Nephi'S Torah Rescue Tale

[USU78]

I learned recently from a good friend, an observant Jew, son of the local Temple President in New York State, who converted as a teen, did a mission in South America, and has raised his children (a very Tevyaesque 4 daughters) LDS and remains active LDS, about a phenomenon in Jewish history and folklore that bears on Book of Mormon study in my view.

He asked me one day if the Brass Plates were the Torah. I was a bit surprised that he wasn't sure, but I reminded him of what he already knew: the Torah (the 5 books of Moses in our Old Testament) was part of the material contained in the Brass Plates kept by Laban, along with some of the Prophets and other Writings contained in the modern Tanakh (our Old Testament). When I asked him why he asked, he related a series of "Torah Rescue" and "Hidden/Recovered" Torah stories, a lot coming out of Poland and vicinity during and after WWII. The typical story has an heroic Jew hiding up a valuable Torah scroll to keep it from desecration, or recovering the Torah from some bad hat who was keeping it from the Righteous. A recent story out of Poland is typical of this kind of tale: http://bieganski-the-blog.blogspot.com/2012/02/heroic-rabbi-beaten-imprisoned-in.html

Nephi and his brothers' adventure getting the Brass Plates, including the Torah inscribed therein, fit right into this cultural, folkloric, and literary tradition: The heroic Son of Israel is tasked with recovering the valuable Torah (valuable not only for the medium it is recorded on, but especially for what it contains -- the means of continuing as a people) from a mustache-twirling bad guy . . . they face danger, intrigue and despair, and through divine intervention and no small amount of derring-do, they rescue the Torah, thus saving the people.

I've not seen this aspect of the Nephi/Laban adventure treated as fitting into this genre. Anybody know anybody who's written on the subject?

[mfbukowski]

Wow. That smarts!

But a great concept about the BOM!

Edited March 4, 2013 by mfbukowski

[USU78]

Wow. That smarts!

But a great concept about the BOM!

Isn't it odd that stuff is there in plain sight for us to trip over, yet we step over it for a lifetime . . . until somebody else notices it. "Of course!" we holler, then claim we knew it all along, because it fits so well and is so obvious.

[nealr]

I learned recently from a good friend, an observant Jew, son of the local Temple President in New York State, who converted as a teen, did a mission in South America, and has raised his children (a very Tevyaesque 4 daughters) LDS and remains active LDS, about a phenomenon in Jewish history and folklore that bears on Book of Mormon study in my view.

He asked me one day if the Brass Plates were the Torah. I was a bit surprised that he wasn't sure, but I reminded him of what he already knew: the Torah (the 5 books of Moses in our Old Testament) was part of the material contained in the Brass Plates kept by Laban, along with some of the Prophets and other Writings contained in the modern Tanakh (our Old Testament). When I asked him why he asked, he related a series of "Torah Rescue" and "Hidden/Recovered" Torah stories, a lot coming out of Poland and vicinity during and after WWII. The typical story has an heroic Jew hiding up a valuable Torah scroll to keep it from desecration, or recovering the Torah from some bad hat who was keeping it from the Righteous. A recent story out of Poland is typical of this kind of tale: http://bieganski-the...risoned-in.html

Nephi and his brothers' adventure getting the Brass Plates, including the Torah inscribed therein, fit right into this cultural, folkloric, and literary tradition: The heroic Son of Israel is tasked with recovering the valuable Torah (valuable not only for the medium it is recorded on, but especially for what it contains -- the means of continuing as a people) from a mustache-twirling bad guy . . . they face danger, intrigue and despair, and through divine intervention and no small amount of derring-do, they rescue the Torah, thus saving the people.

I've not seen this aspect of the Nephi/Laban adventure treated as fitting into this genre. Anybody know anybody who's written on the subject?

Hmmm...this is a very interesting idea. Do we have any idea how far back these sorts of narratives go? Do they date back the pre-exilic Israel? That might be something worth trying to research.

[mfbukowski]

Hmmm...this is a very interesting idea. Do we have any idea how far back these sorts of narratives go? Do they date back the pre-exilic Israel? That might be something worth trying to research.

They came from somewhere- perhaps there is a "common ancestor"

Ezekial 37

¹⁶ Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:

¹⁷ And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

The parallel is not exact, but the idea of recovered scripture is what is common between the two

Edited March 4, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Rivers]

Can't it be argued that the existence of the Torah in the brass plates is anachronistic? I have heard it said that the five Books of Moses were written post exile period.

[USU78]

They came from somewhere- perhaps there is a "common ancestor"

Ezekial 37

The parallel is not exact, but the idea of recovered scripture is what is common between the two

There is, moreover, this:

2 Chr 34:14 And when they brought out the money that was brought into the house of the Lord, Hilkiah the priest found a book of the law of the Lord given by Moses.

15 And Hilkiah answered and said to Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the Lord. And Hilkiah delivered the book to Shaphan.

16 And Shaphan carried the book to the king, and brought the king word back again, saying, All that was committed to thy servants, they do it.

17 And they have gathered together the money that was found in the house of the Lord, and have delivered it into the hand of the overseers, and to the hand of the workmen.

18 Then Shaphan the scribe told the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath given me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king.

19 And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the law, that he rent his clothes.

20 And the king commanded Hilkiah, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Abdon the son of Micah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asaiah a servant of the king’s, saying,

21 Go, inquire of the Lord for me, and for them that are left in Israel and in Judah, concerning the words of the book that is found: for great is the wrath of the Lord that is poured out upon us, because our fathers have not kept the word of the Lord, to do after all that is written in this book.

22 And Hilkiah, and they that the king had appointed, went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvath, the son of Hasrah, keeper of the wardrobe; (now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the college and they spake to her to that effect.

The recovered, lost Scroll of the Law (presumably Deuteronomy) is probably the granddaddy of them all.

[USU78]

Can't it be argued that the existence of the Torah in the brass plates is anachronistic? I have heard it said that the five Books of Moses were written post exile period.

A tale for another day, or at least another thread, if you please.

We now have found 2 examples of biblical references to lost books recovered [although many argue that Ezekiel was referring to something other than an Etz around which a Torah scroll is wound].

[volgadon]

I learned recently from a good friend, an observant Jew, son of the local Temple President in New York State, who converted as a teen, did a mission in South America, and has raised his children (a very Tevyaesque 4 daughters) LDS and remains active LDS, about a phenomenon in Jewish history and folklore that bears on Book of Mormon study in my view.

He asked me one day if the Brass Plates were the Torah. I was a bit surprised that he wasn't sure, but I reminded him of what he already knew: the Torah (the 5 books of Moses in our Old Testament) was part of the material contained in the Brass Plates kept by Laban, along with some of the Prophets and other Writings contained in the modern Tanakh (our Old Testament). When I asked him why he asked, he related a series of "Torah Rescue" and "Hidden/Recovered" Torah stories, a lot coming out of Poland and vicinity during and after WWII. The typical story has an heroic Jew hiding up a valuable Torah scroll to keep it from desecration, or recovering the Torah from some bad hat who was keeping it from the Righteous. A recent story out of Poland is typical of this kind of tale: http://bieganski-the...risoned-in.html

Nephi and his brothers' adventure getting the Brass Plates, including the Torah inscribed therein, fit right into this cultural, folkloric, and literary tradition: The heroic Son of Israel is tasked with recovering the valuable Torah (valuable not only for the medium it is recorded on, but especially for what it contains -- the means of continuing as a people) from a mustache-twirling bad guy . . . they face danger, intrigue and despair, and through divine intervention and no small amount of derring-do, they rescue the Torah, thus saving the people.

I've not seen this aspect of the Nephi/Laban adventure treated as fitting into this genre. Anybody know anybody who's written on the subject?

Nice catch. The BoM also contains a far more tragic type of Torah narrative- being burnt alive with a Torah scroll. "I see scrolls burning, but the letters are ascending through the air..."

[volgadon]

Hmmm...this is a very interesting idea. Do we have any idea how far back these sorts of narratives go? Do they date back the pre-exilic Israel? That might be something worth trying to research.

I'm pretty sure that there is something of this sort in the traditional legends of the revolts against the Romans, but I'll conduct a search.

[volgadon]

BTW, related to the Torah rescue narrative is one involving the rescue of a sacred melody. The best known involves a Hasidic composer who came up with a powerful, haunting melody for Maimonides' declaration of whole-hearted faith in the Messiah's advent, even if he tarries. The melody was composed en route to the death camps, and its authors promised half his share in the world to come to any that could escape and carry it to the Rebbe. Two young Hasidim volunteered, and jumped out of the train. One broke his neck, but the other made it to safety, and preserved the melody. The author died in the gas chambers, with the song on his lips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks899dP00os

Edited March 5, 2013 by volgadon

[volgadon]

BTW, if we suppose that Lehi and family weren't particularly pious before Lehi's call, then we have another interesting example of a Jewish narrative- the proselyte (be it to conversion to Judaism, or to rabbinic standards of study and piety) saves the Torah, or engages it with a particularly powerful attachment.

[Maidservant]

The Joseph Smith story with hiding the Book of Mormon might also fit the type, then, yea?

[saemo]

I learned recently from a good friend, an observant Jew, son of the local Temple President in New York State, who converted as a teen, did a mission in South America, and has raised his children (a very Tevyaesque 4 daughters) LDS and remains active LDS, about a phenomenon in Jewish history and folklore that bears on Book of Mormon study in my view.

He asked me one day if the Brass Plates were the Torah. I was a bit surprised that he wasn't sure, but I reminded him of what he already knew: the Torah (the 5 books of Moses in our Old Testament) was part of the material contained in the Brass Plates kept by Laban, along with some of the Prophets and other Writings contained in the modern Tanakh (our Old Testament). When I asked him why he asked, he related a series of "Torah Rescue" and "Hidden/Recovered" Torah stories, a lot coming out of Poland and vicinity during and after WWII. The typical story has an heroic Jew hiding up a valuable Torah scroll to keep it from desecration, or recovering the Torah from some bad hat who was keeping it from the Righteous. A recent story out of Poland is typical of this kind of tale: http://bieganski-the...risoned-in.html

Nephi and his brothers' adventure getting the Brass Plates, including the Torah inscribed therein, fit right into this cultural, folkloric, and literary tradition: The heroic Son of Israel is tasked with recovering the valuable Torah (valuable not only for the medium it is recorded on, but especially for what it contains -- the means of continuing as a people) from a mustache-twirling bad guy . . . they face danger, intrigue and despair, and through divine intervention and no small amount of derring-do, they rescue the Torah, thus saving the people.

I've not seen this aspect of the Nephi/Laban adventure treated as fitting into this genre. Anybody know anybody who's written on the subject?

I have thought that if there were Jews living in the Americas, one evidence of this would be the Torah. There is no such thing as a Jewish community without a Torah, and its associated items of worship and protection. But, I haven't seen anything that would indicate a Jewish presence in the Americas prior to the 19th century.

[USU78]

The Joseph Smith story with hiding the Book of Mormon might also fit the type, then, yea?

Wow! This is a great catch, MS. Of course it is, and I thought about bringing it up, but . . . isn't it cooler when you do it?!

[USU78]

I have thought that if there were Jews living in the Americas, one evidence of this would be the Torah. There is no such thing as a Jewish community without a Torah, and its associated items of worship and protection. But, I haven't seen anything that would indicate a Jewish presence in the Americas prior to the 19th century.

Prolly true, except for that utter destruction of the Nephites thingy . . . "Oh, ye fair ones!"

[volgadon]

I have thought that if there were Jews living in the Americas, one evidence of this would be the Torah. There is no such thing as a Jewish community without a Torah, and its associated items of worship and protection. But, I haven't seen anything that would indicate a Jewish presence in the Americas prior to the 19th century.

In 2nd grade we had an all-night field trip to Tzfat, where a Torah scribe showed us the process of creating a Torah scroll. I think I've been fascinated by the production aspect ever since.

As for associated items of worship and protection, do you mean this kind of innovation from the 10th century Jewish diaspora in Babylon?

http://cja.huji.ac.il/Ritual_Objects/Iraq/Torah%20case_Iraq_%20Baghdad_1932_%20Sc_%20015-5.html

Edited March 6, 2013 by volgadon

[volgadon]

Perhaps you mean this kind of innovation from 15th century Ashkenazic lands.

http://www.lessing-photo.com/p2/300501/30050107.jpg

[volgadon]

Perhaps you mean this thing, which in its fancy form appeared only at the end of the 16th century in Bohemia, and in the few times that they are mentioned earlier in the same century, were simple wooden rods.

http://www.larkcrafts.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Yad-1-BMA.jpg

[bcuzbcuz]

I learned recently from a good friend, an observant Jew, son of the local Temple President in New York State, who converted as a teen, did a mission in South America, and has raised his children (a very Tevyaesque 4 daughters) LDS and remains active LDS, about a phenomenon in Jewish history and folklore that bears on Book of Mormon study in my view.

He asked me one day if the Brass Plates were the Torah. I was a bit surprised that he wasn't sure, but I reminded him of what he already knew: the Torah (the 5 books of Moses in our Old Testament) was part of the material contained in the Brass Plates kept by Laban, along with some of the Prophets and other Writings contained in the modern Tanakh (our Old Testament). When I asked him why he asked, he related a series of "Torah Rescue" and "Hidden/Recovered" Torah stories, a lot coming out of Poland and vicinity during and after WWII. The typical story has an heroic Jew hiding up a valuable Torah scroll to keep it from desecration, or recovering the Torah from some bad hat who was keeping it from the Righteous. A recent story out of Poland is typical of this kind of tale: http://bieganski-the...risoned-in.html

Nephi and his brothers' adventure getting the Brass Plates, including the Torah inscribed therein, fit right into this cultural, folkloric, and literary tradition: The heroic Son of Israel is tasked with recovering the valuable Torah (valuable not only for the medium it is recorded on, but especially for what it contains -- the means of continuing as a people) from a mustache-twirling bad guy . . . they face danger, intrigue and despair, and through divine intervention and no small amount of derring-do, they rescue the Torah, thus saving the people.

I've not seen this aspect of the Nephi/Laban adventure treated as fitting into this genre. Anybody know anybody who's written on the subject?

Is there any evidence of the Torah ever being written on metal plates? I have never heard of any. The Torah was written on scrolls, either parchment or papyrus.

[USU78]

Is there any evidence of the Torah ever being written on metal plates? I have never heard of any. The Torah was written on scrolls, either parchment or papyrus.

Yes. JSJr and at least 12 others saw and touched the Mormon plates in broad daylight. Beyond that, I do not know.

And, before you get all excited, note that there's a fair amount of Torah quotation in the BoM.

[USU78]

Found some'at: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=19&num=1&id=637

[bcuzbcuz]

Found some'at: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/review/?vol=19&num=1&id=637

And I've checked out all the above named sources and they are all credit card sized or smaller, usually one sheet thick. The only listed finds containing more than one sheet are with fairly large text and are so far unreadable.

[volgadon]

http://books.google.com/books?id=0_KHFd6bDHoC&pg=PA9&dq=oldest+torah+pointer&hl=en&sa=X&ei=veg2UfzUCqOEygGN44CwBw&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=oldest%20torah%20pointer&f=false

This should be enough to show how false Saemo's claim is that since no Torah and its "associated items of worship and protection" have been found in the Americas, that indicates no Jewish presence. Most of the surviving articles are only from a few centuries ago, and the "associated items of worship and protection" were nearly all perishable wood and fabric before the medieval era.

[saemo]

http://books.google....pointer&f=false

This should be enough to show how false Saemo's claim is that since no Torah and its "associated items of worship and protection" have been found in the Americas, that indicates no Jewish presence. Most of the surviving articles are only from a few centuries ago, and the "associated items of worship and protection" were nearly all perishable wood and fabric before the medieval era.

Thanks, I googled around some myself yesterday, and agree that a 600BC timeframe would not have these items.

Still, I would like to see evidence for the Torah in the Americas prior to the 17th century.

Edited March 7, 2013 by saemo