they should address immediately, MMM being at the top of the list as most important. You clearly have greater discernment than any of them, based on your insight here.

Hopefully they're reading and will take your inspired advice.

Why do you think they haven't done that already?

I know why! They lack discernment, right? A very circular problem, isn't it? They lack discernment so they can't see that they lack discernment.

That's where Rollo comes in to set them straight on so many issues...

[Rollo Tomasi]

You clearly have greater discernment than any of them, based on your insight here.

Hopefully they're reading and will take your inspired advice.

My opinions are not discernment, just opinions. And never underestimate the ability of voicing one's opinions to bring about positive change.

[charity]

Rollo, that is what raised my hackles. You seem to have the idea that you are here to change the Church. God is in charge. I thought you knew that.

[gaucho]

I think the Lord was wise in the way it was handled. He kept the bretheren in the dark as to the forgeries for a wise purpose. This was the better end result. Not trying to downplay the loss of innocent lives, but that is the price that sometimes has to be paid.

Wouldn't it have been easier if, instead, the Lord simply had exposed Hofmann to just one of the 5 prophets, seers and revelators in the 1980 picture with Hofmann (linked in prior post on this thread), who then could have said to Hofmann, "You're a phony; get the hell out of here"? That would have put an immediate kibosh on Hofmann's budding LDS document business.

The only problem with that is, the world doesn't look to the Mormon Prophet for answers. While Hoffman would know the Prophet was on to him, the world would follow the so called experts who had verified again and again the authenticity of his documents. If the Prophet publicly came out and denounced him, that certainly would put an end to his document dealing, as church members would no longer want anything to do with them, but the world would look at that as a move on our part to save face and live in denial as to our true History.

[Scottie]

I think the Lord was wise in the way it was handled. He kept the bretheren in the dark as to the forgeries for a wise purpose. This was the better end result. Not trying to downplay the loss of innocent lives, but that is the price that sometimes has to be paid.

Wouldn't it have been easier if, instead, the Lord simply had exposed Hofmann to just one of the 5 prophets, seers and revelators in the 1980 picture with Hofmann (linked in prior post on this thread), who then could have said to Hofmann, "You're a phony; get the hell out of here"? That would have put an immediate kibosh on Hofmann's budding LDS document business.

The only problem with that is, the world doesn't look to the Mormon Prophet for answers. While Hoffman would know the Prophet was on to him, the world would follow the so called experts who had verified again and again the authenticity of his documents. If the Prophet publicly came out and denounced him, that certainly would put an end to his document dealing, as church members would no longer want anything to do with them, but the world would look at that as a move on our part to save face and live in denial as to our true History.

How did they figure out they were forgeries in the first place? Didn't the Tanner's have something to do with that? Or did Hofmann finally admit?

[Confidential Informant]

Actually, the forgeries weren't discovered until George Throckmorton and a few other forensic experts spent about two weeks, IIRC, of exhaustive, intense, microscopic review and comparison of known authentic documents against suspected Hoffman forgeries.

The key was in the ink. Hoffman's ink showed microscopic cracking when viewed under a microscope which the authentic documents did not show.

The Tanners also had their suspicions as to the authenticity of the documents, as did at least one historian at USU, but their objections were, as I recall, based on content.

C.I.

[Rollo Tomasi]

Rollo, that is what raised my hackles. You seem to have the idea that you are here to change the Church. God is in charge. I thought you knew that.

So where was God those 5 years when Hofmann was conning the Church? It's obvious that God allows man to make many mistakes, even by His servants. Is it your contention that the Brethren can never learn anything from us regular folk?

[Zakuska]

If Im not mistaken... The brethern are us regular folks.

[kawikadave]

My opinions are not discernment, just opinions.

Come on now. You're being too modest. Discernment begets opinions.

dis

[cdowis]

>Wouldn't it have been easier if, instead, the Lord simply had exposed Hofmann to just one of the 5 prophets, seers and revelators

This is an indicator on how very little we understand how the Lord runs his business. He has been at this work for a very long time, and can see from eternity ot eternity.

[kawikadave]

So where was God those 5 years when Hofmann was conning the Church? It's obvious that God allows man to make many mistakes, even by His servants. Is it your contention that the Brethren can never learn anything from us regular folk?

Yes, God allows man to make many mistakes, even his prophets.

However, that premise is not what you said. You said "the Brethren do not have any greater discernment than the rest of us."

That, I would say, is a falsehood and poor logic on your part.

Just because a prophet is not perfect and can make mistakes does not mean he has no greater discernment than the average person.

Would you apply that logic to Peter? He made the mistake of thinking the gospel would be preached only to the Jews (or maybe he was just waiting for instructions).

An honest mistake or misunderstanding.

Then the Lord showed him what he wanted done in a vision. (Funny, it wasn't because of Gentile protestors who shouted that the current policy was racist.)

The policy was then changed.

Was Peter human and fallible? Yes.

Was the will of the Lord revealed to him? Yes.

Did he have greater discernment than anyone else on the planet at that time? Yes.

Were protests and cage rattling necessary to change the policy? No.

I pity the fool who compares his discernment and judgement with those of the prophets.