What books did Joseph Smith have access to?

[Darth_Bill]

>In addition the person said that the one person who had the most influence on this decision to leave the church was none other than juliann. So I have been watching juliann over the past couple of weeks, and by golly, I can see exactly what that person's point was.

Funny, 'cause she is one of those people I want to hang with. Same with Ben McGuire, Brant, and a few others on the board. I find them extremely interesting and only frustrating to people with certain agendas. I don't have the time to do all the learnin' they did so all I can do is just sit at their feet and hope some of it rubs off.

I spend a good deal of time on another board with some very knowledgable EOC and RCC members. While I don't agree with them on a whole lot of issues, their education and knowledge are very "attractive" to me. I'd much rather hang out with smart people hoping I'll learn something than many on this board. These guys are the only reason I hang out here anyway.

[t2t2]

Because you've read egyptian names, you suddenly have a feel for ALL egyptian names...and then you try to use a parallel with you being able to play beatles songs?!

*sigh*...does NO one read any more? When have I said I have ANY feel for Egyptian names? I haven't been this misunderstood since I was potty training my puppies 3 years ago.

Again - this has NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER THEY ARE OR ARE NOT EGYPTIAN NAMES. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY KNOWLEDGE, OR LACK THEREOF OF EGYPTIAN IN GENERAL. THIS IS ABOUT WHETHER THE NAMES ARE 1 LETTER OFF NAMES WE KNOW JOSEPH HAD IN FRONT OF HIM.

Must I remind you that the book of mormon was written in reformed hieroglyphics? So in a sense, I guess, you're metaphor makes sense in that the language was close to the original, but not exactly. If you read the website I gave you, you'll find instances where the names relate to egyptian names-- not exact names, but close.

I give up.

Go back to my analogy. If I write songs that are exact ripoffs of Beales songs - will it matter whether or not these songs are ALSO both possibly ancient Celtic tunes? NO - it won't. Nor will knowledge of Gaelic help us in any way. The only question is whether or not it is obvious that I took my ideas from the Beatles.

[Meta]

Because you've read egyptian names, you suddenly have a feel for ALL egyptian names...and then you try to use a parallel with you being able to play beatles songs?!

*sigh*...does NO one read any more? When have I said I have ANY feel for Egyptian names? I haven't been this misunderstood since I was potty training my puppies 3 years ago.

Again - this has NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER THEY ARE OR ARE NOT EGYPTIAN NAMES. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY KNOWLEDGE, OR LACK THEREOF OF EGYPTIAN IN GENERAL. THIS IS ABOUT WHETHER THE NAMES ARE 1 LETTER OFF NAMES WE KNOW JOSEPH HAD IN FRONT OF HIM.

Must I remind you that the book of mormon was written in reformed hieroglyphics? So in a sense, I guess, you're metaphor makes sense in that the language was close to the original, but not exactly. If you read the website I gave you, you'll find instances where the names relate to egyptian names-- not exact names, but close.

I give up.

Go back to my analogy. If I write songs that are exact ripoffs of Beales songs - will it matter whether or not these songs are ALSO both possibly ancient Celtic tunes? NO - it won't. Nor will knowledge of Gaelic help us in any way. The only question is whether or not it is obvious that I took my ideas from the Beatles.

Such a bitter person are you.

What I think you're missing is that these people were descedants of egyptians. Wouldn't there culture, lifestyle and names be carried with them? Not to mention they had grabbed the ancient records from laban which contained ancient egyptian names? In the millennia from when Nephi left the middle east I would guess that many names and languages would evolve as well.

As for the notion that none of us are as intelligent as you, did you ever stop to think that you don't explain your metaphors well enough to be understood? You leave big chunks of information out and it's can be quite confusing.

[t2t2]

Such a bitter person are you.

Why would you say that? I can't think of a single person who knows me that would use that word to describe me. Exhausted by the misunderstandings on this thread (possibly on both sides)? Sure.

As for the notion that none of us are as intelligent as you, did you ever stop to think that you don't explain your metaphors well enough to be understood? You leave big chunks of information out and it's can be quite confusing.

When did I say I was more intelligent than anyone else on this board? More evidence that no ones actually reads my posts.

Not to mention they had grabbed the ancient records from laban which contained ancient egyptian names? In the millennia from when Nephi left the middle east I would guess that many names and languages would evolve as well.

I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone. Are you saying that you still think I'm challenging you that these names could or do match up with Egyptian names? Do you think I'm disagreeing with you on that?

[charity]

Suem, You are absolutely right that no one knows another's heart. But to say one person is responsible for the destruction of another's testimony is a serious charge.

People who ask questions have a responsibility to look for the answer. It seems to me that many of the questions asked on this board are not sincere quests for truth. I may be wrong, but when questions are asked, and reasoned answers are blown off and ridiculed, I do tend to make a judgement about what is in that "questioner's" heart. And when reasoned answers are repeatedly disrespected, I can see how frustrating it is for a person who has been suckered into giving an honest answer to a dishonest question.

[Meta]

Why would you say that?

Are WE speaking in English? I'm starting to doubt it.

...

A child could see that it is. I think the minimum IQ required to see this is somewhere just north of a monkey who's learned 4 signs and gets 3 of them wrong on occasion.

...

*sigh*...does NO one read any more?

----

That's why I would say that. You're clearly upset..nobody else is yelling or pulling their hair out.

Anyway, I think I'm finally understanding where you are coming from. But I still think you are underestimating the ability to come up with names, regardless of how much one studies the scriptures. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the topic, although I think its naive. In my opinion, it would be like trying to throw a dart into a 2" bullseye from atop the sears tower. Possible, but very, very unlikely.

[t2t2]

That's why I would say that. You're clearly upset..nobody else is yelling or pulling their hair out.

Why would you equate a sigh with pulling my hair out? I've used the word "sigh" and "exhausting". And you think that equals being upset? I AGAIN assert that you do not read my posts very well. How long will this continue? Only you can decide.

But I still think you are underestimating the ability to come up with names, regardless of how much one studies the scriptures.

Ahhh...finally! Yes - you are seeing the light.

No - I don't agree, but we're on the same page at least. I think you are overestimating Joseph. That's where we stand.

I think its naive. In my opinion, it would be like trying to throw a dart into a 2" bullseye from atop the sears tower. Possible, but very, very unlikely.

I too think it's like throwing dats into the air. Where we don't see eye to eye is that I think Joseph threw the darts and you all came in later, painted in targets where they landed and proclaimed him prophet. This is why I've said before - if you were searching for targets in one language it would be more impressive. But when you give yourself several I'm not surprised at all that names match up. Especially when every single one can be shown to have at least pieces matching up with Biblical names. We merely disagree on how easy this would be to do.

[suem]

Suem, You are absolutely right that no one knows another's heart. But to say one person is responsible for the destruction of another's testimony is a serious charge.

People who ask questions have a responsibility to look for the answer. It seems to me that many of the questions asked on this board are not sincere quests for truth.

[Nisfor]

Such a bitter person are you.

I don't think he's bitter... It's more like exasperated from banging his head against the wall.

As for the notion that none of us are as intelligent as you, did you ever stop to think that you don't explain your metaphors well enough to be understood? You leave big chunks of information out and it's can be quite confusing.

He's not the one claiming that he's "more intelligent" - he's the one arguing against the people claiming that they are "more intelligent" because they know Egyptian history and that this means that their claims that BoM names are "real Egyptian names" are somehow unaffected by the problems that he's brought up.

What "big chunks of information" do you think that he's leaving out? What can't you understand?

Again - it doesn't matter if someone can find real Egyptain names that match closely to names in the Book of Mormon. One could also probably find real Korean names that are a "close match" to Book of Mormon names. Does this mean that the Book of Mormon was really about ancient people descended from Koreans? No.

To support the idea that Joseph Smith made it all up he is arguing that many of the names are close to names that also occur in the Bible. If a name is basically a name from the Bible with one letter changed, but also coincidentally matches up with an Egyptian word, this doesn't prove that anything.

For example, let's say I wanted to make up names based on bible names. Can I find parallels in other languages. Let's see - I take a name from the Bible - "Adam" and change it to "Adom". Google - "ADOM: Akan of Ghana name meaning "help from God" or "God's blessing." Does this mean that I know how to speak Akan? Or know anything about Ghana? I take "Luke" and change it to "Lupe". Google - "LUPE: shortening of the name GUADALUPE" Does this mean that I know Spanish?

[t2t2]

Exactly. I guess the reason this is so interesting to me is that I can't count the number of times I've heard recently "Yeah -well...I've never seen a good answer for these Egyptian names!". Here's your answer. It's pretty simple.

Again - this is about degree of plausibility. Since one can find these names to be Egyptian we can allow for a Mormon to say the book was possible (at least in this regards). But from there each side will strive to answer the probablity question.

[Dunamis]

Do not turn a thread into a city council meeting about another poster. We don't care to hear about how worthy you think anyone is to post. If you can't support your opinion without resorting to ad hominem then perhaps you should accept the possiblity that your opinion is not supportable.

Thread closed.