What books did Joseph Smith have access to?

[Laban the Younger]

But how long can one continue to "kick against the pricks?"

Whoa, I would never call the apologists "pricks." That would be an ad hominen attack.

[Laban the Younger]

Critics spend tons of time on this board attacking the LDS Church but refuse to take up the apparently very simple task of writing another Book of Mormon, complete with linguistic, cultural and archaeological details which could not have been known to the "translator" of the original work.

We don't need to write it because it has already been done. Go to a library, you will find tons of texts about ancient Tibet or any number of cultures. Some of these texts will be well written, and researched, and support what archeologists know of tibet. The library also has texts similar to the Book of Mormon, written by amateurs, poorly researched, poorly written, and not accurately describing the history and culture of the people it claims to be about. However, even these poorly written, amateur texts correctly identify a few features of the culture they are describing.

And if you want to read another book about the Nephites and Lamanites, which more accurately describes ancient Native Americans, read from the lost plates of Zelph the White Lamanite here - The Book of Zelph. Did Josh Anderson successfully meet Nibley's challenge?

[1973betRP&Glendale]

So it's common sense to think that after the first generation all but 1 or 2, maybe, would be speaking ONLY Hebrew. So where does Korihor come from? Paanchi? You think Nephi and his brothers taught Egyptian mythology to their kids? That Isrealites would do this??? How does this name make its way all the way until it comes out in Korihor?

If you read the Book of Ether contained in the BofM, which gives a very brief history of the Jaredite people, you will see that Korihor was a Jaredite name that later appeared among the Nephites and Lamanites. There were other Jaredite names like Jarom, Amaron and Zeniff that also later appeared among the Nephites and Lamanites. So it could be that Jaredites intermixed with the Nephites and Lamanites.

Now of course, someone will say, "But I thought ALL the Jaredites were destroyed in Ether Chapter 15 (except two)." That was of course the observation of the author of Ether 15. But remember that the Jaredite colonies existed for hundreds of years, so it's very possible that many splinter groups fell away from the main Jaredite body, created their own colonies and then later intermingled with the Nephites and Lamanites. Thus, names like Korihor, Zenniff and Jarom existed among Nephite and Lamanite colonies.

This of course is all theory, but since it's impossible to completely detail two seperate civilizations that existed for hundreds of years in only 500 pages, any theory about the Nephites, Lamanites and Jaredites, anything idea is up for grabs.

[Magyar]

For those who believe there are names in the Book of Mormon that are derivative of Egyptian names, I have a question.

What is the theorized method of transmission from Egypt to the Promised Land, hundreds of years later?

Did Sariah bring along her book of "10,000 Egyptian Pagan Baby Names"?

And why would pre-Christian, Old Testament-believing, mosaic-law abiding people seek to preserve and inject Egyptian culture into this New World? And not just for the first few generations, but for hundreds and hundreds of years?

When the Nephites and Lamanites assimilated with the indigenous people, why didn't the indigenous peoples widely adopt the names of these new people (to the point that we would find them in some sort of archaeological or anthropological record) since they were widely adopting their religion, or why didn't the Nephites or Lamanites adopt the names of their new friends and converts after hundreds of years, to the point where we would find names from ancient Mesoamerica in the Book of Mormon later in the narrative?

Those are good questions, Cinepro, and I don't presume to have answers to all of them. But if I were to take a history book of America with me to some new land, in order that my children might remember our culture, it would contain names and stories of people like George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, etc., as well as important non-European Americans such as Lafayette and Sacagawea.

These names and stories could be treasured and passed down for centuries, relatively intact.

We know that the Lehites brought the brass plates with them, which according to the Book of Mormon, were much more detailed than our current Old Testament. Who knows what other writings they also brought from their old homeland, tales of Egypt, Syria, Babylon, etc. A clue to this is given in the Title of Liberty ritual, which some apologists connect to an ancient Persian myth.

Who knows how much interaction the Lehites had with indigenous American peoples? They were hardly politically correct 21st Century liberals. Maybe they looked down on them, considered them mere savages not worth the mention and certainly not worth adding to the baby book. How many Native American names do European-Americans give our children, for that matter?

Few Europeans outside of Hungary have given their children Hungarian names, such as Balacs and Tibor, in all the time those cultures have been cheek to jowl.

We also have to remember we have an abridgement of the records, not an exhaustive list.

Is it possible, too, that some of the Book of Mormon names we do have, represent corruptions of native names? Heck, the English tweaked Jacob into James, which only bear a remote resemblance to each other.

Just some thoughts.

[t2t2]

So.....the Jaredites are really Egyptians? Is that the angle?

I guess one must also assume that since all the other languages on Earth were scattered at this time that what the Jaredites spoke should have no correlation with another. Yes?

[t2t2]

Those are good questions, Cinepro, and I don't presume to have answers to all of them. But if I were to take a history book of America with me to some new land, in order that my children might remember our culture, it would contain names and stories of people like George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, etc., as well as important non-European Americans such as Lafayette and Sacagawea.

Seems to me that if the Isrealites were concerned enough about corruption that they would slaughter women and children rather than see pagan beliefs enter into their own, that taking a collection of Egyption myths along into the promise land would be rather NOT in keeping with what we know about them. No?

[Magyar]

So.....the Jaredites are really Egyptians? Is that the angle?

I guess one must also assume that since all the other languages on Earth were scattered at this time that what the Jaredites spoke should have no correlation with another. Yes?

I don't fully understand your questions here. But the late Nibley -- ah, I know you hate him but he makes some good points -- did some interesting research into the "great houses" from whence came the ancient Egyptians, Greeks and other Old World cultures.

He lists some fascinating connections, from city names, such as Thebes, to dynastic characteristics and even shared religious symbolism, the sacred bee of the Egyptians and the Scythians, for example.

So your Jaredite-Egyptian statement, even if you meant it in jest, could be more true than you think.

[t2t2]

So your Jaredite-Egyptian statement, even if you meant it in jest, could be more true than you think.

But go on to the next part of my question. Do you believe all the languages of the Earth were "confounded" at Babel and the people all scattered across the face of the land?

[Magyar]

Those are good questions, Cinepro, and I don't presume to have answers to all of them. But if I were to take a history book of America with me to some new land, in order that my children might remember our culture, it would contain names and stories of people like George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, etc., as well as important non-European Americans such as Lafayette and Sacagawea.

Seems to me that if the Isrealites were concerned enough about corruption that they would slaughter women and children rather than see pagan beliefs enter into their own, that taking a collection of Egyption myths along into the promise land would be rather NOT in keeping with what we know about them. No?

Others have written, with better knowledge than that which I have, of the strong Jewish-Egyptian affinity, at least in some Jewish circles, precisely at the time that Lehi lived. That would make this strange characteristic in the Book of Mormon another sign of authenticity.

We must also notice the clues in the Book of Mormon that the Lehites felt somewhat estranged from the dominant Jewish in-crowd in their homeland. Nephi betrays this detachment, and Lehi himself picked Ishmael, very likely an Arab, to be the source of his grandchildren.

[rameumptom]

Keep building those bookshelves!

Joseph Smith Sr. was a teacher for a while, right? Wouldn't you suppose a teacher might have a decent book collection?

Most teachers back then had very few books in their collection. I haven't seen any evidence of JS sr being a teacher. In fact, he hired Oliver Cowdery to teach his kids.

In any case, No basic frontier teacher would have had a library of books containing Egyptian or Hebrew, ancient Semitic rites, etc. Most public libraries today carry very little of this (most will have photos of a mummy and the Great Sphinx), and we have much greater access to books now than 200 years ago.

I suggest, go to your average public library today, and try and look through the books and magazines (I highly doubt Joseph Smith's local library had an Internet connection back then) and see just how much ancient information you can find. It would have to include information on Egyptian and Hebrew names, like Paanchi, Pahoran, Alma, etc. It would have to include information on ancient Year Rites, Dead Sea Scrolls, Wisdom literature, Tree of Life motif information, and many other points that have been brought up on this thread and others. IF you can find all this stuff, or even most of it, at your local library, THEN I would consider it possible for Joseph Smith to be able to write it in OUR day. Because many of those things were not even available until the last 60 years.

[Magyar]

So your Jaredite-Egyptian statement, even if you meant it in jest, could be more true than you think.

But go on to the next part of my question. Do you believe all the languages of the Earth were "confounded" at Babel and the people all scattered across the face of the land?

I believe exactly what the Bible and other relevant revelations say on this matter.

[Hemidakota]

No. Abraham was a child during that time and was born under the same linage as Shem. Jared was of the same. Nimrod ruled the known world and centralized the government of the earth in that area.

Again, as with the days of Noah, the same pattern begin to emerge during Nimrod's time.

Interesting tidbit is what the Prophet Joseph Smith commented regarding the building of the Nimrod's great tower

[Bertram]

You know I feel the way this thread is heading that someone is going to commit that old sin of "pride" and will be hurt very much ndeed when he eventually falls!

Mark my words "intellectual" arguments WILL NEVER prove anything about the GOSPEL!

Neither will " intellectual" conversions make any inwards in the GOSPEL pursuit!

The main purpose of this thread, I believe, was, if I remember evolved around what books the PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH had access to!

It would appear from some posters that he was not unlike that old "semi-truck" driver we talked about on the earlier thread:

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=5334&hl

Maybe it was a descendant of Joseph in that truck who had so many books as he drove around?

But then did Joseph have an articulated "wagon" as a huge Library?

[Hemidakota]

Going off on tangents is always a problem in any topic.

The answer is the only book he had access too was the Bible during his early youth. Any learned knowledge was from those frequent family Sunday meetings or local revivals. Later, he came into contact with other materials but none of which made it into the Book of Mormon.

[Bertram]

Fortunately the PROPHET JOSEPH did not have access to that wonderful Wikipedia web-site otherwise his critics would have had a field day!!

Curiously KAI XUE, WIKIPEDIA EDITOR, FREEMONT, CALIFORNIA, has just had a letter published in my local Newspaper admitting, inter alia, that his "encyclopaedia" system permits "random mischief" on the site!!!???

NO. JOSEPH SMITH did not need any literary assistance in the form of books.....no he has left the trawling and plagiarism to our would-be "critics"!

[t2t2]

I believe exactly what the Bible and other relevant revelations say on this matter.

Do you believe all the languages of the Earth were mixed up except for those of the Jaredites?

Others have written, with better knowledge than that which I have, of the strong Jewish-Egyptian affinity

I've asked for some examples and all you gave was a single royal artifact that had an emblem that would seem to be Egyptian. If there was a "strong" affinity you should have lots of examples, right?

---

Ram

It would have to include information on Egyptian and Hebrew names, like Paanchi, Pahoran, Alma, etc.

blah, blah. You posted a giant list of such several pages back. I took it upon myself to reply and provided a line by line explanation of my views on each and every point you raised.

Now you come back and act like my response never appeared here. Either converse with me - meaning we actually reply to each others' points and questions - or stop asking me questions.

[rameumptom]

Those are good questions, Cinepro, and I don't presume to have answers to all of them. But if I were to take a history book of America with me to some new land, in order that my children might remember our culture, it would contain names and stories of people like George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, etc., as well as important non-European Americans such as Lafayette and Sacagawea.

Seems to me that if the Isrealites were concerned enough about corruption that they would slaughter women and children rather than see pagan beliefs enter into their own, that taking a collection of Egyption myths along into the promise land would be rather NOT in keeping with what we know about them. No?

In Lehi's day, there were at least 2 major Jewish belief systems going on. One of these was temple-centered, run by the Deuteronomists. They did not believe in continued revelation, angels, miracles, new scripture, etc. These opposed Jeremiah and Lehi.

The other group believed in continuing revelation and living the ideals of the Abrahamic covenant. Jeremiah spoke highly of the Rekhabites that dwelt in the desert and lived as he believed they should, including sacrificing on altars when not at the temple. This form of worship was destroyed during the time of Josiah and the Deuteronomists; and is considered by Margaret Barker and other scholars as on of Jeremiah's key reasons for the destruction of Jerusalem.

The Jews of that time were closely tied to Egypt. Hezekiah's royal seal had a dung beetle on it, for example.

For example:

"Inscribed potsherds (ostraca) from the eighth and seventh centuries B.C.E. (Before Common Era, or B.C.), found in both Israel and Judah, provide evidence for writing in the tenth century B.C.E. "These ostraca contain Hebrew characters as well as signs and numerals in hieratics-a cursive form of Egyptian hieroglyphics.

"Curiously, these hieratic signs do not appear in contemporaneous documents of Israel's neighbors, even though Egypt's relations with Philistia and Phoenicia in the ninth and tenth centuries B.C.E. were much closer than those with Israel.

"Moreover, no eighth- or seventh-century Egyptian parallels have been found for many of the signs on the Hebrew ostraca." (Cow Town or Royal Capitol? Evidence For Iron Age Jerusalem, Nadav Na'aman, Biblical Archaeological Review, July/August 1997, p. 45).

[t2t2]

"Inscribed potsherds (ostraca) from the eighth and seventh centuries B.C.E. (Before Common Era, or B.C.), found in both Israel and Judah, provide evidence for writing in the tenth century B.C.E. "These ostraca contain Hebrew characters as well as signs and numerals in hieratics-a cursive form of Egyptian hieroglyphics.

No one doubts there was contact and commerce between the two countries. And it seems natural that the written languages would mix on occasion for the purpose of documents and commerce. The question is now - so what? One still has to explain how that would equate into Nephites knowing arab words 200+ years later. I've talked enough to my wife about Korea. She can even recognize the writing when she sees it. I've spoken it around her. But if you were to ask her if she knows a single word in the language she would say no. While I've told her stories there's no way she'd remember the name of a Korean folk hero. I barely can myself 15 years later. Unless you are frequently speaking it - languages disapear. What is left is what is used and spoken every day.

[rameumptom]

"Inscribed potsherds (ostraca) from the eighth and seventh centuries B.C.E. (Before Common Era, or B.C.), found in both Israel and Judah, provide evidence for writing in the tenth century B.C.E. "These ostraca contain Hebrew characters as well as signs and numerals in hieratics-a cursive form of Egyptian hieroglyphics.

No one doubts there was contact and commerce between the two countries. And it seems natural that the written languages would mix on occasion for the purpose of documents and commerce. The question is now - so what? One still has to explain how that would equate into Nephites knowing arab words 200+ years later. I've talked enough to my wife about Korea. She can even recognize the writing when she sees it. I've spoken it around her. But if you were to ask her if she knows a single word in the language she would say no. While I've told her stories there's no way she'd remember the name of a Korean folk hero. I barely can myself 15 years later. Unless you are frequently speaking it - languages disapear. What is left is what is used and spoken every day.

Arabic could have been learned by Lehi either during his time in Jerusalem (his sons Laman and Lemuel have Arabic names), or during the trip down the Spice trade route.

While the language may not have stayed with them, names could easily do so. We still use names that are found in the Bible, even after millennium. Given the Nephites had records, it would not been hard for someone to check through old records to come up with names, like we do today with baby name books.

Note that Arabic is a Semitic language, similar to Hebrew. It isn't the same comparison as you gave with Korean, which is not in the same language family as English. (Nice try in trying to derail a discussion by comparing apples and oranges, but not good enough).

Your wife may not know any Korean words, but chances are she may know a few Korean names: Pak, Li, etc. And that is with a country most Americans do not know much about. How about something closer, and with a language that is in the same family as ours: say German or Spanish? She definitely knows names from those, I'd wager. Do you know any 5th generation American latinos named Juan, or Germans named Karl? I do, so I'm not surprised at all to see this same occurrence in the BoM.

And for other Arab words, do we not have words slip into our language and become key words? Try llama, for example. It comes from an obscure language called Quechua. Yet we use it frequently. Ever look in a dictionary at how many of our words come from other languages? And given that the Nephites had no problem with writing in another language (reformed Egyptian), it's very possible that they had no problem adopting words in other languages to their own usage. I'm not saying it would have to be many words, but only a few that they may have picked up along the spice trade route.

[Magyar]

My theories about the nature of the language diffusion from the Tower of Babel are just that, theories. All I have to go on for sure, is what is revealed in scripture, because, umm, I wasn't there.

We don't have to interpret the scriptural account to mean that a lightning bolt crashed down from heaven and suddenly, nobody made sense to each other. In fact, the Jaredite account makes it obvious that that didn't happen, for the main man had time to pray that his family's language wouldn't be confounded.

I believe that God destroyed the tower and scattered the people, with language change being the result. How long it took doesn't matter. We do know that language doesn't require eons to change, even without divine intervention. In just about 2,000 years, Latin has given birth to Italian, Romanian, French, Spanish, etc. In far less than that, the various dialects of S. American Spanish have emerged and American English has become a different animal from its British parent.

Else I could expect more than blank stares in Boston if I ask for a biscuit while riding on the back of a lorry trying to forget I need to get to the loo really badly and hoping a bobby won't whack my bum if I hop out in traffic and catch the lift to the nearest flat with a nice WC.

And as for your Korean analogy, you forget the prodigious generational memories that people had in centuries past, along with the possibility that some of these stories, names and all, were written down. I don't remember a lot of cultural details from my time in Hungary, but I brought books home and can easily reacquaint myself with them if need be.

[t2t2]

Do you know any 5th generation American latinos named Juan, or Germans named Karl? I do, so I'm not surprised at all to see this same occurrence in the BoM.

I do. But I DON'T know anyone named Juan because their 5th great grandfather once visited Mexico and knew Spanish. That's not how it typically works.

It isn't the same comparison as you gave with Korean, which is not in the same language family as English. (Nice try in trying to derail a discussion by comparing apples and oranges, but not good enough).

Yes.... ...you're right. By using the example of a language I actually speak, thereby relfecting personal experience, I was trying to "derail" the discussion. Whatever dude. Go back to your looooong post and my responses 3 pages ago before you accuse me of being the one that derails (or abruptly ends) discussions.

Ever look in a dictionary at how many of our words come from other languages? And given that the Nephites had no problem with writing in another language (reformed Egyptian), it's very possible that they had no problem adopting words in other languages to their own usage. I'm not saying it would have to be many words, but only a few that they may have picked up along the spice trade route.

Sure. Happens all the time. BUT - it happens primarily when there IS no word for something. Computer in Korean (here I go again, derailing the thread) is com-pu-tuh. They had no native word so they used ours. Spanish mole is....mole (and yummy). We have no such dish - we use their word. Fine. But let's suppose you travel to a deserted island and find a new type of berry that looks vaguely like a raspberry. Are you more likely to name it raspberry or frambuesa (should you also happen to know the spanish word)?

[Zeitgeist]

Juliann,

Actually I do find it silly people leave the church over adieu on its own. Like I said you stack up the hits and misses. Look at it inductively besides just deductively. The church makes a fantastic claim - it better provide some fantastic evidence. None of which I find particularly strong either way. I just have a standard of evidence level that is pretty high for me to accept what the church requires of me. I treat just about every organization this way. You better prove your case if you want me to pay for it.

One thing that members might want to consider: that the church and all the details aren't that important to some people. I left the church not over the Book of Mormon or over Joseph Smith. I left because I do not believe in God. This was primary. Everything else just followed.

I am a Mormon historian. So what does matter to me in this way (not religiously) are the details regarding Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. This is more a hobby than a spiritual quest. Anyhow, in answer to the many books question. I do not think Joseph is required to have used anything but his own imagination. Why not? I mean he was creative, had a reputation for story telling, and he was truly a thinker. Reading his own writing I find myself agreeing with a lot of what he says about a lot of things. I consider him one of the great American thinkers of his time. He certainly was a doer as well. More than many of us. SO I would never knowck him in this way. I also find him sincere in many ways. I also find him a rascal, with a devious side too. But this is normal and human and to me doesn't necessarily reflect on the religion. Religion is all a farce and a crux to me anyhow. Nobody should be surprised by anything I say. I just find it hypocritical that people say I am biased because I will not uphold some faith promoting angle on a story. I can tell the story with all the same details in my way. This is history. It isn't science.

Zeitgeist

[suem]

Whew! I have been reading this thread for 2 whole days and I finally got to the end!

Interesting subject.

Changes nothing in my perspective, but interesting none-the-less.

Zeitgeist wrote:

One thing that members might want to consider: that the church and all the details aren't that important to some people. I left the church not over the Book of Mormon or over Joseph Smith. I left because I do not believe in God. This was primary. Everything else just followed.

Me too... sort of. I came to the realization that ALL religion is man-made, and the church crumbled right before my eyes. And I have yet to find any answers that would put it back together for me.

So In my perspective, I can see how easy it would have been for JS to make it all up. Other people did it with the rest of religion, why not JS?

[t2t2]

Mine was that I stopped wasting my life away on my knees waiting for an anwer. But it IS interesting to go back and analyze things from the other side, as we do now.

[thesometimesaint]

t2t2:

I've always felt what was most important in our lives is what we do after we get up off our knees.

We will never prove The Bible or The Book of Mormon or any other Scripture scientifically. That is just not the way it happens. But it is in our own daily lives of living the Gospel that our own "proof" comes.