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california boy

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Everything posted by california boy

  1. Well then why did SMAC throw in countless unrelated talks rather than just answer the question that you so simply answer. Your link also didn't provide any doctrinal direction on how a gay person is suppose to see how they could possibly fit into Church doctrine, but at least you answered the question simply and honestly instead of pretending there was an answer to that question. It all boils down to this. The Church has a red line in the sand against gay marriage, has no answers on how an LGBT person fits into the Mormon version of what they think is God's plan, but we can still love them. Do you think that is a fair assessment? The big reason for bringing all of this up is because there seems to be a culture within the Church among a lot of leaders and members that if we just throw enough scriptures and talks, even if they don't answer actual questions, maybe those asking sincere questions will just give up and no longer seek answers. Most of the time they are right. People that have questions, no matter what the issue is do just fade away. The throw in the kitchen sink approach is actually more frustrating than helpful. People figure that out eventually.
  2. This is exactly the issue. Thank you Tacenda for that quote. Your response to Pogi's post also nailed the problem. There are many in the Church who feel like they don't fit the very narrow mold the Church gives members to follow. If you don't fit that mold, then just sit in the corner and keep your mouth shut. Leaving the Church offers hope that there is a family of people out there who will actually love you for who you are and not the facade that is required to be in the Church. I know this is true. I have lived that life and found that hope can be fulfilled. The lifting of those dark clouds that smothered me so much for years in trying to pretend to be something I was not or even able to do was the single best pivot I have ever made in my life. This is the message that countless people who have left the Church have told me. "Where will you go?" The answer to that question is simple. Find a community that cares about you for who you are and thrive. You will find that path back to God is one that actually leads to a relationship with God where you are a participant, and not a bystander wishing you could participate.
  3. I think you have been very well trained on how to not answer real questions that people have about Church doctrine. Just throw in a ton of talks that don't really provide any answers to the real question people have. We see this approach on this board a lot when people don't want to actually answer a CFR. People linking to some 2 hour video with no real answer to questions. Or your favorite approach to just throw in the kitchen sink of any talk that might possibly have anything related to LGBT issues and tell the person that is suppose to be some kind of answer to their question. It is not. There is no answer because, while the Church seems to have a red line in the sand on not allowing gay marriage, what it doesn't have an answer to is what happens to someone who is gay when they die. Literally, what is their role in the Plan of Salvation. You wonder why people don't feel like they can ask real questions that they need real answers to? Look no further than your own answers. A Google search on talks by Church leaders on any LGBT topic is not an answer to their question. Eventually people realize that unless you are straight and want a family, you aren't going to get any answers to this question that YOU brought up and claimed that the Church was now finally giving some direction to. It is clear that not much has changed. The Church is doing what it has always done, repackage the same non answers in some new shiny package. Now the Plan of Salvation will be called the Covenanted Path. Repackaging doesn't give any answers, it just distracts SOME people who don't need real answers to their questions to believe that the Church is now being more open and understanding in their answers. Not impressed. Unless you can actually answer the question that you stated the Church is now addressing, then don't bother to give me an index of talks that are unrelated to the question. Save your response for someone who is not actually looking for a real answer. And just so you don't feign ignorance and don't know what the actual question is, I will once again state the question you said the Church is now providing an answer to. How do gay siblings fit into the Plan of Salvation? A quote from any talk or any other authoritative statement you want to use is the only response I am looking for. More kitchen sink talks that don't answer that question is not an answer.
  4. So. nothing specifically that answers the question you linked to that ended up being a link to the SL Tribune in a totally. unrelated subject. I thought this was an article about new openness and answers to questions people have. Throwing the kitchen sink to unrelated articles is not really answering the question that you said the Church is now answering. "gay siblings fits into the plan of salvation". Not sure now why you posted the article. Doesn't really look like the Church is actually answering the questions you indicated they were answering.
  5. Fair enough. Thoughts? Thanks, -Smac I am not seeing any real answers to the questions you quoted. I clicked on the link "gay siblings fits into the plan of salvation". There was no answer to that question, just a SL Trib article about the compromise the Church made to get the religious protections it was seeking. I also read the link on polygamy. It too was a SL Trib article. Neither one of these provided any kind of answer, nor were they authoritive statements by the Church. Can you maybe point to an actual answer from the Church to those questions? Is this how most of the questions are dodged with no real answer to the questions?
  6. Maybe it is an effort on someone's part to get the Church to be more transparent on its finances. I am guessing these law suites will require some kind of financial documentation in order to defend themselves????
  7. The Oath took in $115,000 from 640 cinemas across the country durning it's first week. That works out to about $180 per theater for the week. That is less than $25 per screening. I still think it won't be around for more than a couple of weeks. Hope Darin Scott didn't borrow too much to get this thing made. Making films is a huge financial gamble, even for the big studios who have been doing this for over a century.
  8. I wish I could give you some reason to hope that fear might not be true. I felt the same when I struggled with being honest about my orientation with those that I loved. I too kept emotional distance from everyone who said that they loved me. In my mind, I always asked myself the same question. Would they still love me if they knew I was gay? My fear of being rejected was exactly what happened. Of all the people I knew well in my ward and stake, only a handful ever contacted me again. My father and siblings had noting to do with me for 13 years. (My mother had already passed.) And while my family now includes my partner and me in family activities, those scars remain deep. I honestly can not really trust their love. So I too still keep an emotional distant from them and feel more tolerated by them than loved. But I will say this. I never regretted for a moment finally being honest in my life and quit pretending for fear of rejection the lie I told every day as people assumed I was straight. That constant lying and false facade took a much bigger toll on me than the rejection of so many people who I thought cared about me. And I now know who in my life actually loves who I am and not who I was pretending to be. It does get better. I am no longer ashamed that I am gay. That burden has been lifted. I remember that first Thanksgiving after I came out, feeling so lonely and unwanted when some gay friends who I had only recently gotten to know, invited me to share their Thanksgiving dinner with me. I will never forget that act of kindness that meant so much to me. For the first time in my life, I thought that I could be loved for who I really was. I doubt they ever really knew what a difference that made to me. I was not alone. Someone did care about me. And I found a new family and community that could love the real me. Nehor, I hope you find peace and joy in your life and find people who can actually love you and not the pretend you. We only have one life. There is no dress rehearsal. You are welcome in my heart and home anytime. Maybe that is why this very small gesture by the Catholic Church feels so important to me. I know that little gesture may very well help LGBT Catholics cling to their faith and feel like they are invited into the tent. I know it is just a blessing. But it was also just a Thanksgiving dinner for me.
  9. I agree with you, and want to thank you for digging deeper to try and understand how someone who is LGBT may have a place with God and still find love while on this earth. I think the talk was very thought provoking and an effort to understand how they too might fit into the plan of salvation and participate in the Atonement. For so long, I felt like it didn't matter what I did, I was surely going to the darkest place God to send me. I no longer believe that. I think God will be much more understanding and maybe even rejoicing that I found someone to share this life with and have the opportunity to feel what that kind of love can be like. I don't feel at all like the Church wants to welcome my partner and me into its fold. But maybe that has been the best for my own spiritual growth as I have come to feel the love of God outside the dogma of Mormonism. It feels more authentic and the feelings of the Spirit reinforce that for me, I am just where God wants me to be.
  10. If you think I was giving a pass to the Catholic Church, you are wrong. What I was saying is that the Catholic Church has given a signal for those gay couples that they too are included as part of the church and can be blessed for being a part of that. Perhaps it will allow some to feel like they can join in with the congregation and the Catholic Church recognizes that gay couples have a place in that congregation. While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has given up on its crusade to prevent gay couples not in their church to be married as is their civil right under the Constitution, there is no way a gay couple is being blessed or an effort to include those couples into their congregation. Do you get it now???
  11. Well I am not going to argue with you about this. I have acknowledged that the policy of calling gay couples apostates has changed. You pointed to the handbook that while excommunication is still possible for gay couples it is not mandatory like it once one. I pointed out that there has been no broad announcement of that change and how are gay couples suppose to know about such a change if the are interested in participating as couple in the Church. While you did post links to no longer being called apostates, you never explained how a gay couple would know about the handbook change. Not to worry. I don't think either one of us thinks that the Church is actually encouraging gay couples to participate in the Church. That was actually the point of my first post in the thread. While the Catholic Church has made a small gesture to include gay couples into their congregations, and has never excommunicated them for being in a committed relationship, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has not made that kind of gesture.
  12. I guess you really are not interested in addressing what I have stated. You ignore it and go somewhere other than what I have stated in my post. If you are interested, here it is again. Moving away from prohibiting of underaged children from being baptized? Yeah No longer calling gay couples apostates? Yeah Making a gesture to gay couples being welcomed back into the Church? Well I guess the Church no longer automatically excommunicates any gay couple, but rather makes a few exceptions? Yeah. But that is not really well known except to those that read the Church handbook or have heard about it. Since you haven't provided any link that addresses this, I am guessing that the Church has never publicly said the policy has been somewhat modified. Keeping it not well known I don't think helps gay couples feel like they are welcomed or even acknowledged.
  13. That is a beautiful talk. It would certainly move the Church in a much better direction towards the LGBT community. Unfortunately I have no hope in the near future of hearing of such a talk given by the leaders of the Church. My statement about Charlie Bird was not a question about what he thinks of the Church. My statement was about how Elder Holland in a public meeting personally attached Charlie Bird for relating his experience of being gay at BYU during his graduation speach
  14. Maybe I am missing something? I read your links. I did not find a single word in those articles that said the Church in some instances are not excommunicating gay partners any longer. I see no announcement that gay couples should now find a Church handbook to see if they will get excommunicated.
  15. Not willing to answer the question I asked of you? Or is this more a technically they are welcome, but we really don't want them to be a part of the Church kind of thing.
  16. Oh the same Charlie Bird (former Cosmo Cougar mascot) that got publicly attacked by Elder Holland for daring to relate his personal experience of being gay at BYU?
  17. Oh was there some big announcement about this that I missed? Or are gay couples suppose to get hold of a handbook and go through it page by page to find out they now may or may not be excommunicated depending on how the local leadership roulette works in their areaa. I got excommunicated because I was not willing to be celibate my whole life. So hardly can call that as a false claim. It was not all that long ago that I was labeled an apostate for being with my partner. Do you honestly think that the Church has made a big effort to let gay couples know they are now welcomed into the Church? If you do feel like the Church is making an effort to welcome in gay couples, can you point to me where that effort is? Like did they make some kind of statement at say, General Conference that say gay couples are. now welcomed to participate in the Church? And what exactly that participation is?? Tell me why my partner and I would feel welcomed back into the Church.
  18. Despite your attempt to just make up doctrine, you still missed the entire point of my post. Maybe you could direct your comment to exactly what my post was about. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does nothing to help bring committed gay couples to Christ. Instead, the Church has taken over God's role of judging their relationship, excommunicates them and doesn't allow their membership or participation when there has been absolutely no revelation from God to do so. Rather than let God sort things out in the next life, the effort the Church makes is to do all it can to push them away from joining in coming to Christ. Does that sound like the template Christ gave when he established his Church??? I would like a real answer to that question.
  19. I have had numerous conversations with gay men over the years who once were Catholic and feel like their church would have nothing to do with them. Like a big door was shut, locked and sealed if they found someone they loved to share their life with. While in no way is the Catholic Church recognizing their marital commitment to each other, they are at least acknowledging that they exist. For some, it may help them hold onto their faith. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints still has the door shut, locked and sealed to gay married couples. There is no way for similar Mormon couples to hold onto their faith. They are automatically excommunicated. Some struggle with that. Others just walk away, never to return. There are other religions that are willing to bring them right into the Church, allow them to marry and work to bring them to Christ. Let God sort out what is sin and how it should be judged. Being LGBT does not mean the Church can not help them make stronger bonds with Christ in this life.
  20. Neither am I going to defend what Delhin is doing. And I understand why you feel that way. Because you and others that have commented support what the Church is doing and feel like it adds value in your lives. People who donate to Delhin obviously believe his podcast is of value to them, which is why they donate as well. Many of them are grateful for the information he has provided to them exposing information that in some cases the Church actively hid from them. They feel betrayed by what the Church did. It is that feeling of betrayal that has led them to be vulnerable. The Church is not an innocent bystander. You belong to an institution that a lot of people in this world would make the same accusations of preying on the vulnerable by pressuring them to give 10% of their income to an institution that has literally over 100 billion dollars sitting in a stock portfolio. An institution that tells them to pay the church first, even before buying food for their families. Growing up, the Church preached to its members that the Church that they had donated so much too was the last resource they should call upon if they needed help. Dismissing those sacrifices they have made by stating that some have received help from the Church as not playing a part in making them vulnerable is dismissing the things that put them in that position. Being vulnerable does not just come from a lack of financial resources. I personally was extremely vulnerable while growing up with men like Spencer W. Kimball telling me I was an abomination simply because I was gay. How do you think that made me feel when despite false promised by Church leaders that if I only got married I would no longer be gay? You can't even imagine the impact and feeling of betrayal that has caused me in my own personal life. If there was someone throwing out a lifeline, telling me it was ok to be gay. That I was not an abomination. That I could have a happy and healthy life, I would have happily donated to their cause. You and others that have commented seem to have NO problem with anything the Church has done to create that vulnerability that doesn't go away with a box of food. Those donating to Delhin feel like your Church played a direct part in their loss of faith. Many former members of the Church. have huge problems with what the Church has done and the role it played in causing them to loose their faith. So don't play the innocent, we didn't do anything to cause those people to loose their faith. I am just saying your statement Is a big BEAM in your eye while judging someone else's spec. One you find despicable, the other you find praiseworthy. NOT everyone sees things the same as you. As you judge so harshly what Delins is doing, you might want to take a step back and consider those donating to Delhin have a very different view on who is exploiting the vulnerable.
  21. I don't really get involved in these arguments about who is making more money. People have free will to donate to what organizations they want to and which ones they choose to join. It is really none of my concern. But this statement really got to me. You think Dehlin is exploiting vulnerable people? Seriously? While the Church has no problem requiring 10% of the income to stay worthy of membership into their church from every member, including the very very poor using threats of their own personal salvation if they don't obey what they are selling as a direct commandment from God???? Please. That was a very poor point of criticism. If you find Dehlins totally voluntary contributions with no threats of personal salvation as being despicable, what do you call the explotation of vulnerable church members by your Church? Love to hear how you defend that.
  22. This is just further proof that the guy has no idea how the movie industry works. He seems have the naive idea that the hardest part about the motion picture industry is to get a film made. That is perhaps the easiest part of the whole process. A movie has to start with a good script. Part of my job when I worked for the motion picture company was to read scripts and let them know if I found a good one. I read literally hundreds of scripts. Never found one that I thought should be turned into a movie. Sounds like he started off with a script that would probably been tossed in the garbage bin by most motion picture companies.
  23. Having worked for an independent motion picture company for a few years doing their national marketing, I can tell you that without a major studio supporting the film, it is going to be a major uphill battle to make this film profitable. It is why many films go straight to streaming. I predict this film will only be in the theaters about 2 weeks. Then he better hope he can sell it to streaming. He would have done better doing a regional release in the Mormon corridor. If it did well there, perhaps he could expand to other markets. 650 screens nation wide is really a bad idea. You can't effectively market a film without a huge advertising budget. I think he might be realizing this now and without the Church stepping in to support his project he probably realizes the financial disaster he is headed for. The movie industry is so rigged against independent movie companies having any success at the box office and is extremely risky financially. I hope he didn't put up his house for collateral All of this is true even if the film is an amazing film.
  24. I have been following your posts for a while now. I know you are struggling to figure out how to navigate your lost of trust in Church leaders. I totally get that. Loss of trust in Church leaders was one of the most difficult things for me to navigate. Maybe things were easier for me when I was excommunicated. It made being a part of the Church not possible. Of course they offered a path back, but, where that path lead really wasn't an option for me. I firmly believed that I could be loved and that God wanted me to find someone that could love me. You aren't facing that finality, so for you, you are trying to find a way to navigate a way that will work for you. Being cut off from the Church that I had my whole life was scary. On top of that, I knew that almost all of my friends and even my family would distance themselves from me. Only 3 people from my ward and stake ever talked to me again. It took 13 years before my family decided that I could be included as part of the family again. Yeah those scars are pretty deep. But in a way, it was a blessing. I was forced to evaluate on a very basic level my relationship with God. I was starting from scratch and had to build block by block may relationship with God. That part was way easier than I thought. All the sudden, my relationship was not based on any dogma. It had to be built entirely on how I felt in a very spiritual way and what was right for me. I realized I didn't have to give up my relationship with God or the Spirit. That unfiltered connection seemed stronger than trying to fit that personal connection with God into an institution that I no long trusted. I guess what I am saying that pulling away from the Church does not mean pulling away from God. You might just find that it can actually pull you closer to God. It forces you to trust your relationship with God rather than men who think only they know the correct answers for your relationship with God and have to be a filter for doctrine. You will have to figure out how to do that for yourself rather than being told. It might mean taking a break from the Church, which can be scary for all the reasons it was scary for me. Just offering a different perspective. Hope it is a little helpful. I wish you only the best on your journey.
  25. Thanks for the info. I still don't think people are opposing the building of the temple because it is Mormon. I think it is probably more nimby kinda thing.
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