Nisfor Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 And yet, no critic has yet explained Pahoran, Paanchi, Pacumeni, Korihor, Alma ... They dance in circles til they are dizzy ... but they never answer the question. Did the devil teach JS ancient Egyptian/Hebrew? In just a small amount of Googling I found a short LightPlanet entry on "names in the Book of Mormon" and how there was so much similarity between BoM names and actual historical names unknown when the BoM was being written.The concluding statement of the article is "Admittedly the study of names is open to much speculation in understanding sounds of words and making the associations. This is not a conclusive proof but it adds to the others that I have mentioned and will mention. However, each of these points could be expanded upon if anyone is interested."Critics don't have to "dance in circles til they are dizzy" to "answer the question" when the answer is provided by the apologists themselves in the statement above.Joseph Smith made up so many names in the Book of Mormon that it would be amazing if he didn't have 4 or 5 "hits" on actual unknown ancient names.
t2t2 Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 Pahoran, Paanchi, Pacumeni, Korihor, Alma Paran, Pinon, Shimhi, Korah and Cummin are Biblical names. The above can easily be seen to be Biblical names flipped on their heads. As for Alma....I believe it's a girl's name. Something about "betrothed virgin", if I remember correctly. If I were to take Bible names, rearrange the blocks, add a few nifty sounding letters - poof - odds are I'll come up with some names that will look and sound Hebrew. It really amazes me that any of this impresses a Mormon.
Magyar Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 Pahoran, Paanchi, Pacumeni, Korihor, Alma Paran, Pinon, Shimhi, Korah and Cummin are Biblical names. The above can easily be seen to be Biblical names flipped on their heads. As for Alma....I believe it's a girl's name. Something about "betrothed virgin", if I remember correctly. If I were to take Bible names, rearrange the blocks, add a few nifty sounding letters - poof - odds are I'll come up with some names that will look and sound Hebrew. It really amazes me that any of this impresses a Mormon. Actually, the above noted are ancient Egyptian names, with Egyptian meanings -- NOT borrowed from or based on the Bible! Alma has recently been validated as a male Hebrew name, from the Bar Kochba era.
rameumptom Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 The concluding statement of the article is "Admittedly the study of names is open to much speculation in understanding sounds of words and making the associations. This is not a conclusive proof but it adds to the others that I have mentioned and will mention. However, each of these points could be expanded upon if anyone is interested."Critics don't have to "dance in circles til they are dizzy" to "answer the question" when the answer is provided by the apologists themselves in the statement above.Joseph Smith made up so many names in the Book of Mormon that it would be amazing if he didn't have 4 or 5 "hits" on actual unknown ancient names. This is one of the dumbest responses I've EVER seen on this list! Congratulations, here's your sign.... **With all the name possibilities in the world, it is amazing that Joseph Smith nailed them so accurately. Joseph could have stuck with only Biblical names. He could have only used non-Biblical names. He could have ended or started all names with an "X". Or a "Z", etc. Names could all have had the same number of consonants, vowels, syllables. They could have had no vowels whatsoever. All names could have been 3 or 4 letter words, or longer than 55 letters.He could have used description names, as archaeologists do for Mayan names: Seven Rabbits, or Brain-Deficit-Man.Then again, he could have called everyone "Chuck." Or "Bubba." Finally, he could have just been descriptive and said, "the prophet with the blond duck-tail...."There was a greater chance he would have had NO hits, than to have had as many as he did.** Personal thanks to Bill Engval for his input and sign technology....
cinepro Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 I speak no Hebrew or Egyptian, so maybe this excercise can tell us something.If I were to write a Book of Mormon-type story, I would use the following 50 names, which took me about 10 minutes to come up with. To get Hebrew-sounding names, I referenced names that are found in the Bible, and changed some of them. Some were not changed, some had one or two letters changed, others had syllables re-arranged.Now, of the following 50 names, what are the odds of me having exactly "guessed" an Egyptian or non-Biblical Hebrew name? How about coming within one or two letters of an Egyptian or non-Biblical Hebrew name? What if we expand the possible "hit" list to any ancient middle-eastern civilization: Babylon, Assyria etc.If any of my "hits" also appear in the Bible, would you be less impressed, since I have told you I started with Biblical names to begin with?AndoraPicuminAshishAdamihaAchanAdmahBelihahBealihiahBerinonaBarakelBarukadConiahCuzDianirDilianEkurEldedEluEmmaunEphrenEranFestisGethGaberGediliahGederaGidionaGihonHadadRithmahHaliHamorHamulHanachJabelJadduaRamothJemimaJeriathJogbehiahKolariahLehabemLysiasMachpilahMamriNahorNethinamObidiahOsheaPelaiah
t2t2 Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 Actually, the above noted are ancient Egyptian names, with Egyptian meanings -- NOT borrowed from or based on the Bible! Alma has recently been validated as a male Hebrew name, from the Bar Kochba era. I don't have a copy of Nibley's books...but I've seen him take some pretty wide leaps at times when it comes to names. You can say "Sam" is an Egyptian hero name...but I can say "nah...he just used Sam from Samuel". And I can look and find no such name in my mythology books that I own. Saa and Suma are the closest I can find.How about Nephi? Closest I can hunt up is Nephthys. Close? Kind of...I guess. But it's not the same thing as "Nephi was an Egyptian hero name!". Um...no it wasn't. Zeezrom, Zenoc? I can't find anything close. Show me the errors of my ways! But here's an odd question. The Hebrews were ALL about familial legacy and tradition. Why in the world would a supposed Jewish prophet name his kids after pagan heros?Also - why does anyone assume that anyone past the first generation would even know these Egyptian names? Say I uproot my family and move to the jungles of Africa. I speak English. I also speak conversation Korean. Let's assume I considered Koreans to be pagans or heretics...but they DO have a nifty writing system that I steal for my journals. So there we are in Africa. Do I name my kids after Korean gods and heroes? Do I throw korean words in the language I teach my kids? And 500 years later would you expect to find Korean names amongst those that became the new populace?I'm trying to figure out what part of this makes sense?
Magyar Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 Just a bit more validation for Alma, from FARMS:"But no well-informed person would make this mistake today, because the name Alma, as Hugh Nibley pointed out years ago,1 appears in an undeniably Semitic language document, one of the letters of Bar Kokhba, a leader in the Holy Land during the Second Jewish Revolt against the Romans around A.D. 130. The name, used in a business document that was written in the form of a letter, is Alma ben Yehudah (Alma, son of Yehudah). The accompanying photograph displays it, at the end of the fourth line (remember that Hebrew writing flows from right to left) spelled and at the beginning of the fourth line from the bottom, The initial consonant in the name is written in this letter with an aleph, the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet, however, the name probably should be derived from the root with an initial ayin, >lm. In the final centuries B.C. and the first centuries A.D., in the spoken language among the Jews the consonants aleph and ayin began to run together. As a result the letters representing those sounds tended to become interchangeable as well. The same coalescence can be seen in another Semitic tongue, Phoenician, where, for example, both and >lm. mean "eternity."The root for Alma, >lm. occurs twice in the Old Testament (1 Samuel 17:56 and 20:22) where it means "youth" or "lad." Both occurrences use a common vowel pattern for nouns in Semitic languages (the pattern is called the segholate form). In 1 Samuel 17:56, because of its position in the sentence this word supplies the original vowel, the a of the katl form. Thus >lm would have been pronounced almu in proto-Semitic, exactly what would be required for the Book of Mormon form, Alma. (The final -u is the nominative singular masculine case ending. Long before the vowel markings were added to the Hebrew consonantal script of the Old Testament, such vowels had all but disappeared from spoken Hebrew. Even in the earliest Hebrew documents, when case endings theoretically might still have existed in spoken Hebrew, such vowels would not have appeared because the script normally does not represent any vowels in the writing.)The final -a of Alma probably represents a hypocoristic ending. This means that the name was shortened in antiquity as a form of endearment (something like saying "Jackie" instead of "Jacquelyn"). At the same time, such hypocoristic endings commonly stood for the name of a deity in a drastically shortened form, most often a single final consonant, usually the letter aleph but also sometimes the letter hE, as the Bar Kokhba letter has it.
Bertram Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 t2t2,You said:"It really amazes me that any of this impresses a Mormon."You are jumping the gun a little are you not? As a Mormon I can honestly tell you that none of your post has impressed me at all!! Now was anyone (Mormons only please) else impressed by his post?Or should this be a new thread?
Magyar Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 For this to work, your made-up names would actually have to be be found later in actual archaeological sites or ancient documents not known to you at the time you composed them -- as has been the case with Alma, Sariah and others. They would also need to follow specific linguistic rules, such as incorporating the name of a god within them, such as Hor or Amon; or have specific meanings, such as indication of one's provenance, or match known prefixes or suffixes, which I believe the "Pa" prefix does in Egyptian.They cannot be mere authentic-sounding babble.
t2t2 Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 Now was anyone (Mormons only please) else impressed by his post?*sigh*...comments without any sort of substance. Or do you care to actually contribute to this thread with a post that explains your position?
cinepro Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 Oh, and something else:Have there ever been studies done to follow what happens to "names" when cultures combine? If the apologists are correct, and both the Nephites and Lamanites mixed in with larger existing populations of natives, at what point would we expect "native" names to start appearing in the story? Or, conversely, to what degree would we expect the imported names to influence the native naming conventions? Is it just me, or should we expect to see a decline in Hebrew and Egyptian names as time passes? Or, conversely, would we expect to eventually find indications in the archaelogical record that these foreign names were influencing the native naming conventions?There seem to be two seperate worlds of names: The "Book of Mormon" names, which are consistently tied to and derivitive of the Bible, and Mayan names that we know of seem distinctly "Mayan" to my untrained ear.Here are some example Mayan names. I would be the first to acknowledge "hit" if any of these had shown up in the Book of Mormon! Which makes you wonder...if the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon ever "comes forth", might we find a character or two named "Buluc Chabtan"?Ab Kin Zoc Acan Acat Ac Yanto Ah Bolom Tzacab Ah Cancum Ah Chun Caan Ah Ciliz Ah Cuxtal Ah Hulneb Ah Kin Ah Kin Xoc Ah Kumix Uinicob Ah Mun Ah Muzencab Ah Patnar Uinicob Ah Peku Ah Puch Ah Tabai Ah Uincir Dz'acab Ah Uuc Ticab Bacab Backlum Chaam Balam Bolontiku Buluc Chabtan Cacoch Camazotz Cauac Chac Chac Uayab Xoc Chamer Chaob Chantico Chibirias Chiccan Cit-Bolon-Tum Cizin Cocijo Colel Cab Colop U Uichkin Chamer Cum Hau Ekchuah Ghanan Gucumatz Hanhau Hunab Ku Hunapu Huncame Hunhau Hun-Hunapu Hurukan Itzamna Itzananohk'u Ix Ix Chebel Yax Ixchel Ixtab Ixzaluoh Kan-xib-yui Kinich Ahau Kucumatz Kukulcan Mulac Naum Nohochacyum Tepeu Tlacolotl Tohil Vucub-Caquix Xbalanque Xmucane and Xpiyacoc Yum Caax Zipakna and Kabrakan Zotz
cinepro Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 For this to work, your made-up names would actually have to be be found later in actual archaeological sites or ancient documents not known to you at the time you composed them -- as has been the case with Alma, Sariah and others.They would also need to follow specific linguistic rules, such as incorporating the name of a god within them, such as Hor or Amon; or have specific meanings, such as indication of one's provenance, or match known prefixes or suffixes, which I believe the "Pa" prefix does in Egyptian.They cannot be mere authentic-sounding babble.Fair enough. How many of my 50 would you assume could meet that additional criteria? (Granted, I don't for a second think there were ancient American pre-Christians naming their kids after Egyptian pagan deities, but just for the sake of conversation, I'll go with it...)
Bertram Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 t2t2,Sorry t2t2 that I have led you to sarcasm just because you were not aware of my position of substance!!If you had cared to read the bulk of my posts you would never be in doubt regarding my position on GOD'S TRUE CHURCH, my apologies.The BOOK OF MORMON.....An Account Written by.....THE HAND OF MORMON UPON PLATES.....Taken from the Plates of Nephi.Translated By JOSEPH SMITH, Jun.
t2t2 Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 Sorry t2t2 that I have led you to sarcasm just because you were not aware of my position of substance!!I wasn't asking for your testimony. If you are going to criticise the ideas in someone else' post it's common courtesy to explain yourself, as opposed to laughing and running. Go back to my post, read it again, and tell me what part of it you find to be in error.
rameumptom Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 Actually, the above noted are ancient Egyptian names, with Egyptian meanings -- NOT borrowed from or based on the Bible! Alma has recently been validated as a male Hebrew name, from the Bar Kochba era. I don't have a copy of Nibley's books...but I've seen him take some pretty wide leaps at times when it comes to names. You can say "Sam" is an Egyptian hero name...but I can say "nah...he just used Sam from Samuel". And I can look and find no such name in my mythology books that I own. Saa and Suma are the closest I can find.How about Nephi? Closest I can hunt up is Nephthys. Close? Kind of...I guess. But it's not the same thing as "Nephi was an Egyptian hero name!". Um...no it wasn't. Zeezrom, Zenoc? I can't find anything close. Show me the errors of my ways! But here's an odd question. The Hebrews were ALL about familial legacy and tradition. Why in the world would a supposed Jewish prophet name his kids after pagan heros?Also - why does anyone assume that anyone past the first generation would even know these Egyptian names? Say I uproot my family and move to the jungles of Africa. I speak English. I also speak conversation Korean. Let's assume I considered Koreans to be pagans or heretics...but they DO have a nifty writing system that I steal for my journals. So there we are in Africa. Do I name my kids after Korean gods and heroes? Do I throw korean words in the language I teach my kids? And 500 years later would you expect to find Korean names amongst those that became the new populace?I'm trying to figure out what part of this makes sense? Egyptian names and usage were all the rage in Israel circa 750-600 BC. Hezekiah's royal seal actually has a dung beetle on it, definitely a symbol of Egypt. A lot of Egyptian-styled artifacts can be found in Israel during this time frame.They believed that Egypt would save them from Assyria and Babylon, as Judah preferred the idea of being under Egypt than Mesopotamia.So it was not uncommon during that time for someone in the Palestine area to name their kids with Arabic or Egyptian names. Nibley believes that Lehi was a trader. In trading with the Arabians, he named his first sons Laman and Lemuel. In trading in Egypt, named his sons by Egyptian names Sam and Nephi. Later, when back in his Israelite heritage of traveling in the wilderness, named his youngest sons Jacob and Joseph.
rameumptom Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 Now was anyone (Mormons only please) else impressed by his post?*sigh*...comments without any sort of substance. Or do you care to actually contribute to this thread with a post that explains your position? sigh, that's what we were hoping to get from you t2t2.We've shown lots of evidence, and you dismiss it without any real evidence. You claim that anyone can make up names and have lucky guesses. However, you have yet to show us PROOF of your statement. Let's see you get some statistical data for all the statements made on names alone by LDS.What is the statistical chance of Joseph getting the prefixes and suffixes right for Egyptian AND Hebrew, for names that were not available in his day? I think you'll find that it isn't as easy you would like it to be. We have shown evidence, as in actual names that are authentic. Your work, if you choose to accept it, is to trump our evidence with actual evidence that disagrees with it, or shows it to be not out of the ordinary (statistics, for example showing that of 100 people, 51 could do the same as Joseph Smith). Until you come up with something, ANYTHING like this, you are just a lot of noise, droning on and on and on.
dacook Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 Now according to church critics, Joseph Smith fabricated all of these works after carefully studying, cover-to-cover, all of the following:- The King James version of the Bible - Ethan Smith's "Views of the Hebrews" - Solomon Spaulding manuscript- The Apocrypha- The works of Flavius Josephus- The complete works of ShakespeareAm I missing any? .... The writings of Emanuel Swedenborg.
rameumptom Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 Oh, and something else:Have there ever been studies done to follow what happens to "names" when cultures combine? If the apologists are correct, and both the Nephites and Lamanites mixed in with larger existing populations of natives, at what point would we expect "native" names to start appearing in the story? Or, conversely, to what degree would we expect the imported names to influence the native naming conventions? Is it just me, or should we expect to see a decline in Hebrew and Egyptian names as time passes? Or, conversely, would we expect to eventually find indications in the archaelogical record that these foreign names were influencing the native naming conventions?There seem to be two seperate worlds of names: The "Book of Mormon" names, which are consistently tied to and derivitive of the Bible, and Mayan names that we know of seem distinctly "Mayan" to my untrained ear.Here are some example Mayan names. I would be the first to acknowledge "hit" if any of these had shown up in the Book of Mormon! Which makes you wonder...if the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon ever "comes forth", might we find a character or two named "Buluc Chabtan"?Ab Kin Zoc Acan Acat Ac Yanto Ah Bolom Tzacab Ah Cancum Ah Chun Caan Ah Ciliz Ah Cuxtal Ah Hulneb Ah Kin Ah Kin Xoc Ah Kumix Uinicob Ah Mun Ah Muzencab Ah Patnar Uinicob Ah Peku Ah Puch Ah Tabai Ah Uincir Dz'acab Ah Uuc Ticab Bacab Backlum Chaam Balam Bolontiku Buluc Chabtan Cacoch Camazotz Cauac Chac Chac Uayab Xoc Chamer Chaob Chantico Chibirias Chiccan Cit-Bolon-Tum Cizin Cocijo Colel Cab Colop U Uichkin Chamer Cum Hau Ekchuah Ghanan Gucumatz Hanhau Hunab Ku Hunapu Huncame Hunhau Hun-Hunapu Hurukan Itzamna Itzananohk'u Ix Ix Chebel Yax Ixchel Ixtab Ixzaluoh Kan-xib-yui Kinich Ahau Kucumatz Kukulcan Mulac Naum Nohochacyum Tepeu Tlacolotl Tohil Vucub-Caquix Xbalanque Xmucane and Xpiyacoc Yum Caax Zipakna and Kabrakan Zotz Cultures don't combine very quickly. Look at cultures within our own country. Some of them are steadfastly slow in picking up new naming conventions. How many families do you know that work to keep certain names alive from generation to generation? In Texas, California and other locations with strong latino areas, many of them still use Spanish as their major language and celebrate 5 de Mayo (Mexican Independence Day), even though many of the families have been in this country for over a century. And there are lots more Jose's among them than there are Gary's.The Nephites struggled hard to keep their identity, so I don't see what the problem is of them retaining their own.Second, we don't know which groups they interacted with. Just because you can make a list of Mayan names means nothing. We don't know who they interacted with here. So it becomes a non-issue: neither side can prove nor disprove their point from it.Finally, you haven't addressed the issue of names from Hebrew/Egyptian sources. Scholars have been impressed with the naming conventions, including W.F. Albright who wrote a letter mentioning how impressed he was that Egyptian names found their way into the BoM.Personally, I value Albright's scholarship over that of most anti-Mormons, even if I don't always agree with him, either.Oh, BTW. It IS just you....
rameumptom Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 Off the topic of names, but still applicable to what Joseph would need to know: ancient stories from the Inca.Wiraqocha/Viracocha was a white, bearded God that liked wandering the world. Initially, he was a god without bones (a spirit).A time came when there was no sun for many days. The people were frightened and prayed to the gods to return the sun. It arose one day from the Lake Titicaca. About noon that day, the people saw the bearded white man in a tunic, who called himself Wiraqocha. He healed the sick, taught them his methods (including how to grow crops better), then departed over the ocean, promising to return again.This story directly ties to events in 3 Nephi.You can read more of this at my website: Viracocha and the BoMWhile Brant Gardner has written that legends of Quetzalcoatl were possibly contaminated by Spanish priests trying to make the Aztecs look more Christian, there is no Biblical story that matches the above. There was no reason for the Spanish priests who wrote it to believe that Wiraqocha was anything but an Incan god.Is it possible that Joseph Smith could have had access to the writings of Spanish priests? It is possible, but very unlikely. Once again, that library in Palmyra must have been quite impressive in 1829!
t2t2 Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 sigh, that's what we were hoping to get from you t2t2.We've shown lots of evidence, and you dismiss it without any real evidence. You claim that anyone can make up names and have lucky guesses. However, you have yet to show us PROOF of your statement. Let's see you get some statistical data for all the statements made on names alone by LDS.I at least engage in conversations. I don't pop and run (referring to Bertram).You show me opinions of LDS scholors. I show you my opinions in return. Neither are proof of anything. But instead of a blanket dismissal - why not actually debate my specific points? What is the statistical chance of Joseph getting the prefixes and suffixes right for Egyptian AND Hebrew, for names that were not available in his day?If he is simply combining names found in the Bible it's pretty high.We have shown evidence, as in actual names that are authentic.Aha! You talk of proof and yet post this? I've already listed quite a few names that are supposedly Egyptian and shown that if they are - they are merely an LDS apologists' stretch at a matching game. Sam from Saa? or Suma? Nephi is Egyptian because there's a Nephthys (which name seems to mean "Every time the Hebrews came we suffered horribly." - interestingly enough! ) hero story? Can you do better than that? I've probably not read whatever Nibley book you are pulling this idea from (it's been a few years since I devoted much time to this), so if you have something to lay out other than a statement that "_____ is Egyptian because Nibley says it is" I'm more than willing to discuss it. Otherise all I can do is look at the names in question, search through the resources I have (which are not small) and try and duplicate your assertion. So far - no luck. Some are a bit close. This leads me to assume that LDS scholors are taking close approximations and calling them "same". Then readers see that and think that same REALLY IS "same", when it's only "close". And as I said...if you're already using Biblical names as your guide, close says very little me and many others.But like I said - if you can show your work here and show me exactly what the original Egyptian name was/is that matches the BoM name - THEN we can talk. Egyptian names and usage were all the rage in Israel circa 750-600 BC. Hezekiah's royal seal actually has a dung beetle on it, definitely a symbol of Egypt.I'd love some examples. A royal seal is one thing. There's some politics involved there. The name of your son is another. I'm curious what sort of examples one could find for this.
juliann Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 I don't have a copy of Nibley's books...but I've seen him take some pretty wide leaps at times when it comes to names. You can say "Sam" is an Egyptian hero name...but I can say "nah...he just used Sam from Samuel". And I can look and find no such name in my mythology books that I own. Saa and Suma are the closest I can find. Of course, the fact that the name Hebrew name Sam has been found on an artifact dated to 7 BC is irrelevant. Come on... "That doesn't count because I could do the same thing" substitution for research is beyond lame.
t2t2 Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 Of course, the fact that the name Hebrew name Sam has been found on an artifact dated to 7 BC is irrelevantOne line and run. One line and run. Reminds me of a Liz Phair song I know.This is my point. What is the artifact and what does it say? Where is this shown? Wait...I thought Sam was an Egyptian name? Let me ask....does the artifact say "sam" or "shem"?Come on... "That doesn't count because I could do the same thing" substitution for research is beyond lame. *shrug* Lame is as lame does, mamma use to say. I find a LOT of assumptions made by Mormons on this board "lame". But I typically think that because of the giant leaps in logic they make.Take Sam. Let's even suppose the artifact says "Sam". Would not the average American writing a book think that names can and should be shortened on occasion? I would. Lacking knowledge on Hebrew name rules I would have done the same thing in his place. This falls into "it's only proof because there were some dumb critics who once said it was wrong". If someone knew little enough about the Jews to say "The BoM is wrong because the name Samuel is not Hebrew" and *poof* - we realize that YES it is...well....that's just the fault of the critic...not proof of anything positive for the book. There are a lot of instances of this such.Granted...that is IF Sam is on an artifact somewhere.
Marcelo Posted July 25, 2005 Posted July 25, 2005 Let's say I take the position that Joseph Smith was a fraud and that he made up the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price.Now according to church critics, Joseph Smith fabricated all of these works after carefully studying, cover-to-cover, all of the following:- The King James version of the Bible - Ethan Smith's "Views of the Hebrews" - Solomon Spaulding manuscript- The Apocrypha- The works of Flavius Josephus- The complete works of ShakespeareAm I missing any? Now of course there's no direct evidence that Joseph Smith had possesion of every single one of these books, as well as others he would need to fabricate the BoM, D&C and PofGP, prior to 1830, but since only those defending Joseph Smith need to present direct evidence, that's beside the point.Now remember, when the Book of Mormon was first published and distributed, Jospeh Smith was only 24 years old, and had not had the opportunity to attend college or study in either Europe or the Middle East. In fact, he barely had a fourth grade education. (Of course, now church critics are trying to say that's a myth) So how did he do it? How did Joseph Smith gather all these books together, studying them throughly and carefully, and use them to create the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price? And how did he do this while at the same time convincing his wife, his immediate family, and many others such as Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, Orson Pratt, Parley P. Pratt, David Whitmer, Newel K. Whitney, and Willard Richards, just to name a few, that his work was of divine origin? The major difficulty is obvious with the BOM. Only 60 working days (in a fringe of 90 days), 23 years old, newly-married, living in a log-house in Fayatte. No computer, no library around, only sheets of paper, one table, one feather and glasses of ink. No electricity (what would damage his performance during the night), straw desks (what would be very unconfortable), no air-conditioned. I wonder how many of you tried to write in those conditions... Now, according to a site that defends the Spaulding Theory:The other studies in this series have demonstrated that the writings which have been attributed to Joseph Smith were written by someone who had a thorough knowledge of the Bible and Roman history. The author was familiar with such writers as Livy, Caesar, Plutarch, Cicero, Virgil, and Herodotus; he knew the philosophies of Plato, the Atomists, Philo, Descartes, and Rousseau; he not only had an intimate knowledge of the Bible, but also knew Jewish legends and was familiar with the works of Josephus, Eusebius, Augustine, Bede, and Geoffrey of Monmouth; he also knew Irish myths and the legends concerning the Lia Fail and the Holy Grail. In other words, the author had probably received an education in the classics, typical of programs offered in colleges of the day, and he obviously was interested in theories about the origins and history of the American Indians.source:http://www.mormonstudies.com/author1.htm Mahomhad had 23 years to compose the Quran, and a lot of friends to review it, Ellen G. White had Glem Miller at her side, but Joseph had only Oliver Cowdery and Emma Smith. Ah! Don
RichardMdBorn Posted July 26, 2005 Posted July 26, 2005 1973 I would have to agree with that this is true. My question would be, do the critics of the above churches continually write books, put up websites and hand out flyers portraying people like Ellen White and Mary Baker Eddy as savages and blood thirsty tyrants, much in the way Joseph Smith is often portrayed by Mormon Church critics like Ed Decker, Jerald and Sandra Tanner and Fawn Frodie? Richard I don't think that they strove for both political and religious power the way both JS and BY did. Nor did they have the questionable conduct with women that JS's teachings about polygamy brought forth. William Miller was a contemporary of JS and developed a large following. He faced a large amount of opposition, including having rocks thrown at him. However, he did not seek political power and didn't teach polygamy privately while publicly teaching against it.1973
juliann Posted July 26, 2005 Posted July 26, 2005 This is my point. What is the artifact and what does it say? Where is this shown? Wait...I thought Sam was an Egyptian name? Let me ask....does the artifact say "sam" or "shem"? And that is my point. You are going on and on without even bothering to find out. Why would it be in my best interest to educate you as you dig that hole ever deeper. BTW..."Samuel" is Sam plus the suffix "el". You do know about that, right?
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