What books did Joseph Smith have access to?

[Hemidakota]

Mine was that I stopped wasting my life away on my knees waiting for an anwer. But it IS interesting to go back and analyze things from the other side, as we do now.

That funny, I get answer when I am on my knees than not. Hmm.....something is wrong here.

[t2t2]

That funny, I get answer when I am on my knees than not. Hmm.....something is wrong here.

After 32 years of hearing nothing that way I've learned to listen to God in others. I don't think someone can want to know more than I did, especially while I was on my mission, that the BoM is true.

The problem was that I realized the path itself was circular.

1. X is how you learn truth (Y)

2. How do I know that you are correct?

3. You follow X.

4. But how do I even know that YOU are correct, let alone X?

5. Because Y is correct.

6. How do I know that?

7. Follow X.

If you are given a book on chemistry it might say at the beginning "Here is an experiement. When you combine these 2 chemicals you will see blue bubbles. That way you will know that what we teach is correct because you will see that the experiment produces exactly what we say it will."

OK. So I do the experiment and nothing happens. Hmm...maybe I added things in the wrong order. Try again. Nothing. Hmmm. Maybe it was too cold in the room. Try again. Nothing. Maybe, I added too much of one of the chemicals. OK...this time it turned baby blue...but no bubbles. What am I doing wrong?

Chemist #1. There WERE bubbles. You just didn't look hard enough.

Chemist #2. You didn't do it right. Are you SURE you read everything correctly? Because I got TONS of blue bubbles.

Chemist #3. You're wanting more than what it gives. It's not really blue bubbles, it's more like a soft foam on the top. You might barely see it...but it's there.

Hmm...but I can get that same foam from a LOT of experiments. What should that prove to me if I can get that any number of ways?

People can scof all they want about giving up on the experiement. You do it often enough you, everyone, will eventually loose faith that such truly IS the way to know what God wants. Once you cross that barrier you begin to see him all over the place....not just (or at all) in the places you were told to find Him.

[HiJolly]

Mine was that I stopped wasting my life away on my knees waiting for an anwer.  But it IS interesting to go back and analyze things from the other side, as we do now.

That funny, I get answer when I am on my knees than not. Hmm.....something is wrong here.

No, something is *different* here. Not wrong.

I don't get answers while on my knees, either. I get them while dreaming, or while riding my bike, or (insert any number of odd places where I recieved revelation).

My dad got a full-blown vision while waiting for a red light to turn green, on his commute home from work.

different, not wrong.

HiJolly

[juliann]

If you are given a book on chemistry it might say at the beginning "Here is an experiement. When you combine these 2 chemicals you will see blue bubbles. That way you will know that what we teach is correct because you will see that the experiment produces exactly what we say it will."

If you look at spirituality like chemistry you won't get very far.

[Hemidakota]

T2T2 - After 32 years of hearing nothing that way I've learned to listen to God in others.  I don't think someone can want to know more than I did, especially while I was on my mission, that the BoM is true. 

The problem was that I realized the path itself was circular.

1.  X is how you learn truth (Y)

2.  How do I know that you are correct?

3.  You follow X.

4.  But how do I even know that YOU are correct, let alone X?

5.  Because Y is correct.

6.  How do I know that?

7.  Follow X.

Interesting analogy. Without delving into your personal life, I am at a last of finding why you never, ever, received an answer. Being on a mission, you should have received an answer in away that it was recognizable by you.

As engineer, I always looking for patterns, solutions, and diagramming different models to search for answers. As a convert, I just applied what Joseph Smith and Moroni stated in Chapter 10 (Book of Moroni) for three months solid. I even changed my life habits to conform to what the Savior was depicting in the New Testament, ensuring that I was attuned to the Holy Spirit. After that time, I finally received an irrefutable answer. Since then, I had repeated the same process over and over again with great success. Though, we are never perfect and fall trap in our pompous attitude, but the swinging pendulum swings in the repentance side again.

I do know, using Brother of Jared as an example, when he failed to pray and give thanks or even provide an solution to a problem what he thought was appropriate, he was rebutted by the Savior. I have in the past ended up like that and answers were not coming. I am in that state again over the Garden of Eden issues. Answers are not given until I have fulfilled my part before asking the appropriate question.

I have noticed over time that humility and sincerity in prayer, backed by daily repentance style living, answers come quickly. Some like Joseph Smith, some like Paul, and some just pure Holy Ghost. None of these could be explained in any mortal terms unless you had experience them. Though, I am firm believer of devoting ten percent of our day to spiritual objects.

People can scof all they want about giving up on the experiement.  You do it often enough you, everyone, will eventually loose faith that such truly IS the way to know what God wants.  Once you cross that barrier you begin to see him all over the place....not just (or at all) in the places you were told to find Him.

I am not scoffing

[Hemidakota]

Mine was that I stopped wasting my life away on my knees waiting for an anwer.

[t2t2]

If you look at spirituality like chemistry you won't get very far.

If you criticize an honest and sincere approach to learning truth - neither will you.

[t2t2]

Interesting analogy. Without delving into your personal life, I am at a last of finding why you never, ever, received an answer. Being on a mission, you should have received an answer in away that it was recognizable by you.

Who knows? At the time I blamed pride, doubt, whatever I could. I still firmly believed I would eventually receive an answer....it just hadn't happened yet for me. But one can only go so many years believing that until one looks elsewhere.

Now I believe I received no answer because I was asking for something to be true that was not. I'm sure if each of you prayed to know that the Catholic church is true and received nothing...that would be your conclusion as well. You have to see it in that light.

Of course - and back to topic - once you HAVE your answer (even if that answer is as an absense of) you will see everything in a new light. This is why we can both look at the same name, Asa, and you will see a miracle and evidence for the BoM, I will see Joseph changing one letter in a Biblical name to make a new one.

[thesometimesaint]

t2t2:

"This is why we can both look at the same name, Asa, and you will see a miracle and evidence for the BoM, I will see Joseph changing one letter in a Biblical name to make a new one."

That's the thing that I think you are overlooking. IF JS changed just one letter it would have to agree with ancient Hebrew, a language structure he did not know. JS then would have to do this repeatedly throughout The Book of Mormon. With various names, and within various contexts. One or two could be a luckey guess. Much more, then something else is at work.

[Meta]

t2t2:

"This is why we can both look at the same name, Asa, and you will see a miracle and evidence for the BoM, I will see Joseph changing one letter in a Biblical name to make a new one."

That's the thing that I think you are overlooking. IF JS changed just one letter it would have to agree with ancient Hebrew, a language structure he did not know. JS then would have to do this repeatedly throughout The Book of Mormon. With various names, and within various contexts. One or two could be a luckey guess. Much more, then something else is at work.

Precisely.

An awesome read on names:

http://www.comevisit.com/lds/bom-evid.htm#xii

and

http://www.lightplanet.com/response/names.htm

I don't remember where I read this, but wasn't there a statistic for the amount of names gotten right in the BoM? Something like 50million to 1 of getting every name correct...

[t2t2]

One or two could be a luckey guess. Much more, then something else is at work.

Like I said...if we were talking 20 made up names matching real names he could not have know all in 1 language, I might agree. Instead you are giving Joseph quite a number of languages in which to be right. The target is too big.

It's pretty amazing to watch a basketball player repeatedly throw a ball into such a tiny little hoop from that far out NBA 3 point line. I'm a decent ball player. I know how tough it is to hit from the key, let alone an NBA 3 with a 7 footer throwing a hand in your face. We SHOULD be in awe.

But what if the hoop were 4 feet across? Still in awe? mmmm....not so much. That's my point with BoM evidence. You're talking about 2 continents in which to find hard artifacts...and you can't. You've got quite a number of languages in which to match names. Some do. Some are merely close. Others match nothing at all. Someone poo poo'd using Korean as an example so I will take that and use it again in the negative. Were Joseph writing this book about anciant Korea, something he had zero guides from which to pull, and he got a bunch of names right I would be impressed. But a bunch of names that all sound like Bible names? Nah. Not impressed.

[t2t2]

I don't remember where I read this, but wasn't there a statistic for the amount of names gotten right in the BoM? Something like 50million to 1 of getting every name correct...

That's hilarious AND, I'm sure, another Mormon myth. How in the world could you come up with a figure like that unless you throw out all he got wrong and toss out the fact that he had the Bible as a guide.

Maybe if you said "what are the odds of getting 30 out of 30 names right from a language you had ZERO knowledge of or example names from which to pull?" - sure...I'm no statistician....but that might get you closer.

[Meta]

One or two could be a luckey guess. Much more, then something else is at work.

Like I said...if we were talking 20 made up names matching real names he could not have know all in 1 language, I might agree. Instead you are giving Joseph quite a number of languages in which to be right. The target is too big.

It's pretty amazing to watch a basketball player repeatedly throw a ball into such a tiny little hoop from that far out NBA 3 point line. I'm a decent ball player. I know how tough it is to hit from the key, let alone an NBA 3 with a 7 footer throwing a hand in your face. We SHOULD be in awe.

But what if the hoop were 4 feet across? Still in awe? mmmm....not so much. That's my point with BoM evidence. You're talking about 2 continents in which to find hard artifacts...and you can't. You've got quite a number of languages in which to match names. Some do. Some are merely close. Others match nothing at all. Someone poo poo'd using Korean as an example so I will take that and use it again in the negative. Were Joseph writing this book about anciant Korea, something he had zero guides from which to pull, and he got a bunch of names right I would be impressed. But a bunch of names that all sound like Bible names? Nah. Not impressed.

I think you are understating the BoM names quite extensively. I could see your point (possibly) with the BoM lending some names from the bible, but the BoM names actually resemble meaning.

http://www.comevisit.com/lds/bom-evid.htm#xii

Strange Names

The stamp of Egypt on Lehi's people may be clearly discerned in the names those people and their descendants. Hebrew and Egyptian names together make up the overwhelming majority and occur in about equal strength, which is exactly what one would expect from Mormon's claim that both languages were used among them (and which would certainly not be the case were Hebrew the only spoken language), but Hittite, Arabic, and Ionian elements are not missing. First, consider a few Egyptian names, setting off the Book of Mormon names (BM) against their Old World equivalents (OW).

Aha (BM), son of the Nephite commander in chief.

Aha (OW), a name of the first Pharaoh; it means "warrior" and is a common word.

Aminadab (BM), Nephite missionary in the time of the judges.

Amanathabi (OW), chief of a Canaanite city under Egyptian domination. This name is "reformed" Egyptian.

Ammon (BM), the commonest name in the Book of Mormon.

Ammon (Amon, Amun) (OW), the commonest name in the Egyptian Empire: the great universal God of the Empire.

Ammoni-hah (BM), name of a country and city.

Ammuni-ra (OW), prince of Beyrut under Egyptian rule. The above might stand the same relationship to this name as

Cameni-hah (BM), a Nephite general

Khamuni-ra (OW), Amarna personal name, perhaps equivalent of Ammuni-ra.

Cezoram (BM), Nephite chief judge.

Chiziri (OW), Egyptian governor of a Syrian city.

Giddonah (BM), a) high priest who judged Korihor, father of Amulek.

Dji-dw-na (OW), the Egyptian name for Sidon.

Gidgiddoni and Gidgiddonah (BM), Nephite generals.

Djed-djhwt-iw-f and Djed-djhwti-iw-s plus ankh (OW), Egyptian proper name meaning "Thoth hath said: he shall live," and "Thoth hath said: she shall live," respectively. On this pattern the two Nephite names mean "Thoth hath said I shall live," and "Thoth hath said: we shall live," respectively.

Giddianhi (BM), robber chief and general.

Djhwti-ankhi (OW), "Thoth is my life"; see above.

Gimgim-no (BM), city of Gimgim, compare Biblical No-Amon, "City of Amon."

Kenkeme (OW), Egyptian city, cf. Kipkip, seat of the Egyptian dynasty in Nubia.

Hem (BM), brother of the earlier Ammon.

Hem (OW), means "servant," specifically of Ammon, as in the title Hem tp n 'Imn, "chief servant of Ammon" held by the high priest of Thebes.

Helaman (BM), great Nephite prophet.

Her-amon (OW), "in the presence of Amon," as in the Egyptian proper name Heri-i-her-imn. Semitic "l" is always written "r" in Egyptian, which has no "l." Conversely, e Egyptian "r" is often written "l" in Semitic languages.

Himni (BM), a son of King Mosiah.

Hmn (OW), a name of the Egyptian hawk-god, symbol of the emperor.

Korihor (BM), a political agitator who was seized by the people of Ammon.

Kherihor (also written Khurhor, etc.) (OW), great high priest of Ammon who seized the throne of Egypt at Thebes, cir. 1085 b.c.

Manti (BM), the name of a Nephite soldier, a land, a city, and a hill.

Manti (OW), Semitic form of an Egyptian proper name, e.g., Manti-mankhi, prince in Upper Egypt cir. 650 b.c. It is a late form of Month, god of Hermonthis.

Mathoni (BM), a Nephite disciple.

Maitena, Mattenos, etc. (OW), two judges of Tyre, who at different times made themselves king, possibly under the Egyptian auspices.

Morianton (BM), the name of a Nephite city and its founder, cf. the Nephite province Moriantum.

Meriaton and Meriamon (OW), names of Egyptian princes, "Beloved of Aton" and "Beloved of Amon" respectively.

Nephi (BM), founder of the Nephite nation.

Nehi, Nehri (OW), famous Egyptian noblemen. Nfy was the name of an Egyptian captain. Since BM insists on "ph," Nephi is closer to Nihpi, original name of the god Pa-nepi, which may even have been Nephi.

Paanchi (BM), son of Pahoran, Sr., and pretender to the chief-judgeship.

Paanchi (OW), son of Kherihor, a) chief high priest of Amon, ruler of the south who conquered all of Egypt and was high priest of Amon at Thebes.

Pahoran (BM), a) great chief judge, son of the same.

Pa-her-an (OW), ambassador of Egypt in Palestine, where his name has the "Reformed" reading Pahura; in Egyptian as Pa-her-y it means "the Syrian" or Asiatic.

Pacumeni (BM), son of Pahoran.

Pakamen (OW), Egyptian proper name meaning "blind man"; also Pamenches (Gk. Pachomios), commander of the south and high priest of Horus.

Pachus (BM), revolutionary leader and usurper of the throne.

Pa-ks and Pach-qs (OW), Egyptian proper name. Compare Pa-ches-i, "he is praised."

Sam (BM), brother of Nephi.

Sam Tawi (OW), Egyptian "uniter of the lands," title taken by the brother of Nehri upon mounting the throne.

Seezor-am and Zeezr-om (BM), a depraved judge, and a lawyer, resp., the latter also the name of a city.

Zoser, Zeser, etc. (OW), Third Dynasty ruler, one of the greatest Pharaohs.

Zemna-ri-hah (BM), robber chief.

Zmn-ha-re (OW), Egyptian proper name: the same elements as the above in different order--a common Egyptian practice.

Zeniff (BM), ruler of Nephite colony.

Znb, Snb (OW), very common elements in Egyptian proper names, cf. Senep-ta.

Zenoch (BM), according to various Nephite writers, an ancient Hebrew prophet.

Zenekh (OW), Egyptian proper name; once a serpent-god.

[Meta]

I don't remember where I read this, but wasn't there a statistic for the amount of names gotten right in the BoM? Something like 50million to 1 of getting every name correct...

That's hilarious AND, I'm sure, another Mormon myth. How in the world could you come up with a figure like that unless you throw out all he got wrong and toss out the fact that he had the Bible as a guide.

Maybe if you said "what are the odds of getting 30 out of 30 names right from a language you had ZERO knowledge of or example names from which to pull?" - sure...I'm no statistician....but that might get you closer.

Again, I think you are understating the BoM and its authenticy. I'd even go so far as to say that you're naive to the critics pleas against it.

[Bertram]

t2t2,

As a very "articulate" person could you please list all or any books, reviews, articles which you have had published.

[t2t2]

As a very "articulate" person could you please list all or any books, reviews, articles which you have had published.

Um...none. Is this a trick question? Other than a CD, which was published under my own record label, I have nothing out there. Why?

----

Meta

I really wish people would go back and read the whole thread before bringing something to the table which has been thoroughly discussed and calling someone naive.

But....let me take a couple of names here to examine.

Aha? This has been discussed at length. Too many names 1 letter off in the Bible to think this is a great stretch to come up with.

Ammon. Are you kidding me? I should stop here because it's obvious you've never read the...um......BIBLE?! Does anyone else here think using a Biblical name in the BoM is evidence that Joseph was a prophet? I'm frankly astonished that you would list this. Ammon? That's like saying "Joseph could not have known Jacob was a real name!!".

Aminadab. *sigh*. Another Biblical name is proof to you? I'M naive???

Etc.

Sorry dude...the rest has been discussed. You can see my remarks all through this thread. If you want to take the time and look up something I said that you want to challege - great. I'm more than happy to reply back to that.

[juliann]

If you look at spirituality like chemistry you won't get very far.

If you criticize an honest and sincere approach to learning truth - neither will you.

So you think there is a TRUTH out there to be "learned"? How in the world would you ever know you reached it? T2...you have some awfully fundamentalistic ideas. Life is experience and we experience through our senses. Yes, that dirty word "feelings". There is not much you can do about that as a mortal and appeals to "chemistry" as a substitute won't help.

[suem]

juliann

So you think there is a TRUTH out there to be "learned"?  How in the world would you ever know you reached it?  T2...you have some awfully fundamentalistic ideas.  Life is experience and we experience through our senses.   Yes, that dirty word "feelings".  There is not much you can do about that as a mortal and appeals to "chemistry" as a substitute won't help.

One cannot learn truth?

Your statement confuses me. I thought that people go to school to learn stuff, is the stuff they are learning just false stuff?

Please clarify, if possible.

[t2t2]

So you think there is a TRUTH out there to be "learned"? How in the world would you ever know you reached it? T2...you have some awfully fundamentalistic ideas. Life is experience and we experience through our senses. Yes, that dirty word "feelings". There is not much you can do about that as a mortal and appeals to "chemistry" as a substitute won't help.

I get the feeling that you don't have time to read much of what people write.

When have I ever said my feelings are less important to me than my head?

As for truth; how would I know when I've learned it? The same way anyone does. When that truth is used and proven in life itself it becomes apparent that it is good...of value...."true".

Granted, truth, as examined (which we all do) is relative to our individual lives. Truth to you might mean you see the wonderful affects the WoW has provided for your body. Truth to me might mean the wonderful time my wife and I had out by the pool the other night with a bottle of champagne (which I drank...she just had a sip - she's pregnant). Then we can flip it to say that while the WoW may have helped you...odds are you would be no worse off physically if you drank a glass of wine each night with dinner. You could say I could have had just a wonderful evening without the champagne. All true. Truth.

Or are you talking truth of the eternal nature? Such as the nature of God? How do I know what/who/how/where God is? I don't. But neither do you. You believe. I also believe certain things.

If your point is other than the above, please explain.

[juliann]

Your statement confuses me. I thought that people go to school to learn stuff, is the stuff they are learning just false stuff?

Please clarify, if possible.

Shouldn't you be examining your worldview...like real fast...if you have only two destinations for knowledge..."true" or "false"? Talking about cosmic TRUTH is little more than a rhetorical device that is supposed to end an argument if you claim to have found "it". Since when has there been a big lump of TRUTH that is up for grabs? Is science TRUTH? No. One look at history makes that a ridiculous assumption. Is history TRUTH? No. Look at the thousands of books on one event that come to different conclusions. So what is this TRUTH that you can flag everyone down with? As a Mormon, I believe truth is an internal experience with the Holy Spirit that cannot be transferred. But even that does not mean that I will translate that experience exactly as someone else would because we do not all have the same sensory perceptions. Again, one of the things that attracts me to watch message boards is the group of people who have left a religion and think that somehow they have magically dispensed with the way in which they approach the world. And the world is moving on and they don't see it any better than they did while claiming membership in a religion.

Mankind is at a turning point, the beginning of a new rationality in which science is no longer identified with certitude and probability with ignorance. 

.............

On the other hand, certainty has long been associated with a denial of time and creativity. 

Ilya Prigogine, The End of Certainty: Time, Chaos, and the New Laws of Nature (New York: The Free Press, 1997), 7, 184.

[t2t2]

Again, one of the things that attracts me to watch message boards is the group of people who have left a religion and think that somehow they have magically dispensed with the way in which they approach the world. And the world is moving on and they don't see it any better than they did while claiming membership in a religion.

Since you're bringing that up here and now...who here do you think fits this stereotype?

One of the things that attracts ME to this board is watching people who would call someone a fundamentalist simply because they think they CAN learn truth (which would include just about Mormon on this board as well as myself) - and yet feel that truth which they have found is of greater worth than that which another has found. Don't pretend you don't think that. If you did not there's little point being a Mormon, now is there? Pretty tough supporting missionary work unless you think that which your religion offers (call it truth, call it a lifestyle, call it 3 or more hours a week) is of greater worth than other religions which also offer all of the above (or no religion at all).

[Hemidakota]

So you think there is a TRUTH out there to be "learned"? How in the world would you ever know you reached it? T2...you have some awfully fundamentalistic ideas. Life is experience and we experience through our senses. Yes, that dirty word "feelings". There is not much you can do about that as a mortal and appeals to "chemistry" as a substitute won't help.

I get the feeling that you don't have time to read much of what people write.

When have I ever said my feelings are less important to me than my head?

As for truth; how would I know when I've learned it? The same way anyone does. When that truth is used and proven in life itself it becomes apparent that it is good...of value...."true".

Granted, truth, as examined (which we all do) is relative to our individual lives. Truth to you might mean you see the wonderful affects the WoW has provided for your body. Truth to me might mean the wonderful time my wife and I had out by the pool the other night with a bottle of champagne (which I drank...she just had a sip - she's pregnant). Then we can flip it to say that while the WoW may have helped you...odds are you would be no worse off physically if you drank a glass of wine each night with dinner. You could say I could have had just a wonderful evening without the champagne. All true. Truth.

Or are you talking truth of the eternal nature? Such as the nature of God? How do I know what/who/how/where God is? I don't. But neither do you. You believe. I also believe certain things.

If your point is other than the above, please explain.

Mysteries of heaven can be seen if you apply the same approach that Mormon wrote about the sealed portion of the plates:

And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.

Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.(3 Nephi 26:8-11.)

[Hemidakota]

So you think there is a TRUTH out there to be "learned"? How in the world would you ever know you reached it? T2...you have some awfully fundamentalistic ideas. Life is experience and we experience through our senses. Yes, that dirty word "feelings". There is not much you can do about that as a mortal and appeals to "chemistry" as a substitute won't help.

I get the feeling that you don't have time to read much of what people write.

When have I ever said my feelings are less important to me than my head?

As for truth; how would I know when I've learned it? The same way anyone does. When that truth is used and proven in life itself it becomes apparent that it is good...of value...."true".

Granted, truth, as examined (which we all do) is relative to our individual lives. Truth to you might mean you see the wonderful affects the WoW has provided for your body. Truth to me might mean the wonderful time my wife and I had out by the pool the other night with a bottle of champagne (which I drank...she just had a sip - she's pregnant). Then we can flip it to say that while the WoW may have helped you...odds are you would be no worse off physically if you drank a glass of wine each night with dinner. You could say I could have had just a wonderful evening without the champagne. All true. Truth.

Or are you talking truth of the eternal nature? Such as the nature of God? How do I know what/who/how/where God is? I don't. But neither do you. You believe. I also believe certain things.

If your point is other than the above, please explain.

Mysteries of heaven can be seen if you apply the same approach that Mormon wrote about the sealed portion of the plates:

And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.

Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.(3 Nephi 26:8-11.)

[juliann]

As for truth; how would I know when I've learned it? The same way anyone does. When that truth is used and proven in life itself it becomes apparent that it is good...of value...."true".

I am guilty. I would never leave the computer if I didnt' speed read and skip a lot. I also have a habit of getting ideas from someone's words and then going off on some thoughts that really have nothing to do with the person who wrote the post I appear to be responding to. But I stuck a disclaimer when I did that to you a few minutes ago.

As for truth; how would I know when I've learned it?  The same way anyone does.  When that truth is used and proven in life itself it becomes apparent that it is good...of value...."true".

As you can see, we are in quicksand with definitions. It happens with prophet and with truth. I think a more common definition would be one that associates truth with reality or fact...but those things are up for grabs now, too. Truth always gets caught up with certainty. For me, truth generally comes in small pieces and it is up to the individual to make something of those pieces...which is why we don't all come to the same conclusions.

Truth to you might mean you see the wonderful affects the WoW has provided for your body.  Truth to me might mean the wonderful time my wife and I had out by the pool the other night with a bottle of champagne

I don't think the "WOW" is TRUTH. I think it is wisdom. If it was truth there would be no room for medicinal use of alcohol, for instance. I wouldn't drink champagne because I think the taste of alcohol is disgusting. When we went to Paris for our honeymoon, the hotel left a bottle of champagne. I took one taste, dumped it in the tub and had a champagne bath. But I just call this kind of stuff fun.

Or are you talking truth of the eternal nature?  Such as the nature of God?  How do I know what/who/how/where God is?  I don't.  But neither do you.  You believe. I also believe certain things.

Again, my experience is a maze of things that must be sorted out and organized. My husband died of cancer. I had experiences that crossed the boundaries of belief. I had the time for trial and error. Now how I sort out those experiences depends on my other life experiences and learning. But there are some basic things that I know . Shifting the frame I put those things in does not negate what is in the frame. That is why I hang onto the church (and yes...I see the same problems) with everything I have...because, getting back to your original thought...it has value. It is good. But it is not the "church" that is TRUE. It is those experiences and those experiences are based on the gospel that the church, imperfect as it may be, shelters.

[juliann]

Since you're bringing that up here and now...who here do you think fits this stereotype?

Ah, don't make me say it again. I think you are reasonable. If I start with the names the hounds of hell descend upon me.

and yet feel that truth which they have found is of greater worth than that which another has found.

Nope...I think I have pieces. I think you have pieces. And of course I think my way is better than your way or I'd be you.

Pretty tough supporting missionary work unless you think that which your religion offers (call it truth, call it a lifestyle, call it 3 or more hours a week) is of greater worth than other religions which also offer all of the above (or no religion at all).

I think there is a lot we can learn from other religions. I think anyone who follows Christ is ahead of the game no matter what religion they are. I think any religion that provides that belief (minus the hate that some insert) is a boon. Pres. Hinckley described our purpose as being an "ensign to the nations". There are some who find joy and rewards in doing that work. But the bottom line of being Mormon is being a good person. You can't get around that. We value behavior over all else because that is how we interpret being a follower of Christ. I do think those who fight against that with hate like we see on the exie board I won't name have some serious problems because they are fighting good with mockery, spite and vengence.