Calm

Why was he even appointed then? (Reading the article now, looks like it will answer that for me)

Depends on how you define “fall”.

I would definitely agree we can’t make a complete explanation about this. Besides informing Moses about their existence, God tells him that’s it, he is not sharing more info on them. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/moses/1?lang=eng

Yep, they used to be much more willing to post speculation in church magazines back then as well as all sorts of advice (just check out the table of contents). Reasonable speculation following from what has been revealed, but it might still be inaccurate because of misinterpretation of what has been revealed imo.

Newly joined poster? The spam issue has been solved?

Decision paralysis…too many choices leads to no choice, very common. It was probably the biggest reason I rarely went out to eat once I realized I could not make just as good a meal as a restaurant if it was something besides waffles (better than any restaurant I have gone to) or chicken and dumplings (definitely as good as and much cheaper) and a few other dishes. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-power-of-parallels/202406/navigating-your-way-out-of-decision-paralysis#:~:text=Fear of judgment.,or could lead to criticism. I hate, hate, hate it when my husband says “whatever you want” (especially when it’s not really whatever I want since I love Asian and other cuisines he’s not that fond of).

Lol, the “I don’t think….” Usually that would be written without the return spacing, wouldn’t it? Lots of people leave off periods and are careless with capitalization these days, so I assumed that is what happened. My bad.

Just an fyi, but Ben Spackman iirc has pointed out that “many wives” is defined in Jewish tradition as more than four wives (Jacob had four wives). The problem was not polygyny itself, but excess polygyny because iirc one cannot treat all wives considerately with more than four in terms of time and caring. (Added: This last is my addition remembering discussion on this that may not have come from Ben as he was focused on the kings having many wives). Nope, it’s @Benjamin McGuire, maybe he will notice this and pop in and correct my understanding if I have conflated others’ ideas with his. For those who don’t have Deu 17:17 on instant recall: New International Version He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold. New Living Translation The king must not take many wives for himself, because they will turn his heart away from the LORD. And he must not accumulate large amounts of wealth in silver and gold for himself…. King James Bible Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold. https://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/17-17.htm This more recent thread has a more detailed post from Ben (the archived on has posts cut off, so details could be missing) his comments continue here https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75542-is-polygamy-eternal/page/5/#findComment-1210167098

But we speak of being sealed in the here and now and our children of being born in the covenant, so while being sealed has the promise of continuing our relationship as a couple (I use this rather than marriage as marriage can also refer to the legal, nonreligious contract that won’t be relevant once we are dead), that is not all it is and it may even not be its main purpose (I think we need to understand what a sealing actually entails before we can know its primary purpose). There is also the sealing that takes place between the parent and the child, which can be of the same sex. Sealings are spoken of as on earth as in heaven, so they have implications for the here and now, not just the afterlife. Parking this here in case it’s helpful. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2023/10/15christofferson?lang=eng (sealing power by Christofferson, Oct 2023)

You view all lies as intending to harm?*** There is no thing as a white lie? Or are you claiming that site conveys Joseph wanted to harm or take advantage of others and so deceived them? Because if that is Brian Hales’ site, I find that very hard to believe. ***”snake” in this context is meant to convey danger and intent to harm imo

Anyone know what his duties were? How much of a spiritual leader/teacher was he considered as opposed to being involved in more temporal things (overseeing administrative stuff, welfare, etc)…what the Presiding Bishopric is seen as in a lot of ways. Hopefully that question makes sense.

I was going to post this next time I popped into the thread, lol. How can one get back on the path if they are in apostasy? Not only has doctrine been confused, but authority lost and authority matters a great deal in LDS theology. It would be at the very least “blind leading the blind”. At that point to get back to the path, a restoration will need to occur and we would anticipate that as happening outside what would then be viewed as the mainstream church, since it’s apostate and too influenced by falsehoods and likely false traditions.

I have never heard of it as referencing individual churches. I think one would need to hold a worldview or be familiar with one that all Christian churches are part of a greater Church of Christ to register that possibility. I don’t know if that was an idea Joseph Smith was exposed to, though the Book of Mormon referring to only two Churches, one of Christ and one of the Devil could be a reference to that idea, but the numbers of the Church of the Lamb of God are few in contrast to the actual membership of all Christian churches. Most (vast majority) members understand the Church of the Lamb of God in this time period is the Restored Church in my experience and it’s been presented that way in manuals in magazines iirc. My memory is that part of the narrative about his confusion over which church to join was induced because preachers would speak of cooperating together to bring people to Christ, but then conflict would arise because of attempting to draw converts to their own congregations (and the narrative usually implied for less worthy motives which isn’t necessarily accurate imo).

But the Bible is a religious, not a secular text, so shouldn’t religious context be assumed rather than a secular one unless more local context indicates a secular use? Does Biblical Greek (since we aren't talking anbout modern Greek, I am not sure why you mention prefixes) always use prefixes in cases where there would have been ambiguity if the context didn’t make a possible definition clearly the one meant? If I happen to pick up just the word “bread” being used in a conference talk I am listening to but can hardly hear for a moment because of background noise, I am thinking it’s either referring to sacrament bread or a religious symbolic usage such as “I am the bread of life” rather than how my kids would ask me to pick up some bread from market or in a show that’s a period piece, it might be used secularly to refer to money. I wouldn’t assume without the qualifier “sacrament” or a quote using the term symbolically that it was meant to be a secular, generic “bread”.

How much Greek have you learned and from what (online apps, college courses, native speakers, etc) out of curiosity? I may have missed it, but I don’t remember reading your training for reading and translating Greek.

Never mind my question, should have finished reading. Is Bauer’s lexicon viewed as influenced by theology as Strong’s often is iirc?

Where are you getting the meanings from, specifically this one “a delegate specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ [“apostle”] (with miraculous powers)”

I don’t understand, how can the “good people of the earth” be described as being “spirits of the wicked” once they die? That implies to me they were wicked on earth, not good. And why would they choose to learn the Gospel when they accepted possession by the spirit of the devil?

Not that familiar with these early writings or development of thought, I need to get past the mental block that sources are hard to access though I would prefer to learn them in a more academic setting rather than just read them to avoid my bias getting in the way as much. Lack of that kind of knowledge means I am approaching it more from a psychological standpoint here. It makes more sense to me (logical and emotional) that all would go to the same place after death and it being their internal state making the difference of how they perceive their existence as paradise or misery. It is a very human scenario. I don’t really see any benefit to dividing people up into bad, better, best and sending them to three different places, especially if all are still at some learning stage in their life with a vast variety of needs (each person would need to experience a different set of opportunities to learn to balance out where they lacked). The most likely thing to permanently change the hearts of the wicked, imo, is to be among the better and the best so they can see for themselves what they are missing and be drawn by any remnant of healthy desires in their hearts towards goodness and love. Fear and pain may open one up to wanting something, anything different, but to change in positive ways, they need to be able to imagine what they want and that may not be something they have truly experienced before and so need to see positive examples of others, most likely in a variety of circumstances until they find something that resonates with them….assuming here that the next life isn’t dramatically different from this one at the beginning and it’s the infinite nature of eternity and perfection that drive the differences, especially the currently incomprehensible ones. But it’s also a very human condition to categorize, even people, so that possibility isn’t illogical to me, especially since scripture is full of language of dividing the sheep from the goats, though that seems more focused on judgment time. The only strong reason I see for division of humanity immediately after death is to protect the better and best people (in terms of righteousness and love) from the corrupt ones who still desire to use others or even hurt them, but it seems likely this could be a simple fix if our spirits are capable of perceiving true thoughts and feelings in others better than in mortality. My guess is masking won’t work in the next life. And the wicked won’t be in positions of power by force at least, if at all. Interesting ideas getting triggered for me by this discussion. And helpful insights…and the always useful reminder to keep a close eye on my assumptions. Thank you, Navidad, for wanting to explore these beliefs in spite of the difficulties you must be going through at the moment.

Do you mean describes or doesn’t describe?

Same here….except for fairly plain. It’s ‘words’ and half of words are the assumptions we attach to them, so not really plain.

That’s why I think it is so helpful to have people talk about the views of ideas even when it’s not their belief. I had been assuming what was a clear division in my eyes actually rests on one word in the description “also” that was ambiguous (could have meant “in addition to…, there is…” or “included with”) and my assumptions of what would ‘naturally’ be required (why would seekers be in hell?”)

You have a literal, concrete mind perhaps? Not a problem, just helps to know for communication. I am more of a metaphoric, symbolic reader, seeing words used as shorthand and placeholder for things we can’t really understand as the beasts on Ezekiel were described as creatures, but were symbols of God’s attributes. If it’s literal, then the manisions exist inside another building (in his father House), so can’t be that big. And remember the word translated as mansion might not actually mean that just as candle wasn’t what Jesus said. He was talking about an oil lamp.

Having gone and read the current and past Church stuff thinking about what assumptions I am bringing to the discussion that may not be accurate (a two part spirit prison, where one part is for those still open to learning even if it’s a struggle and the other for those who have fully rejected the gospel after knowing enough about it, refusing the mercy of Christ which they had to understand before they could reject it), I then went and talked to the young ladies who are here cleaning my house to find out how they have been taught about what happens in the next life and what the implications are in their view. They were more familiar with the idea of the Millennium, how things are taught during that time period. And that got me thinking why wouldn’t it be the same for all since Brigham said the Spirit World was not far from us as well as the same sociability will exist in the next life as here. There are people who describe their lives as hell right now and I think some are justified in doing so, though likely a less intense version if we think of Alma’s experience given they still need to function. Anyway, going to think about what the ladies told me and put it in more sense making form than it is in my head at the moment, but that will have to wait as I need to play executive assistant to my daughter again.

Why not?