The Prophet Is Infallible

[mfbukowski]

I reject the notion of infallibility outrightly. Not because of some silly desire to sin or rebel but because the notion is pretentious, audacious, and arrogant. Look at the history of the RCC, for example.

My aunt who is a Catholic who lives in Price, UT says this:

"Catholics say the Pope is infallible but don't believe it. Mormons say the Prophet isn't infallible and don't believe it."

The reality is that we are actually pretty close to the Catholics on this one. Catholics believe as far as I recall, that the pope is infallible only when he speaks "ex cathedra" AS the pope which he nearly never ever does and then it is ratified by all the cardinals etc

Kind of like our creating canonized scripture- hardly ever happens, must be sustained by the church and GA's etc. The process is actually pretty similar.

[cwald]

I don't think anyone on this board has the right or the authority to tell me I should leave the church and join the Baptist or the Buddhist just because I have a different faith and perspective.

I have never heard the prophets make that assertion. The prophets are quite open and welcoming. Perhaps the members should listen to them and follow their example.

[cwald]

I don't think anyone on this board has the right or the authority to tell me I should leave the church and join the Baptist or the Buddhist just because I have a different faith and perspective.

I have never heard the prophets make that assertion. The prophets are quite open and welcoming. Perhaps the members should listen to them and follow their example.

[cwald]

I don't think anyone on this board has the right or the authority to tell me I should leave the church and join the Baptist or the Buddhist just because I have a different faith and perspective.

I have never heard the prophets make that assertion. The prophets are quite open and welcoming. Perhaps the members should listen to them and follow their example.

[cwald]

Oops. Smart phone triple post error.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't think anyone on this board has the right or the authority to tell me I should leave the church and join the Baptist or the Buddhist just because I have a different faith and perspective.

I have never heard the prophets make that assertion. The prophets are quite open and welcoming. Perhaps the members should listen to them and follow their example.

This looks like a straw man.

[cwald]

Nope. No straw man.

Just don't like some of comments on this thread.

[ERayR]

Nope. No straw man.

Just don't like some of comments on this thread.

And that means what?

[bcuzbcuz]

The official doctrine is that no one but God is infallible.

And even God regrets some of his actions.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Nope. No straw man.

Just don't like some of comments on this thread.

Ok, who presented an argument like this?

"tell me I should leave the church and join the Baptist or the Buddhist just because I have a different faith and perspective".

And further who argued that "this board does have the authority" even if they did argue that you should join a different faith because you have a different perspective?

[Anti-NOMunistJackMormon]

Okay so SWK made a statement that could be called racist, but it's hardly a KKK endorsement. I have a lot of native blood from my mother's side and at the time most native Mormons didn't take it this way and, in many cases felt uplifted and special because they were "Lamanite". Yes it's a bit ignorant, insensitive by today's standards, and yes politically incorrect. However lets not start pulling "Hitler Cards" to prove a point. Right or wrong the LDS church has done a lot to try and help Native Americans not always with the best results but they did a hell of a lot more than many, many others.

Want to know who did a lot of harm? How about DNA scientists with an axe to grind making a point of proving natives weren't a special people to be redeemed and crushing thier faith and testimony.

[mfbukowski]

I don't think anyone on this board has the right or the authority to tell me I should leave the church and join the Baptist or the Buddhist just because I have a different faith and perspective.

I have never heard the prophets make that assertion. The prophets are quite open and welcoming. Perhaps the members should listen to them and follow their example.

I certainly never meant to imply that.

The question was about what a person should do if they found themselves in conflict with, and I presume concerned about, statements made by General Authorities which conflicted with their personal beliefs.

My point was simply, that if you are troubled by such things, leaving the church is one option.

On the other hand, most definitely, staying is another, but the point is, if you decide to stay you should not have a problem with your position conflicting with the GA's.

All I meant to suggest was that it doesn't make sense to belong to a church you don't believe in, and the person to whom I was responding is constantly complaining about that very point. All he ever does is complain about church doctrine, and I can't see for the life of me why he is still a member. He is a constant and vocal critic on this board and others and yet he teaches Sunday school every week and pretends he believes.

I was suggesting that is not a healthy position

[thesometimesaint]

Life is too short to busy myself with things I don't believe in.

[mfbukowski]

Life is too short to busy myself with things I don't believe in.

I think I will join and contribute to, and spend hours of my life discussing the merits of the Flat Earth Society and teaching why earth flatness is the only way to understand the data just so I can understand that person.

(NOT!)

[altersteve]

And even God regrets some of his actions.

I disagree with that. If you're talking about the statement in Genesis where it says God regretted flooding the world, I believe that's cleared up in the Joseph Smith Translation.

[Damien the Leper]

I disagree with that. If you're talking about the statement in Genesis where it says God regretted flooding the world, I believe that's cleared up in the Joseph Smith Translation.

The JST is just another interpretation and translation. It is no more a correction of scripture than the NWT.

[Anti-NOMunistJackMormon]

As to infallibilty I've never hear the church state that the prophet was infallible. The statement that the prophet would never lead the church astray has been said many times. Leading astray and infallible are two different things. All too often people in the church extend this to even the smallest level of responsibility. Even Jesus' own apostles were not infallible but did not necessarily lead anyone astray. We are all human and make human mistakes and are not perfect. Why we expect that simply because someone is called is beyond me.

We all know of examples of apostates who do take things out of context and taking things to far, but that doesn't mean we have to throw away wisdom and moderation out with common sense. We also know and believe in continuing revalation as well as knowledge that God gives us. While the Bible gave certain requirements of the people in the Old Testament not everything observed by those generations are required of us and in many cases more is required of us in some areas of doctrine.

[RDA]

It is interesting to see the change in the way that apostles say things and do things and then if they happen to become the president of the church there is a drastic difference.

examples would be

- President Benson letting the political talk dissapear once prophet.

- Joseph Fielding Smith quit stressing his views on evolution and age of the earth.

I think that this difference is significant enough to take note of.

[thesometimesaint]

Rubbadonga;

Welcome to the Glass Menagerie.

It does seem to have a mellowing effect.

[mfbukowski]

I disagree with that. If you're talking about the statement in Genesis where it says God regretted flooding the world, I believe that's cleared up in the Joseph Smith Translation.

Maybe that's why the scientific data does not show evidence of a worldwide flood.

God erased it.

[cinepro]

It is interesting to see the change in the way that apostles say things and do things and then if they happen to become the president of the church there is a drastic difference.

- Joseph Fielding Smith quit stressing his views on evolution and age of the earth.

I think that this difference is significant enough to take note of.

Yes, after 60 years as an Apostle, Joseph Fielding Smith really softened up on the whole evolution thing in the 18 months he was Prophet.

I suspect he didn't say whatever it is you think he might have said as Prophet because he didn't know that when he became Prophet all the things he had been teaching for the last 60 years became dubious, or he knew that even if he did teach those things as Prophet the people that didn't want to believe it still wouldn't listen to him.

Edited June 16, 2012 by cinepro

[mfbukowski]

Yes, after 60 years as an Apostle, Joseph Fielding Smith really softened up on the whole evolution thing in the 18 months he was Prophet.

I suspect he didn't say whatever it is you think he might have said as Prophet because he didn't know that when he became Prophet all the things he had been teaching for the last 60 years became dubious, or he knew that even if he did teach those things as Prophet the people that didn't want to believe it still wouldn't listen to him.

Karnak the mind reader strikes again.

[Lightbearer]

I find it amusing all the what if's and wherefores regarding "infallible" prophets. I suggest that the only reason it is mentioned here is to give people an excuse not to heed the words of the living prophet. I have recognized that game long ago for what it really is, a faithless disloyal, state of open rebellion. If a person says yes a prophet is infallible then at once they are bombarded with "questionable statements" that no "reasonable person" would agree with. Thus "proving" that the prophet is not infallible. If the person says no they are not infallible, then they strike at the heart of the matter- they say well if you cannot trust all the words of the prophets then you cannot trust ANY of their words! This opens up a whole vista of opinion that states that anyone's opinion can be just as inspired as the prophet's! Thus effectively nullifying the following scriptures:

"What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same."

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 1:38)

Or the following:

"Prepare ye, prepare ye for that which is to come, for the Lord is nigh; And the anger of the Lord is kindled, and his sword is bathed in heaven, and it shall fall upon the inhabitants of the earth. And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people; For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant; They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall." (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 1:12 - 16)

As also the following:

"Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith. For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name's glory." (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 21:4 - 6)

I suggest that this problem is manufactured by those who do not want to sustain the prophet for whatever reason, perhaps they are hell bent on getting approval of an unorthodox view (such as no real Adam and Eve, or no global flood) or even worse they want validation for the abomination of SS Marriage! The renouncing of outmoded moral values and the endorsing of new more enlightened views is an old tactic of Lucifer. Anything to deny the spirit of revelation and to elevate the teachings of men. That is why the Savior warned the disciples to beware of "false prophets" (he was not talking about the prophets and apostles He placed in His own Church) those who oppose the true prophets or try to undermine their authority to speak for the Lord.

[Storm Rider]

I find it amusing all the what if's and wherefores regarding "infallible" prophets. I suggest that the only reason it is mentioned here is to give people an excuse not to heed the words of the living prophet. I have recognized that game long ago for what it really is, a faithless disloyal, state of open rebellion. If a person says yes a prophet is infallible then at once they are bombarded with "questionable statements" that no "reasonable person" would agree with. Thus "proving" that the prophet is not infallible. If the person says no they are not infallible, then they strike at the heart of the matter- they say well if you cannot trust all the words of the prophets then you cannot trust ANY of their words! This opens up a whole vista of opinion that states that anyone's opinion can be just as inspired as the prophet's! Thus effectively nullifying the following scriptures:

Or the following:

As also the following:

I suggest that this problem is manufactured by those who do not want to sustain the prophet for whatever reason, perhaps they are hell bent on getting approval of an unorthodox view (such as no real Adam and Eve, or no global flood) or even worse they want validation for the abomination of SS Marriage! The renouncing of outmoded moral values and the endorsing of new more enlightened views is an old tactic of Lucifer. Anything to deny the spirit of revelation and to elevate the teachings of men. That is why the Savior warned the disciples to beware of "false prophets" (he was not talking about the prophets and apostles He placed in His own Church) those who oppose the true prophets or try to undermine their authority to speak for the Lord.

My, we do paint with a big paint brush. I will give you my two cents. The reason I must believe that prophets are infallible, to be both frank and very blunt, is because not doing so leaves me in the position of thinking that they are only a bunch of old men that don't know revelation from a hole in their socks. If BY can spout stupidities about how Mary was impregnated, Adam was God, and Blacks can't hold the priesthood WITHOUT declaring any degree of revelation, then I have to throw the whole lot out since Joseph as just men, but not actually prophets, seers, and revelators.

However, the moment I conclude that these are first and foremost just men who put their pants on the same way that I do BUT they are called of God and have the keys of the kingdom; that when they speak as a prophet, and not as a man, then I know that I am in good keeping with Joseph and every other prophet throughout time. I know that I can follow them without reserve or reticence.

Man was not made for the Church, but the Church was made for man. The moment I am forced to believe in a specific set of doctrines and act a certain way to please the leadership or other members, then I will traipse my fanny right out of the Church with the full knowledge that it is in a complete state of apostasy. It will have become like every other man-made church that exists ont he earth.

Understand that these are men called of God, full stop. They are not perfect, they do not profess to be perfect, and have never done so....along with every other prophet throughout history. They do their best to serve in their respective capacities; sometimes their choices are not so good. Sometimes they speak as with fire and stand in the very presence of God Almighty. And the next day they are just men.

The moment I hear some member spouting off on how great and perfect the leaders are, I generally just shake my head and pray that when they learn they are just men that the fall from their pedestals, inappropriately placed, will not be so far that the member does not lose their testimony about the truthfulness of the restored gospel and the reality that God works with mortals and not perfected beings. God has been trying to teach his children since the time of Peter to learn to live by the guidance of the Holy Spirit both first and last. If the Church is successful in teaching this to the world then it will have done a great thing to usher in the Kingdom of God and not have the membership caught unawares with their lamps empty of the much needed oil that only comes through a constant relationship with the Second Comforter.

I am able to believe in the restoration of the gospel because I know that they are just men; each of them a rough stone that has put their shoulder to the wheel and helped to roll forth the gopsel in these last days. Some have been noble and great; some have been good administrators, some have been good financial counselors, and some have been truly men of God. Some have been all of them at the same time while most have not been. Some speculate far too much for their own good and for ours. Some have gone to far and the majority have stuck to the fundamentals. The moment they start breathing their own ether far too much and begin to think they are infallible....well, I guess I want to see how the Lord handles that bit of the story.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

The moment I hear some member spouting off on how great and perfect the leaders are, I generally just shake my head and pray that when they learn they are just men that the fall from their pedestals, inappropriately placed, will not be so far that the member does not lose their testimony about the truthfulness of the restored gospel and the reality that God works with mortals and not perfected beings.

Amen x 100. Good post, Storm Rider.

Edited June 18, 2012 by JeremyOrbe-Smith