california boy

Whatever. Denying gay couples full participation in the church is a bit more important than dry baptism. Sorry you can't see that and just blow off this issue as being unimportant. I guess it doesn't really matter all that much. Those that don't like the policy can and do just leave the Church. It is one of the most common reasons for people leaving. Not just those that are gay, but brothers. sisters, parents and children that know people that are gay and don't feel quite as glib as you do about this issue. Not seeing that kind of thing happening over your dry baptism comparison. Personally, I don't really care all that much. I wouldn't go back to the Church if they did change the policy. I have found a very happy and fulfilling life outside of the Church. I just feel bad for those that are affected by this policy that want to desperately stay in the Church without forfeiting a chance of the happiness and experience that marriage brings. What I say to you is, just don't make some claim that this policy came from God when there is no such revelation claimed. That is my only point.

Thanks for clarifying what you said. The part that confused me is when you said: "the Church’s position SSM…which I believe is based on a belief in revelation". I took that to mean you believed there was some kind of revelation on SSM. I thought I might have missed something.

I wanted to thank you for posting this link to the interview. I have never listened to John Delhin before. I just thought John Delhin was an angry ex-Mormon trying to expose ugly things about the Church. Maybe he is that. I don't really know since this is my first time listening to one of his podcasts. What I do know is that in at least this podcast, I found him to want to understand why this former bishop left the Church. I found Nick and his wife Amanda to be very believable and authentic about where they came from and how they got to this point. After listening to him, it is hard to believe some of the things that have been said about him on this board. I guess since I have listened to this podcast, I should investigate what horrible things he has said on TicTok. I know most of you will never give him the time to explain himself. But at least Teddy has given me the opportunity to just click and see what he has to say unfiltered by either side of the judgements of others.

Wait. Are you saying that the ban on same sex anything is based on revelation???? As far as I know, there has never been a claim about any revelation concerning same sex anything. If you have such a revelation declared, I would love to hear about such a claim.

Are we really going to try and set up laws just in case there are crappy parents and crappy doctors out there? Where would that start and end. I can think of literally dozens of things crappy parents do to their children. And just who would turn in crappy parents and crappy doctors? What kind of penalties would the government impose on crappy parents that make bad decisions for their children? Take them away from them if they allow puberty blockers? Imprison them?

Certainly anything like that should be taken into consideration.

I sincerely believe whether to use puberty blockers is a medical evaluation along with parental consent to decide what is best for THEIR child. Everyone is different and should not be all grouped together in a decision like that. For example if the child is suisidal, as a parent I would be much more willing to take the risks of puberty blockers side effects. What I am certain about is the government has no voice in this very individual decision. I do believe that surgical alterations should not be performed on minors in almost all cases. My viewpoint is, they will have their whole lives to transition, having patience is a prudent thing to consider. Even still, it is not a decision the government needs to be involved in. It is clearly a parent/doctor/child decision. I don't fit anywhere in that equation.

What the heck does this have to do with anything I have asked you?? You are just rambling about things that are not part of my conversations with you. Where the heck did you get this idea??? I never said anything remotely like this. In fact, I infaticly agree that all transgenders are not some monolith that agrees on everything. Neither is the gay community. Neither is the lesbian community, Neither is the bi community. CFR where I said anything like this or take back your accusation. What is the point you were trying to make in this story about your uncle??? That is not exactly like every single other transgender out there?? Since I agree, why did you post this? Since you have acknowledged that the trans community is NOT some monolith, just who is this group you are talking about? Tell me the data you have to make such a statement. What percentage of the trans community is pushing this. CFR. Again, you acknowledge that the trans community is not some monolith that agrees on any of this, just who specifically are you talking about here? The data that was an actual study that I presented reported that only 1% of the trans community regrets making a transition. So are you allowing this 1% to talk for the whole group??? You are good at making your own assumptions, but just tell me where you got the idea that the individuals I posted spent a lot of money to achieve a particular appearance. How the heck do you know what they spent or even if any of them ever spent a dime. I know a couple of trans women. Neither one of them have had any cosmetic surgery, and they both are beautiful and very similar to the link that I posted. I didn't have to do a huge internet search to post that link. Is all I did was go to Google Images and type in transgender women. I agree that transgender people come in all shapes and sizes. Never said they all look a certain way. That is just what Google came up with when I did a search. NOW, this post does not answer ANY of my questions that I asked that you promised that if I answered your questions, you would answer mine. So one last time, answer my questions. Don't keep being a weasel. Quit bringing up nonsense like this. Just answer the damn questions! "Now lets suppose we grant you your wish and make every person use the locker room that matches their birth sex. Let's take a look at what women that transition to men look like. Click here. It means that these women who have all transitioned to be me would be forced to use the woman's locker room. Do you want to force these women who have transitioned to men use the women's locker room? Would women be comfortable with these now men using the locker room? Now lets look at what men look like that have transitioned to be women. Click here Which group look more threatening and objectionable? Yeah I want your answer on this. Or do you think you have the right to just decree that no one is allowed to transition?" Don't give me any of your nonsense. Just answer the questions. You started this whole nonsense. You have distorted and misrepresented events and blown things way out of proportion. You take a little incident that occurred in one place that was handled and tried to make it appear as an epidemic coming down upon us in locker rooms throughout the world. just admit that your posts are nonsense and we can all move on.

Just answer the questions I asked that you PROMISED you would answer if I answered your questions first. Now you are on some new tangent without doing what you promised to do. Quit being such a weasel. Answer the questions. Here is my. post again so you don't even have to scroll to the top of the page.

Oh so the Mormon church is not the only true and living church on the planet because it reversed the ban against blacks that had been doctrine for over 150 years? What do you do with that? If that is the criteria, that ship has already sailed.

No and no. NOW answer my questions. Don't be a weasel. Man up and answer the questions.

I have been reading your posts in this thread and realize you are trying to make a huge case that what? Transgender people shouldn't exist? Is that the goal of your posts? Do you think you have some God given right to control peoples lives like that? Or maybe you are trying to scare everyone that transgenders are invading bathrooms and locker rooms and we should all be up in arms about that. But you seem to be arguing this from a point of incredible weakness. You skip over all the facts, and even if you had presented all of the facts that greatly reduce your reasons for outrage, it is only a small handful of cases in the entire world. WORLD! You had to go to Canada which has different laws than the U.S. So out of a population of 40,528,396 in Canada and 339,996,563 in the U.S, you found just how many cases to be outraged about???? Can you not step back just a little to see how ridiculous your argument is? Honestly, I wish there was only a handful of murders like this, which seems much worse to me. Don't see you going on for pages about that. Why not????? Murder is ok, but a transgender using a locker room is outrageous and should be blown way out of proportion???? Now lets suppose we grant you your wish and make every person use the locker room that matches their birth sex. Let's take a look at what women that transition to men look like. Click here. It means that these women who have all transitioned to be me would be forced to use the woman's locker room. Do you want to force these women who have transitioned to men use the women's locker room? Would women be comfortable with these now men using the locker room? Now lets look at what men look like that have transitioned to be women. Click here Which group look more threatening and objectionable? Yeah I want your answer on this. Or do you think you have the right to just decree that no one is allowed to transition?

What percentage of adolescents even identify as transgender? It wasn't hard for me to Google some basic data on transgender. Only 0.7% of youth 13-17 even identify as transgender. That is less than 1%. The overall percentage of adults 18-65 is at .6%. So pretty consistent with the general population. Does that sound like an epidemic of minors being talked into being transgender???? Pretty hard to justify the narrative that there is a huge adolescent population jumping into transgender as some kind of fad. So it is not like the data is not out there, and someone has to rely on TicTok and Twitter to figure out what is REALLY happening. How many regret doing transgender surgery? "Proponents of these policies often speculate that TGD individuals who undergo gender-affirming surgeries (GAS) would later regret their decision to undergo such procedures. Despite this supposed fear, evidence suggests that less than 1% of TGD individuals who receive GAS report surgical regret.3" So of that 0.6% who identify as transgender only 1% of those ever regret doing the surgery. That is a crazy low percentage, and nothing like @LoudmouthMormon tried to convince us using Twitter, TikTok and Discord instead of real scientific data.

My opinion is that I have no right to control the lives of any of the people you mentioned. But I do emphatically believe they have the absolute right to live their lives the way they see fit as long as the choices they make does not harm others, Even God gives them that right. If there are consequences to the choices they make then that is entirely theirs to deal with. BUT I nor anyone else in this world has any right to interfere with their lives including bulling them to get them to conform with your own personal views. It is dishonest and deceitful to spread misinformation on a group that is already marginalized and discriminated against. Shame on you. If you have used real data as the basis of your attacks, then maybe I would have felt the need to investigate further. But, come on, Twitter, TikTok and Discord, as your source. You got to be kidding me. You absolutely loose all credibility when you use Twitter, TikTok and Discord as your source for ANY post. Back it up with real data like Nehor did. Dig a little deeper like Nehor did who totally obliterated the credibility of Cat Cattinson, your star source of all of your misinformation. Get a grip. I have not read what Twitter, TikTok and Discord say about Mormons. Should I? Is what they are saying accurate? You have been dealing with critics of your faith online for 30 years. Do you find what is said about Mormons on Twitter, TikTok and Discord to be accurate and a good place to find out the "real" information about Mormonism? Would you direct those interested in the Church to Twitter, TikTok and Discord as the best source to find the"real" truth about Mormonism over what the Church publishes? If not, why not????? I don't rely on those voices to form my opinions about Mormonis. I was a member for over 40 years. Served in bishopric, was on the high counsel, taught seminary, went on a mission. THAT is where I form my opinions about Mormonism. And frankly I don't care whether or not you believe my experience with the Church. You can believe anything you want. I would hope that you would find better references than Twitter, TikTok and Discord . Frankly, I can't think of a worse way to go about understanding any of those groups. When you start spreading misinformation about transgender people, then you are taking issue with transgender people. My gut reaction to what you wrote using Twitter, TikTok and Discord AS YOUR REFERENCE is about the worse possible way you could use to find truth about ANYTHING. Try real data instead of crap people post on social media that they post mainly to get attention. Did you know that all Mormons are brainwashed? Yeah it is absolutely true. I read about it on Twitter posted by a former bishop. And he would know. I am not so disappointed about your post. You have posted this nonsense before. But what really saddens me is that there are no members except Nehor that is bothered that you use Twitter, TikTok and Discord AS YOUR REFERENCE to spread this misinformation about the trans community. These are the same members that are so upset at what the bishop who recently left the Church posted on one of your "treasured" social media sites. Since he posted that Mormons are brainwashed, on Twitter, then it must be true. Are you ok with that????

Honestly to me, it sounds like emotional blackmail.

I definitely like your beliefs in how this all works than the version the Church teaches. And thank you for at least attempting to answer one of my questions. Love to hear your thoughts on some of the other questions that come up.

Is this doctrine or speculation? Do you not think there are actually 3 kingdoms?

Just off the top of my head, these are the things that I see in the Plan of Salvation, or the Plan of Happiness or Covenant Path or whatever the Church is calling it these days that are problematic.. 1. Why 3 kingdoms? Why not just one kingdom and all of us fall somewhere along a gradient path. Let's say, one just misses the Celestial Kingdom and ends up in the Terrestrial Kingdom. Is he in the same place as the person who just makes it into the Terrestrial Kingdom, barely escaping the Telestial Kingdom? Do they both get the same reward? Is that fair? It is like getting a A instead of a B because just one more question was wrong on a test. Some may say that there is progression between the three kingdoms even though that is not Church doctrine. If that is the case, then what difference does it make what kingdom you end up in? In death, you would know way more clearly what you need to do to progress into other kingdoms and could direct your efforts in a much more efficient manner to achieve that goal. So why not just wait and see where you fall, then move forward from that point?? Some say that progression is faster on earth than after we die. Not sure if that is doctrine either. But even if it is, how fair is it that less than 1% of God's children are given the plan on earth to progress, while the rest wander in darkness not having the slightest idea that they are being tested or what the test is? 2.Then there is the whole LGBT issues. Does God punish someone who transitions to a different gender in mortality? Would that be fair if the person had no idea that God cared whether they lived their mortal life as a different sex than they were born with? Just what kind of punishment would be imposed by God for such a decision. Would they be forced to change back into whatever gender they were born on earth to? What if that is a different gender than they had in the preexistence? And if you are gay, then are you punished for finding a loving companion to share this life with? What if you never knew that is something God would punish you for doing? And what kind of punishment would you receive? If you are born straight, then you get to live with your companion for eternity. If you are gay, would you still be able to live with your companion for eternity? If not, why are you punished for that? And what would that punishment look like? If you never want to marry a woman in the next life, are you damned forever just for being gay? Let's say when you die, you will magically be made straight. Would you still be punished for choosing to be with someone of the same sex in mortality? What would that punishment look like? And if you are magically made straight when you die, then what is the point of trying to live a straight life while here on earth? 3. Ordinances and covenants Does anyone really understand the importance and eternal consequences of making or breaking covenants while on earth when they make those covenants? If you don't understand those covenants, then are you punished after this life for breaking those covenants? Is a person under some eternal condemnation for being baptized at 8 because they think their parents want them to, and then leaving the Church because they don't really believe its teachings? Wouldn't it be better to never make any covenants and just wait until after you die to have ordinances done for you, then with a more fully understanding, decide if you want to make such covenants? If it doesn't make any difference whether you make covenants in mortality or after death, then what exactly is so important about joining the Church? And if it is of any importance, why does less that 1% of all humans born get the opportunity to join or the belief that they should join the Church in mortality? I would call less than a 99% failure rate as being about as bad of failure one could possibly make. Do any of you feel like that is some kind of a success plan? 4. Families can be together forever How does that work? Who lives with who? Do you live with your parents as a child forever? Or do you preside over your children forever? If all generations are connected, then how do they all live together? Are you eternally not allowed to be with your family if you leave the Church? Do your children never have a father or mother for eternity if one or both parents have left the Church? Or does that matter. Can they rejoin in the next life? So again, why is it important to stay on this covenant Path? How does the family of gay couples work? Because you have two dads or two mothers in mortality, will you never have parents in the next life? Are you just assigned random parents? Is that even meaningful to you? If by staying on that path, in this life, what advantages does that give you in the next life? Is climbing up the ladder just quicker because you are doing it here on earth? If you have eternity to work on this, does time and or speed really matter? This is just me typing out random problems with this so called Plan of Salvation/Plan of Happiness/Covenant Path teachings of the Church. I could go on for way more than this. But let's start with these problems. I know many of you are going to decide to speculate on what the answers to these questions are. Not really looking for your opinions, I only am interested answers that are official doctrine. Given that no one accepted the words of LeGrand Richards, statement by apostles/leaders can not counting as doctrine. Please only respond to any of these from what is official doctrine. Let's just see how good this plan actually holds up to very simple questions.

Wait. Are we now using Twitter, TikTok and Discord as a reliable source to get information to use as a weapon against a group of people? Have you read what Twitter, TikTok and Discord say about Mormons? Do you rely on those voices to form your opinions about Mormonism?

What if a member resigns his membership, is excommunicated, then transitions. Can he now be baptized and have his preferred gender on Church records? Or what if half of a gay couple transitioned, could he/she then have a civil marriage to his male partner? Would the Church recognize their marriage??

Is all I have ever said about my former ward is that only a handful ever talked to me again. I am just reporting what happened. I guess they felt like they were doing the right thing at that time. The Church was way more outwardly anti gay back then. I assume they thought they were doing what God wanted them to do. I know my family thought that as long as I was gay I shouldn’t be around the rest of the family. After 13 years of that they changed their minds. I am now invited to family events

Exactly. I am not really interested on picking sides. Both groups have reasons to be upset and the opportunity to dial back the attacks

I haven't watched a single tic toc message the bishop has posted because frankly I don't care. I only read his remarks that he directed to his ward members. I personally thought it reasonable to give his ward his reasons for resigning from being their bishop and leaving the Church. I think he owed them that explanation. I don't think you are getting the fact that I am not really all that motivated to vilify anyone in this situation. And like I said earlier, if ward members want to completely cut off friendship with the Bishop for what he has said, then they are certainly welcome to do so. You don't see me digging through social media trying to find some disparaging comment a ward member directed at the bishop do you?

I didn't condemn anyone in my ward by they way they treated me. I didn't post about some of the nasty rumors that floated around some members about me. Should I tell you about some of the crap they spread about me? I only reported what happened and pointed out that members don't need other reasons like finding something someone said as a reason to never talk to him again. Maybe the members of my ward did me a favor. I wouldn't want to feel like they were obligated to be my friend when they thought that being gay was a reason enough to not be friends with me any longer. I moved on and found new friends that didn't care whether I was gay or not. It seemed like those friendship were built on honesty. I would say the worse thing about trying to pretend to be straight for my ward is that I could never really trust their love or friendship. I always wondered if they knew that I was gay, would they still love me and want to be friends with the real me. I found out the answer to that question. If there was any condemnation in my mind, it was directed to the Church who told me that if I marry, I would no longer be gay. And a Church that pressured me to put up a false front in order to fit in. That is what I regret. I should have never pretended to be straight in order to stay a part of the Church.

I totally agree with everything you said. Anger and hurt rarely brings out the best in us on how we respond on both sides of this issue.