california boy

We have seen you taking shots at drag queens numerous times. It seems to be one of you go to arguments to gin up people against the LGBT community. I wondered what the comparison would be between drag queens and Mormon bishops convicted of child abuse. Even I was shocked by the results. This is what Chat GBT reported. Maybe you should reconsider your regular degrading and unfounded disparity of the horrible drag queens. I think I might just keep this research as a reminder every time you feel the need to attack this group.

Sorry. Double post

This is exactly why the vast majority of queer people leave the church. It is all cut and dried until the moment you find out your child is gay. Then everything becomes a bit murky. Do you lock them up in their room and never allow them to date? Do you forbid them from having a boyfriend if they are gay And if they don't do what you ask, how do you enforce your will upon them? Would you encourage them to not get married? Would you be supportive of their decisions?

This is the question I asked. Do you think most LDS parents tell their children that they don't care if they are straight, gay, lesbian, or bi as long as they don't have sexual relations until after they are married? Maybe I wasn't clear, the part I wanted you to tell me what you thought about that question is this part: Do you think most LDS parents tell their children that they don't care if they are straight, gay, lesbian, or bi I am acknowledging that observant members would expect no sex until after marriage. So you can skip that part of the question, but I would like a response to the part you didn't address. That wasn't really the question I asked. I accept that members want their children to only have sex after marriage. Why would members not approach the subject of whether their children would or should marry if their children are gay or lesbian. Do you think that not addressing marriage is a normal response from a believing member? How would you handle it? Even if they are minors? Just curious. A couple of other followup questions I am curious about. Do you think a gay or lesbian minor should tell their parents their orientation? Or pretend to be straight until they move out of the house? You mentioned to Nehor that you thought a drag queen reading a story in a library was highly sexual and children shouldn't be exposed to those kinds of sexual situations. What do you think is more sexual to straight children, a drag queen or a bunch of women/children at the beach in very revealing bikinis? Should children not be allowed to go to the beach?

Do you think most LDS parents tell their children that they don't care if they are straight, gay, lesbian, or bi as long as they don't have sexual relations until after they are married? Oh and if you are gay or lesbian, we just hope you. never marry? If you do that, then we are absolutely ok with your choices.

I hope the church still isn't pushing people into conversion therapy.

Unfortunately yes. Not formally like in the past, but it seems to still be a tactic that is sometimes is still relied upon. According to David Archuleta in his 2026 memoir Devout and related interviews, the late Mormon Apostle M. Russell Ballard advised David Archeletia he just needed to find a "good girl" to marry, implying it would help or "cure" his same-sex attraction. I have heard from others more recently that they are still getting that same counsel. Probably a lot of that has to do with bishop roulette. The good part is these days, a lot of members including queer people aren't automatically trusting what the church tells them to do anymore. That is so harmful and leads to marriages that almost always end in disaster. You aren't doing the spouse and the children of those marriages any favors either.

I am going to say this is all caps. CONVERSION THERAPY NEVER CONVERTS SOMEONE WHO IS GAY TO BE STRAIGHT. IT DOES HOWEVER CAUSE REAL HARMFUL BELIEFS THAT TAKE SOMETIMES YEARS TO OVERCOME. And the church is right in the middle of encouraging this false and harmful belief. Some are claiming that it is just talk and a teen can decide for themselves if what the therapist is telling them is true or not. But that is not how it works. You all know the lies church leaders told me to get me to marry a woman, telling me that being gay would just disappear. Does those that think being gay can be fixed like these church leaders think because of their position of authority? They are severely harming the lives of not only the queer person, they are also causing havoc in the life of the spouse that also trusts their claims. It causes harm to any children they may have. It causes harm to the larger family. There is a reason why conversion therapy was made illegal in the majority of states. Someone may have the constitutional right under free speech to say whatever they want to, but that doesn't mean that in doing so, they can cause horrific consequences. According to this ruling, a therapist has the constitutional right to counsel a patient to believe suicide is a viable solution to solving their problems. Free speech and all that. The destruction conversion therapy is so well known with countless lives both within and outside the church I don't need to repeat something that has been said so many other times. Challenge me on this and I will be glad to regurgitate countless stories of peoples lives that have been wrecked by going down this path, including my own life. I hate that there are still people defending and promoting this terrible harmful practice.

I have never heard of ancient Egyptians trading with South America. I asked Chatgbt. Here is the answer I got. Short answer: No—there’s no credible evidence that ancient Egyptians traded with South Americans. So where is this evidence that caused you to make this statement?

First I want to thank you SMAC, Ryan and Calm for responding to my post. I have read and thought about what has been posted on this subject and for me personally it seemed like very strained answers to some very simple scriptures that outline the monetary system of the Nephites. I guess you can figure out a rational for just about anything if you work at it hard enough. I realize your point of view is probably different than my conclusion. The AI response that Analytics posted seems much more logical and seems to fit what the verses were talking about to me. I admit that I am not vested in having to believe the BoM is true. It allows me a much more straight forward reading of what was said. That said, I appreciate that you all have found a way to resolve the issue for yourselves. And in the end, it is you all that are vested in the commitment to believe. It is not my 10% and countless hours being committed to the Church. So I guess the important thing to consider is as long as you are ok with the answers you have stated, isn't that all that matters.

I know the chapter headings are not canonized. But what those headings are is what those in charge of summerizing the BoM believe that is what the chapter is about. Are you saying that the chapter heading no longer says the chapter is about the monetary system of the Nephites? You are welcome to think that exact measures of precious metal lumps that have a fixed value that are not coins if you want was their currency. Yet nothing like that also has ever been found even though the BoM claims to be a civilization that existed for 1000 years.

Do you think the chapter heading is in error? How would you title that chapter?

Well I am asking what you believe, so thanks for your answer. I personally find that explanation as looking for an excuse rather than having any logic. I have reread that chapter 3 times and can't make it work the way you want it to. But let's go with your speculation. The one thing that would have to occur to give a specific name and value for a piece of metal would be consistent weight. So wouldn't this then become what Nephite currency looked like since it does state that it was used as payment of wages and goods? Has there ever been any discovery of a stash, or bag or deposit or anything of ingots that were a consistent weight like they have found for other great civilizations that existed for over 1000 years? It seems like if that type of currency was in use by a population the size that the BoM talks about, there is no evidence such a currency ever existed. So we are still back to square one.

Did you read the title summary heading written by the Church??????? I put the part in bold that you evidently missed. You are kinda making up the idea of this being only about weights and measurements aren't you. The verses talk about VALUE, not weights. As far as the throw everything at the wall to see if it sticks to prove there is evidence of the BoM civilization, I am not impressed. it doesn't take much for you to consider something to be a remnant of the BoM civilization. The author listed 60 items mentioned in the BoM and claimed to find 8 of the 60 items. But get this, these are the 8 items he names that are mentioned in the BoM to support his claim Wild beasts, stone monuments, large cities, fortifications, bow and arrows, east and west sea. Yet NONE of those items actually had any writings, drawings, Hebrew or anything that would actually tie them into a BoM civilization. Pretty low bar you got as proof of a Nephite/Lamonite civilization that lasted 1000 years. No one is saying that a civilization didn't existed during that time. I am saying nothing specifically points to that BoM civilization that existed for 1000 years. Rather than a ton of speculation, just one bit of concrete evidence would be of more worth that an entire page of speculation.

I guess that is how a believer figures out a way to make the BoM work for them which is always very interesting for me. Your example of Norsemen just weighing silver items is not the same as a coin. There are many cultures that use all kinds of different things as currency other than coins. There are some pretty strange ones out there including tea bricks, parmesan cheese, animal skins, cattle, shells even instant ramen. To me, they may qualify as currency, but not coins. One of the advantages of coins is the weight is known by the size and how precious the metal is.

Thank you for your response. Like I said, I am interested in how believing members work around some of the problematic issues with the BoM. I do have one followup question about the response above concerning lack of Nephite coins since Alma 11 specifically outlines Nephite coinage. If there weren't any coins used precolumbia, that seems problematic to what the BoM claims.. As far as your question, "What would a Nephite artifact look like?" According to the BoM their coins would be made out of gold or silver. And since every other coinage used by other civilizations had some kind of image, symbol and/or written copy relating to their culture in some way, I would expect coins that would have something like an image of a prominent ruler, prophet, Christ, Hebrew writing, Reformed Egyptian writing, or other symbols representing their faith or beliefs. Yet nothing like that has ever been uncovered. Also, if your defense of any stellas written in Reformed Egyptian is because that language was reserved only for the plates, then shouldn't there be writings in Hebrew? Can you explain how you think an entire great civilization that lasted for over 1000 years could leave absolutely nothing behind to indicate that it ever existed?

But the plates were not used as the source. But the story of the witnesses does have some problems. If the purpose was to actually show the artifact, why the quick now you see it, now you don't. More like how a magician shows something than a sincere evaluation of a claim. Artifacts of this kind of importance are carefully studied and examined. Of course the argument is that the story has to be taken by faith. So it still always leads back to faith. Faith that the witnesses actually saw something authentic. Faith that the BoM is based on a real civilization. Faith that prophets received revelation from God. So having the plates doesn't significantly sway a person's faith in the BoM. Not sure what you mean here. The tablets Moses had remained with the Israelites for many years. Noah's ark was something physical, not hidden. Or are you talking symbolism??? Then. couldn't the BoM been represented by anything God chose including just a rock? Not sure what you mean here either. Tied to real history??? What real history? That history recorded in the BoM is only found in what Joseph Smith wrote, not a real historical record. If it was, then were is the Reformed Egyptian stellas, where are the Nephite coins? Where is the DNA? Where is any physical evidence of this once great civilization that the book tells about? I can't think of a great civilization that had the kind of presence talked about in the BoM that lasted for 1000 years where there is no evidence they ever existed. Doesn't any historical context only rely on faith? Doesn't the entire story of the gold plates, angels and historical record rely entirely on faith? Having the prop doesn't really change any of that. Isn't the idea of the plates functioning as an anchor just speculation on your part? Are you saying that God was incapable of Joseph not reading the rock without the plates? I do want to be clear here. I appreciate your answers. I am asking these questions not to cast doubt on your faith. I am genuinely interested in how a believing member sorts out these discrepancies. So thanks for your response.

Perhaps one of the biggest reasoning that makes it easy to speculate the plates were just a prop is that Joseph himself treated the plates as just a prop. the plates sat in a box or hidden somewhere for virtually the whole time while Joseph looked at a rock in a hat to actually produce the BoM. Those that believe the story of angels and a book made out of pure gold containing the writings of ancient prophets whose even whereabouts of this civilization that left no trace of its reformed Egyptian and DNA behind only have theories and speculation of why the prop was even needed. It makes a good tale, but doesn't make any sense. Can anyone explain why the plates were needed for producing the BoM other than relying on pure speculation? If not, then aren't the plates just a prop used to convince others of some "special" source of this book that should be considered of divine origin? Probably a better sale than what actually happened. The book came from a common rock in a hat. The truth of how the BoM was actually produced is far more difficult to believe than the angels and gold plates. We are arguing over whether the prop is good enough or of divine origin while completely ignoring whether it was of any value.

I am just saying it is certainly in the realm of possibilities. Certainly if this is actually what happened, I doubt very much that Joseph would tell anyone he is going to NYC to pick up some tin plates and gold leafing to make a fake BoM, do you? And why is it different than shopping in NYC if it is something he felt like he needed to do to make his prop that he never really used to translate? Gold leafing would definitely look and feel like the plates were made of gold. In the end, I think people believe the most likely conclusion is the one they want to believe. It is not like it is an open and shut case. So everyone is forced to speculate on what they think really happened.

I have no idea. both are in the realm of possibility. And it is totally doable. Of course that doesn't necessarily rule out some divine explanation. It is all just guesswork and speculation.

We do know that he traveled from Palmyra to Pennsylvania, so I don't really think going to NYC would have been all that hard for him to do. I don't really know about the bronzing or how well painting could be done. I am not really familiar with that. But gold leafing would be difficult to determine especially for the untrained eyes. They use gold leafing on picture frames all the time and have been for centuries. It totally has the appearance that it is pure gold.

Interesting points. I am not quite convinced how likely they would be as the main reason for the amount of physical and economical cost it would take to create all those gold plates. Seems like once you see God and Jesus Christ, you don't really need any more authority than that. And maybe a little Moroni time would have been good enough for Joseph to actually believe in a Nephite nation. But I do appreciate you thoughts. This whole thread is pretty much just guesswork including all of my posts.

Maybe not as easy as Amazon, but tin roofing plates were readily available in New York in 1830. According to AI: Doesn't seem that difficult to me. Did he change the plates to look more like gold? I certainly would have. Looks like bronze powers could pass probably as close of inspection Joseph Smith gave anyone. But gold leafing would definitely fool a lot of untrained people even today. It is a pretty easy process. As I mentioned earlier, I have done it a couple of times. Yes—gold-colored paint was definitely available in 1830, though, as with “tin roofing,” the details matter.

He did have 4 years to gather tin plates before he needed to show anyone anything. It certainly can't be dismissed as being undoable, just difficult.

I do agree that it is possible Joseph Smith or someone else could have made something out of metal because other people at the time also made metal plates. And in all likelihood he showed something to the witnesses. But that story really does not prove much concerning the authenticity of the Book of Mormon because it is entirely within the realm of possibility that the plates could have been created by someone at the time and not delivered by an angel. It is really very very difficult for the vast majority of people to believe the whole story of how the BoM came to be. Way too many flaws in the story in general that can lead to a different conclusion even by honest men seeking answers. If it is true, God made it pretty hard to determine its authenticity other then having just warm feelings about it. This plan, just by the very nature of how it is set up means that God really had little intention of a large number of people embracing his gospel in mortality. So I guess the plan all along was to do all that work, not here on earth, but after everyone dies??? It seems of little importance to God for people to find the gospel while mortal. So maybe all of this plan is working how it is supposed to work and the church will always be this small sect working hard for a few people to believe in. A more substantial investigation by more credible people who could actually subject the plates to a more scientific examination may have given way more people interest in finding out its truths. I think for most people it is a story easily dismissed.