145 replies to this topic

[bcuzbcuz]

cdowis, on 12 May 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

We have discussed this many times in other threads and it is not as simple as you portray it.

There is a significant sampling error from the Amerindians.  The samples are only done to those extant survivor groups, and preclude samples from the hundreds/thousands of groups which had become extinct.

A couple of examples:

The Chicago study showed that a full blood American Indian has a common ancestor with a woman from Greece.

The study on haplogroup X showed differences between the Siberian samples and Amerindians, and concluded that the common group needed to be found elsewhere.

Granted, as you state, I over-simplified my presentation of mtDNA. But your idea that haplogroupX (Ojibway natives) should relate to a woman from Greece was in a study that was premature in its judgement. Recovering mtDNA is not possible from skeletons so you rightly state that the sampling excludes extinct groups. Whether there were hundreds or thousands of such extinct group is also wild speculation. But the library of mtDNA is ever increasing, as are the now millions of artifacts from early populations. So far, the links to Europe are the matter of fringe research that has found little support.


". . . the popular depiction of Kennewick Man as a pre-Columbian Caucasoid in the New World, coupled with the discovery of haplogroup X as a founding Native American lineage, fueled premature speculation about early European migrations to the New World. Genetic evidence does not support such a migration. "

Mitochondrial DNA Studies of Native Americans:



Conceptions and Misconceptions of the
Population Prehistory of the Americas


JASON A. ESHLEMAN, RIPAN S. MALHI, AND DAVID GLENN SMITH

[cdowis]

bcuzbcuz, on 13 May 2012 - 02:21 AM, said:

Granted, as you state, I over-simplified my presentation of mtDNA. But your idea that haplogroupX (Ojibway natives) should relate to a woman from Greece was in a study that was premature in its judgement.

Haplogroup X and the Greek connection are two completely unrelated.  I was only using them as two different examples.

Recovering mtDNA is not possible from skeletons so you rightly state that the sampling excludes extinct groups. Whether there were hundreds or thousands of such extinct group is also wild speculation. But the library of mtDNA is ever increasing, as are the now millions of artifacts from early populations. So far, the links to Europe are the matter of fringe research that has found little support.

The fact remains that the sampling error has not been resolved.  It is "fringe" science to pretend otherwise.  


". . . the popular depiction of Kennewick Man as a pre-Columbian Caucasoid in the New World, coupled with the discovery of haplogroup X as a founding Native American lineage, fueled premature speculation about early European migrations to the New World. Genetic evidence does not support such a migration. "

Nor does it preclude it.  "We just don't know" but you asserted that we do know. In any case, I am not making the the claim that the original inhabitants were European, only asking for proof of the Asian only claim.

Edited by cdowis, 13 May 2012 - 06:43 PM.

[Robert F. Smith]

bcuzbcuz, on 13 May 2012 - 02:21 AM, said:

Granted, as you state, I over-simplified my presentation of mtDNA. But your idea that haplogroupX (Ojibway natives) should relate to a woman from Greece was in a study that was premature in its judgement. Recovering mtDNA is not possible from skeletons so you rightly state that the sampling excludes extinct groups. Whether there were hundreds or thousands of such extinct group is also wild speculation. But the library of mtDNA is ever increasing, as are the now millions of artifacts from early populations. So far, the links to Europe are the matter of fringe research that has found little support.

First, mtDNA can and is recovered from human skeletal remains, and is a very active and productive area of physical anthropology.  See the following typical examples:

Shook, Beth Alison Schultz, and David Glenn Smith, “Using ancient mtDNA to reconstruct the population history of northeastern North America,” American journal of physical anthropology, 137 (2008):14-29.

Kemp, Brian M., Tiffiny A Tung, and Marshall L Summar, “Genetic continuity after the collapse of the Wari empire: Mitochondrial DNA profiles from Wari and post-Wari populations in the ancient Andes,” American journal of physical anthropology, 140 (2009):80-91.

Perez, S. Ivan, Valeria Bernal, and Paula N Gonzalez, “Morphological differentiation of aboriginal human populations from Tierra del Fuego (Patagonia): implications for South American peopling,” American journal of physical anthropology, 133 (2007):1067-1079.

Lewis, Cecil M Lewis, Raúl Y Tito, Beatriz Lizárraga, and Anne C Stone, “Land, language, and loci: mtDNA in Native Americans and the genetic history of Peru,” American journal of physical anthropology, 127 (2005):351-360.

Bolnick, Deborah A., and David Glenn Smith, “Unexpected patterns of mitochondrial DNA variation among Native Americans from the southeastern United States,” American journal of physical anthropology. 122 (2003):336-354.

Second, the evidence for very early (ca. 20,000 bp) migration from Europe to the east coast of America is not by any means a fringe idea:  See, for example,

Stanford, Dennis, and Bruce A. Bradley, Across Atlantic Ice: The Origin of America’s Clovis Culture (U.C. Press, 2012).

Hammond, Norman, “Where Did the New World's First Settlers Really Come From?” The Daily Beast, April 2, 2012, online at
http://www.thedailyb...-come-from.html

Edited by Robert F. Smith, 14 May 2012 - 07:17 AM.

[bcuzbcuz]

Robert F. Smith, on 14 May 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

First, mtDNA can and is recovered from human skeletal remains, and is a very active and productive area of physical anthropology.  See the following typical examples:

Shook, Beth Alison Schultz, and David Glenn Smith, “Using ancient mtDNA to reconstruct the population history of northeastern North America,” American journal of physical anthropology, 137 (2008):14-29.

Kemp, Brian M., Tiffiny A Tung, and Marshall L Summar, “Genetic continuity after the collapse of the Wari empire: Mitochondrial DNA profiles from Wari and post-Wari populations in the ancient Andes,” American journal of physical anthropology, 140 (2009):80-91.

Perez, S. Ivan, Valeria Bernal, and Paula N Gonzalez, “Morphological differentiation of aboriginal human populations from Tierra del Fuego (Patagonia): implications for South American peopling,” American journal of physical anthropology, 133 (2007):1067-1079.

Lewis, Cecil M Lewis, Raúl Y Tito, Beatriz Lizárraga, and Anne C Stone, “Land, language, and loci: mtDNA in Native Americans and the genetic history of Peru,” American journal of physical anthropology, 127 (2005):351-360.

Bolnick, Deborah A., and David Glenn Smith, “Unexpected patterns of mitochondrial DNA variation among Native Americans from the southeastern United States,” American journal of physical anthropology. 122 (2003):336-354.

I stand corrected.

Robert F. Smith, on 14 May 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

Second, the evidence for very early (ca. 20,000 bp) migration from Europe to the east coast of America is not by any means a fringe idea:  See, for example,

Stanford, Dennis, and Bruce A. Bradley, Across Atlantic Ice: The Origin of America’s Clovis Culture (U.C. Press, 2012).

Hammond, Norman, “Where Did the New World's First Settlers Really Come From?” The Daily Beast, April 2, 2012, online at
http://www.thedailyb...-come-from.html

My original criticism stands. Merely finding clovis like artifacts in two places does not create a link. Furthermore the clovis tools found in Europe do not contain the concave groove at the base as found on thousands (50-100 thousands) of clovis finds in the Americas.

Just how Stanford would have these first settlers make it across these Atlantic ices, with attention to survival along a glaciers edge, would be entertaining to read, Since I have no intention of buying said book, please cut and paste the appropriate quotes.

[Storm Rider]

I read these types of conversations and I always come away shaking my head.  It appears that the fact is that neither side has any definitive statement on an exclusive expansion into the Western Hemisphere.  Each time someone tries to use science to exclude any European, Middle East, African migration it is quickly determined that science does not support that type of exclusive claim.  Why is anyone so eager to claim an exclusive location of migration?  Does it make sense to use science to prove this type of agenda WHEN CURRENT SCIENCE DOES NOT SUPPORT THE CLAIM?

I am still shaking my head and just wish it would all go away except for scientific journals.  Just let science speak for itself and leave off on all the agenda related hubris.

[Robert F. Smith]

bcuzbcuz, on 15 May 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

I stand corrected.



My original criticism stands. Merely finding clovis like artifacts in two places does not create a link. Furthermore the clovis tools found in Europe do not contain the concave groove at the base as found on thousands (50-100 thousands) of clovis finds in the Americas.

Just how Stanford would have these first settlers make it across these Atlantic ices, with attention to survival along a glaciers edge, would be entertaining to read, Since I have no intention of buying said book, please cut and paste the appropriate quotes.

Sorry, I don't have a copy of Stanford & Bradley.  My point is that, with senior scholars such as these, in addition to the recently retired Norman Hammond taking the Solutrean theory seriously, this is no longer a "fringe" matter, even though conclusive evidence is lacking (no DNA from Clovis or Solutrean cultures yet).

You are correct, of course, that there is no fluting of Solutrean projectile points.  But then pre-Clovis points in America are likewise unfluted (as at Meadowcroft Rock Shelter), and fluting may merely be a later Clovis development.  After all, fluting is also absent from Siberian points.  The whole question turns on the technical similarity of pressure flaking in both the European Solutrean tradition, and the pre-Clovis tool-kit in America.  See Wm J. Hranicky, Prehistoric Projectile Points Found Along the Atlantic Coastal Plain, 3rd ed. (Boca Raton: Universal., 2011).

Aside from all that, however, it is certain that human diffusion occurred across the oceans from the Old World to the New and vice-versa (probably many times). The genetic characteristics of a wide range of biological items which could not have come across Beringia prove this with finality:

Sorenson, John L., and Carl L. Johannessen, “Biological Evidence for Pre-Columbian Transoceanic Voyages,” in Victor H. Mair, ed., Contact and Exchange in the Ancient World (Honolulu: Univ. of Hawai’i Press, 2006), 238-297.

Sorenson, John L., and Carl L. Johannessen, World Trade and Biological Exchanges Before 1492 (N.Y./Bloomington, IN: iUniverse, 2009).

Here is the Amazon.com blurb on the second book:

People moved into America very early across the Bering Strait. By the fifth millennia B.C.E. tropical sailors brought diseases to America and took plants and animals in both directions. Long before Columbus, tropical sailors carefully selected crops from New World highlands and shorelines, wet and dry climates, and took them to the Old World where they were grown in appropriate environments. Medicinal and psychedelic plants were traded and maintained in Egypt and Peru during separate, 1,400-year periods. This implies that maritime trade was continuous. In this groundbreaking book, learn about: 84 plants that were taken from the Americas to the Old World. What plants and animals were brought to the Americas. Why world trade was essential for transfer of so many. Interconnectedness of civilizations had to result from world trade. Dating of 18 species by archaeology with radio carbon shows dispersal. And much more! Plants, diseases, and animals from America were distributed throughout the world, across the oceans before 1492. It is time for scientists, teachers, and students to reconsider their beliefs about the early history of civilization with World Trade and Biological Exchanges Before 1492.