Mark Hofmann: Where Was

[charity]

Rollo, when you ask "Where was God those 5 years?" you really stepped up the level of discourse. Now you aren't just wanting to counsel the Brethren but God. Do you think voicing your opinion is going to bring about a positive change in God? Hey, everybody, either stand back from Rollo, or be sure you are thorougly grounded!

[Rollo Tomasi]

... but the world would look at that as a move on our part to save face and live in denial as to our true History.

Sort of like when GBH bought the 1825 Josiah Stowell money-digging letter directly from Hofmann for $15,000 on January 11, 1983 (which was thought to contain the earliest known handwriting of JS), had it put away in the First Presidency vault (without telling church historians about it), and then didn't disclose that the Church possessed such an important letter until May 3, 1985?

[Rollo Tomasi]

Come on now. You're being too modest. Discernment begets opinions.

dis

[kawikadave]

The type of "discernment" we've been talking about on this thread is from God -- quite a bit different than mere "opinion," don't ya think?

Well, is your premise then "The Brethren do not have any greater [spiritual] discernment than the rest of us"?

Really? You believe that? Your own spiritual discernment (the Spirit) testifies of that?

They have no greater spiritual insight or judgement than you or me? Has this always been the case? Is this the case with Bishops as well?

Do you believe in a Bishop's spiritual mantle? Do you believe in a prophet's spiritual mantle?

[Rollo Tomasi]

However, that premise is not what you said. You said "the Brethren do not have any greater discernment than the rest of us."

...

Just because a prophet is not perfect and can make mistakes does not mean he has no greater discernment than the average person.

...

Would you apply that logic to Peter? He made the mistake of thinking the gospel would be preached only to the Jews (or maybe he was just waiting for instructions).

...

Then the Lord showed him what he wanted done in a vision.

I can think of no better instance in recent times that discernment (if it exists to a greater extent among Church leaders by virtue of their callings) was called for than the Hofmann affair. And there was nada, zilch ... for over 5 years ... involving 40-plus deals ... as well as involving several of the Brethren who dealt with Hofmann ... and even after Hofmann, as a newly-minted murderer, met with Dallin Oaks and Hugh Pinnock ... that related to rewriting Church history. Why? Because Hofmann conned everyone, including the experts, and the Brethren were not immune from the con, nor were they protected from some sort of greater power of discernment.

We are not talking about one Peter here -- were are talking about several "Peters." We are not talking about a one-time mistake here -- we are talking about innumerable mistakes over a 5-year period. We are not talking about one's "honest mistake" or "misunderstanding" about to whom to preach the gospel -- we are talking about a premeditated and concerted effort to deceive and rewrite Church history. And, finally, at least Peter got a vision -- the Brethren got nothing (instead, they had to rely on George Throckmorton's ink tests).

[charity]

Rollo, I know I am repeating myself, but you are on such thin ice for chiding Heavenly Father for not dealing differently with Hoffman. You are scary!

[Rollo Tomasi]

Well, is your premise then "The Brethren do not have any greater [spiritual] discernment than the rest of us"?

Really? You believe that? Your own spiritual discernment (the Spirit) testifies of that?

They have no greater spiritual insight or judgement than you or me?

I think we all are entitled to discernment from God. I just don't think one's "mantle" or calling or office gives him any greater degree of discernment than any of the rest of us. I don't think one's "mantle," calling or office gives him any greater right to commune with the heavens than any of the rest of us, or vice versa.

This is only my opinion, of course.

[Tchild2]

Charity wrote:

Rollo, I know I am repeating myself, but you are on such thin ice for chiding Heavenly Father for not dealing differently with Hoffman. You are scary!

I was going to stop coming here so as to get more done at work, but this place is a hoot!

[Rollo Tomasi]

Rollo, I know I am repeating myself, but you are on such thin ice for chiding Heavenly Father for not dealing differently with Hoffman. You are scary!

I'm not chiding Heavenly Father at all -- I'm chiding the man-made myth that has blossomed in the LDS Church that the Brethren have greater discernment simply by virtue of their calling and office.

[cdowis]

>we are talking about innumerable mistakes over a 5-year period. We are not talking about one's "honest mistake" or "misunderstanding" about to whom to preach the gospel -- we are talking about a premeditated and concerted effort to deceive and rewrite Church history.

Can you share with us your concept of the prophet, as compared to a fortune teller, a crystal ball reader, etc.

It has become clear to me that you do not comprehend the nature of the prophetic calling.

The purpose of a prophet is to do.... what? according to your understanding.

<man-made myth that has blossomed in the LDS Church that the Brethren have greater discernment simply by virtue of their calling and office.

Could you please give us some specific references to this myth, specifically regarding the authentication of historical documents, or the discernment of temporal falsehoods. I am only aware of discernment regarding spiritual truth, but perhaps with your wide-ranging knowledge, you have other things in mind.

I am very interested in those references.

[Rollo Tomasi]

Could you please give us some specific references to this myth, specifically regarding the authentication of historical documents, or the discernment of temporal falsehoods. I am only aware of discernment regarding spiritual truth, but perhaps with your wide-ranging knowledge, you have other things in mind.

Here's one:

"In its fullest manifestation the gift of the discerning of spirits is poured out upon presiding officials in God's kingdom; they have it given to them to discern all gifts and all spirits, lest any come among the saints and practice deception." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 197).

Do you disagree that Hofmann would fall into the category of one who came among the saints and practiced deception?

[tubaloth]

Do you disagree that Hofmann would fall into the category of one who came among the saints and practiced deception?

I don

[T-Shirt]

Could you please give us some specific references to this myth, specifically regarding the authentication of historical documents, or the discernment of temporal falsehoods.

[kawikadave]

Rollo, I guess you would also say that a Bishop or Stake President has no mantle of discernment because you know a friend or relative that lied about something in their interview and they couldn't tell.

That proves it, right?

It seems you expect a 100% hit rate for fraud detection. With the Hoffman affair, the prophets didn't live up to your expectation so they are now just men with no additional discernment or spiritual gifts.

Bishops also fall well short of an acceptable level of fraud detection so their mantle is a myth and a legend to you.

No wonder you believe so firmly in rattling the cage to create change from the bottom up. They're just a bunch of old stodgy men with no special God-given gift and require pressure from smarter men and women with better discernment.

[Moon Quaker]

I'm sure the Lord was busy with more important things during Hofmann's shenanigans; (he was probably making a draft copy of the "Only one set of earrings" doctrine that he would later reveal to GBH.)

[kawikadave]

I'm sure the Lord was busy with more important things during Hofmann's shenanigans; (he was probably making a draft copy of the "Only one set of earrings" doctrine that he would later reveal to GBH.)

Laugh it up Moon Man!

[Moon Quaker]

Laugh it up Moon Man! 

Will do Kawika Man!

[cdowis]

>Do you disagree that Hofmann would fall into the category of one who came among the saints and practiced deception?

Let's see. You quote "Mormon Doctrine" which is not Mormon doctrine. And you misapplied and misinterpreted what he said.

I do agree that you are very confused and lost. Instead of studying the antimormon interpretation of LDS doctrines, you really ought to study the scriptures.

If you were to open the scriptures and study them, you would discover that the "deception" is false doctrine, and is not speaking of the used car salesman form of deception ("Have I got a deal for you.")

Please note that the GA's made NO position on the authenticity of these documents, and purchased them for their apparent historical value.

If the saints were deceived by the contents, that was their own responsibility. I made my own choice regarding these documents.

[Paul Osborne]

Look, it

[Rollo Tomasi]

So to answer your question, no, Hofmann does not fit the description that you are trying to wedge him into. Elder McConkie was referring to the responsibility of presiding authorities to identify true gifts of the spirit.

Does anyone really dispute that Mark Hofmann, a professed believing and active LDS member (i.e., one who was "among the saints"), was "practicing deception" in rewriting Church history with his forgeries? His "practice of deception" was serious enough to get him in the Ensign and Church News, as well as cause GBH and Dallin Oaks to give public speeches relating to documents he had "discovered."

And I have never claimed that Church leaders are infallible or entitled to discernment all the time -- I have said repeatedly that I don't believe Church leaders have discernment in any greater frequency or abundance than anyone else. Thus, their being conned by Hofmann, just like everyone else, is very understandable to me. It is those who believe or promote the belief that Church leaders enjoy greater discernment simply by virtue of their calling, who have a lot of explaining to do, because clearly their belief/teaching in this regard does not jive with the reality exposed by the Hofmann affair.

Moreover, this lack of discernment occurred for a period of over 5 years and dozens of of deals. During that time, at various times, Hofmann personally met with no less than 8 G.A.'s. Wake up and smell the roses, friend.

[Rollo Tomasi]

Please note that the GA's made NO position on the authenticity of these documents, and purchased them for their apparent historical value.

The issue is their discernment of Hofmann -- his intentions in bringing those documents to the Church. This is not so much an issue of the Brethren's knowing whether the documents were phony, but rather, knowing that Hofmann was a lying fraud with the intent to destroy the Church (and ultimately capable of murder).

[Rollo Tomasi]

I

[Edgar]

Could you please give us some specific references to this myth, specifically regarding the authentication of historical documents, or the discernment of temporal falsehoods.  I am only aware of discernment regarding spiritual truth, but perhaps with your wide-ranging knowledge, you have other things in mind.

Here are some references about what you call a myth.

These are not specific to authentication of historical documents. Rather, they are general scriptures and comments from church leaders about leaders of the church being able to discern good from evil by the power of the Holy Ghost and the duty of church leaders to protect the church.

You may find some of these to be out of context but I am likening the scriptures and comments from church leaders to myself and this issue as Nephi suggests.

Heb. 4: 12

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Alma 5: 59

59 For what shepherd is there among you having many sheep doth not watch over them, that the wolves enter not and devour his flock? And behold, if a wolf enter his flock doth he not drive him out? Yea, and at the last, if he can, he will destroy him.

D&C 46: 27

27 And unto the bishop of the church, and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be elders unto the church, are to have it given unto them to discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God.

Guide to the Scriptures from LDS.org

Discernment, Gift of

To understand or know something through the power of the Spirit. The gift of discernment is one of the gifts of the Spirit. It includes perceiving the true character of people and the source and meaning of spiritual manifestations.

Gifts of the Spirit

Covet earnestly the best gifts, 1 Cor. 12: 31 (1 Cor. 14: 1). The Nephites were given many gifts of the Spirit, Alma 9: 21. Wo to him who says the Lord no longer works by gifts or by the power of the Holy Ghost, 3 Ne. 29: 6. God gives gifts to the faithful, Morm. 9: 7. Gifts come by the Spirit of Christ, Moro. 10: 17. There are many gifts and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit, D&C 46: 11. Church leaders are given power to discern the gifts of the Spirit, D&C 46: 27. The President of the Church has all the gifts of God, D&C 107: 92.

Judge, Judgment

To evaluate behavior in relation to the principles of the gospel; to decide; to discern good from evil.

Carlos Asay

Tambuli Aug 1988

Would you like to have powers of discernment

[Dale]

"In its fullest manifestation the gift of the discerning of spirits is poured out upon presiding officials in God's kingdom; they have it given to them to discern all gifts and all spirits, lest any come among the saints and practice deception." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 197).

Do you disagree that Hofmann would fall into the category of one who came among the saints and practiced deception?

With the gift of discernment are we expecting a revelation, or subjective feelings that may, or may not be a warning? I could see doubts & questions being pushed aside that came from the gift of discernment. They had document experts that said the items based on available tests were authentic.

One thing you could discern about Hofman at the time was that he was in the business to make a lot of money. You could discern he was a worldly kind of guy easily. But excercising discernment about him and excercising discernment about the documents he cooked up is a whole different story.

[Rollo Tomasi]

With the gift of discernment are we expecting a revelation, or subjective feelings that may, or may not be a warning? I could see doubts & questions being pushed aside that came from the gift of discernment.

I guess it depends on the individual, but in the Hofmann affair, if there was discernment about his true nature and intent, then it would have had to be pushed aside or ignored by at least the 8 of the Brethren who met with him personally over 5 years and numerous transactions.