california boy

Thank you. That was very helpful.

Hope I am not annoying you, but your thinking on this issue interests me. Do you think cutting off the sleeves of an existing pair of garments to look like the new ones is to accommodate different styles of clothing. If so, do you think the new design was decided upon to accommodate different styles of clothing? I would think cutting right before the sleeve would not require any sewing skills. But maybe what I am thinking about is not how they are currently made.

Not even to make modifications that the church has made?

Instead of standing in line for hours, would it be appropriate to just cut the sleeves off the ones you already have?

No. what I find amusing is thinking whatever Moroni was wearing should be what temple garments should look like. If that is the case then why wear temple garments underneath clothing. They should be worn like Moroni did, on the outside for everyone to see, not as underwear

I started to put my name in, but as soon as I sealed the envelope it burst into flames.

Thank you for taking the time to write your response. I do now understand why you were posting what you did. Yes, the Church was not the only one pushing for the passage of Prop 8, but it was the face of that proposition. I grew up in the Bay Area and I too remember a general like and acceptance of the Church. That acceptance seems to have deteriorated quite a bit. I am sure there are a number of factors that have contributed to that deterioration. This is just one of many. Perhaps the biggest influence have come from so many people leaving the church in this area. Every stake I have lived in has had a decrease in the number of wards, a sharp contrast from exceptional growth in my youth. Unlike when I was growing up when people became inactive and just faded away, many who have left the Church have not been silent about why they left. There is a lot of anger and resentment against the Church now that didn't exist nearly so much as in the past. AI lists the three biggest social reasons why people. have left the Church

So an opinion to show disrespect to a community based on outliners that say stuff to grab attention. Well I hope you never have a problem with people basing the opinion of the Church by what they see on Tic Toc or wherever they broadcast this stuff. I personally think that is very unfair of people to judge any organization based on what some random person says on the internet. If you really want to have a more honest and educational understanding of the LGBT community I might suggest you actually talk to someone who is LGBT. You might be surprised that we aren't really the freaks you seem to think we are. While the LGBT community is not a monolith, Glaad is probably the best source to find the right term for that community. They and I and most everyone in the LGBT community will tell you LGBT, LGBTQ, and LGBTQ+ are all acceptable terms,. When you use the term LGTBQYXUVICYCU+ you are just being an _hole and insulting. But then I think that was your intent. I will try not to judge all members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by you.

LGTBQYXUVICYCU+ tells me everything I need to know about your respect for those in the LGBT community. You are asking people to show more respect for BYU but you show no respect for them.

I think this tread is becoming a little too personal for me. Evidently I seem to be the only one on this thread that believes discrimination against LGBT students is of any importance at any university in this country. Good to know that no one seems to think this is even a possibility. Probably the same thinking that discrimination against Blacks was not important in the 1970's and pushing back against discrimination is not really a thing at universities. Do I know how much of this is about treatment of LGBT students at BYU? No I do not. But I do know how much animosity there is against the Church within the LGBT community. Let me just say, the Church not liked and people have pretty strong feelings against Mormons because of the policies against the LGBT community. Remember the firestorm when the Church decided to not allow baptisms if one of the parents was gay and gay couples were called apostates? You still don't think that people care? Ok, carry on. That is all I have to say about this.

Tell me, what is my monetary value of my principles?

So your position is that LGBT students don't know LGBT history? My experience is very different than that.

We have had this discussion so many times on this board. If you still want to believe that the Church was not the principle force behind Prop 8 by a wide margin, then I guess I am not going to change your mind at this point. I will give this summation from AI

Is that unusual in college football stadiums?

Really Calm? You know the numbers and how much each group contributed. Mormons over $20 million Catholics $3 million. During the campaign for California's Proposition 8 in 2008, an estimated 80% to 90% of the volunteers for early door-to-door canvassing were members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS), also known as the Mormon Church . While this is a very high percentage, it doesn't represent the 40% of overall manpower for the entire campaign. Thanks for your answer. I don't know the answer to your question. I do know that there are people who refused to go to BYU because of the way they treat LGBT students. Remember the very public events that happened when students thought that the honor code rules were changed?

I think they were making both a political statement because there are definitely political reasons involved, and they are young and dumb. Like I said in the previous post, I would not be surprised if a LGBT group started the chant for those reasons and the rest of the students joined in because it is more a football chant that is becoming more common

Perhaps you are right. I don't really know. But I do think that those that are LGBT are probably aware of how BYU treats LGBT students. Is all it takes is bringing up the issue at other LGBT events. The LGBT community is pretty sensitive about discrimination and for good reason given their history. I would not be surprised if that group started the chant for those reasons and the rest of the students joined in because it is more a football chant that is becoming more common???

Not sure what your last sentence is addressing. Could you clarify?

It was F the Mormons F BYU. Who sponsors BYU? Can I ask why you don't think a big part of this is not social issues related to LGBT? Do you think most students don't care about discrimination against LGBT students? Do you think LGBT students at other universities don't care about LGBT students at BYU?

Someone should probably point out that perhaps it might not be against a religion but against how that religion and a university treats LGBT students. I would say that *BYU is pretty clear about distain for BYU. It is not hard to like someone who is a member of the Church and still be very upset about a university sponsored by a religion and its discrimination policies. None of those chants were directed at an individual. I would like to ask you this question that I asked in my post. If you were a LGBT student at one of those schools that the administration power bordered a deal to get that BYU broadcasting money without significantly considering the social issues, just how would you push back? Not surprising the coach blames it on the alcohol. It's an easy scape goat. Would you expect him to come out and say it is about how BYU treats LGBT issues? Plenty of prejudice against the Catholic church as well, but Notre Dame isn't getting these kinds of chants. Perhaps it is because their policies towards LGBT students are light years away from BYU's. I am not saying that alcohol might be a part of it, but I don't think it is really what is fueling the dislike for the Church or BYU. There is alcohol served at just about every football game throughout the country. People in other leagues are not chanting these kinds of chants. There is definitely something more going on. Maybe a part of me is remembering the pushback BYU was getting in the 70's over the black issue when I was attending BYU. It wasn't alcohol then either.

One thing that doesn't make sense to me about this narrative that it is all caused by a failed relationship with a former Mormon girlfriend 10 years ago. If he was still single and frustrated with his relationship with women, then maybe. But it is 10 years later, he did find someone to love and marry and has a child. Looks to me like he moved on. I think more digging needs to be done.

It is not alcohol that is causing these chants. The students don't have to be drunk to voice their distain for BYU. And it is quite possible that trying to punish those who feel like they are using their free speech rights to object to something they very strongly believe in might very well blow this up to an even bigger issue. In the end, it might be BYU that gets kicked out of the Pac 12. Unless someone sees a different conclusion. Love to hear what others think would happen with stronger force being exerted.

I read the article you linked. I think it outlined pretty clearly the arguments and reasons why some of the schools didn't think that BYU was not a good fit. But I think the article totally glosses over the significant difference between BYU and Norte Dame. Let's take a closer look. BIG difference here. Prop 8 was not supported by the Catholic church in any way compared to the escalation and overwhelming financial and manpower support that the Church did. It is often referred to as the "Mormon Proposition" for a reason. Sometimes I think church members like to think of Prop 8 as water under the bridge. Maybe it is water under the bridge for members, but I can tell you there are a LOT of people who will never forget the Mormon Churches crusade against their civil rights. Let's pretend that it is water under the bridge (more a hope than a reality). So how does Catholic Notre Dame treat its students on campus compared to the Mormon institution? Don't forget we are comparing university with university. The article compares both schools and concludes that it is just plain discrimination. But was it asking the right questions? Does BYU allow its LGBT students to date? Nope. Notre Dame, yes Does BYU allow its LGBT students to kiss someone they love? Nope. Notre Dame, yes Does BYU allow its LGBT students to organize LGBT clubs? Nope. Notre Dame, yes Does BYU allow its LGBT students to celebrate Pride? Nope. Notre Dame, yes Does BYU expel its LGBT students if a student is caught doing any of these activities? Nope. Notre Dame, no. Does BYU require any student that sees any violation of any of these policies to be reported and if not reported, could jeopardize their own enrollment? Yes. Notre Dame no. In fact Notre Dame has specific policies against any harassment of its LGBT students. Does BYU require clergy to verify if the student is attending church and not dating, kissing, holding hands? Yes. Nortre Dame, no As has been pointed out, BYU's attitudes towards the LGBT community was probably the biggest sticking point when considering its inclusion to the pack 10. Those that decided to let them in were swayed by the very large Mormon fan base across the country, and. couldn't resist the broadcasting dollars waved in their face. Students really don't care about those dollars. But no one asked them did they. So just how do those students push back against what they feel goes directly against their principles? I think we know the answer to that question, they chant *BYU *Mormons. The fines aren't going to make one bit of difference. I am sure the schools just do a financial cost vs profit analysis. How much does that broadcasting money coming in from the Mormon audience compared to the fines. They can all afford a couple of $50,000 fines each season. If you were a LGBT student at one of those schools that the administration power brokered a deal to get that BYU broadcasting money without significantly considering the social justice issues, just how would you push back? Seriously, I would like an answer to that question. Here is an overview of Notre Dame's policies towards LGBT students. It might not be perfect, but, light years away from BYU's repressive policies. This is what equality for LGBT students looks like.

When it was first announced that BYU was going to be a part of the Big 12, I thought it was inevitable that students from other schools were going to have a problem with a Mormon school and all it represents play against them. Did anyone else really not see the problems this was going to cause given the way BYU treats their LGBT students??? Not even allowing them to hold hands, date, kiss etc. etc. etc. How do you think you would feel if you were sitting on a stadium playing BYU and being LGBT? Don’t you think you would want to yell out * BYU. * the Mormons? Especially if you knew someone who was struggling with LGBT issues who was Mormon and maybe their family no longer has anything to do with them? You might not like it. And it might not be good sportsmanship, but would that really matter to you if you knew someone or were struggling with this issue? This fine is not going to stop this behavior. People hurt too much to not lash out. Especially college age kids.

I agree. I was hoping I made it clear I didn’t want to derail this thread. But I did want to make the point that and hopefully people will actually think about what they find unChrist like in others may be something they should consider in their own beliefs. Carry on