How current beliefs stem from such destruction.

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, Devobah said:

I spent a lot of time thinking of this yesterday, and it looks like you have some solid answers already!

I'll add my two cents though. It's hard to separate a church from God when they claim to be the only true church. Catholics, Orthodox, JWs, and the LDS church make this claim. I think one of the things about the beginnings is that, if one looks at it through a purely historical sense, it looks like a bunch of power hungry men excommunicating each other. It's hard to look at that and not see a mess, even if you do have faith in God. I saw this when I first starting looking into church history. 

As a member of the LDS church I see both histories as messy, because the past is messy. (Keep in mind I'm looking at this through a faithful lens, so I might sound a bit TBMy) With the Catholics, the apostles died and the early church fathers were left to try and keep things together. The first thing they had to get right was the nature of God and the relation to Jesus Christ. Various heresies were easy to weed out, and some were not because of legitimate concerns or scriptural backing (or at least what they thought). Then there was the issue of the cannon of scripture. What makes something scripture? What should go in the Old and New Testament? The New Testament was easier to sort out than the Old. Do they go with what the Jews held as scripture? Which sect of Jews? There's a lot to sort out there.

With the restoration, Joseph was constantly being corrected, and asking questions. It's how we get more of the great revelations from the Doctrine and Covenants. Joseph had to put away old habits and get used to being a prophet of God. How do you organize a church with a bunch of different protestant backgrounds? What truths did the sects have their that didn't get lost? Joseph Smith said that bits of truth were found in every denomination. (Keep in mind that it was more the creeds that were the abomination, rather than the churches themselves.) It's always difficult because history is difficult.

Hopefully this helps.

Can't wait till I can give you likes! Thank you!

[Devobah]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Can't wait till I can give you likes! Thank you!

You're very welcome! I just hope that I represented Catholic history fairly. The important thing to remember is that history is hardly simple, and is not black and white. I often come back to the phrase "History is written by the victors." It's not true in a lot of cases, but I think it can apply here. I'm sure the Catholic and Orthodox members of the chat can correct me on my simplified paragraph on the history of the early church. I invite it and welcome it. One thing I want to be sure to do on the board is be accurate and fair to how history is presented. I appreciate the encouragement!😄

[Teancum]

On 5/21/2024 at 11:39 AM, blackstrap said:

Anti- Catholic tracts should be kept off the forum.

That said ,deaths caused by religious thinking pales by comparison with deaths caused by followers of atheistic philosophy.

What is atheism philosophy? Atheism is really and simply just a lack of belief in a god being.  That is it. There is no organized system of thought, philosophy or anything like organized religion. So your comment is simply not true. Were there leaders of political movements that were atheists?  Sure.  But that  was not what  drove their murderous regimes.

[Teancum]

On 5/21/2024 at 11:45 AM, CV75 said:

Re: "all religions are man’s invention" -- note to self, go see the new Planet of the Apes flick!

I loved the Planet of the Apes series from the 60s an 70s.  I have watched the recent flicks.  The special effects of course are better than the originals but the movies are not.

[manol]

On 5/22/2024 at 8:36 PM, Tacenda said:

Thanks so much for your suggestions or experience with different faiths' types of scriptures. I wish I was as strong with delving in on many ideas from all walks of life. I should have explained better that I dislike specifically Bible scriptures in the Old Testament usually that are harmful to women and the ones showing God to be not my God anyway. So I've not ventured away from the Bible/BoM scriptures. Maybe it's time I do. Thanks for your precious time BD! ❤️

 

@Tacenda I came across something recently which made me think of you and your dislike for some of the Old Testament (which I share). 

What is apparently the earliest known copy of Deuteronomy was discovered in a Bedouin cave in the 1880's, and it does not have any of the ritual sacrifice laws that our version of Deuteronomy has!  The only laws it had were the Ten Commandments, and even those were a bit different (apparently a command not to hate was originally included).  So apparently ALL of the ritual/sacrificial laws were added AFTER this copy of Deuteronomy was written, presumably by the priests, because they were financially supported by the ritual sacrifices that the people gave to them. 

(Originally this copy of Deuteronomy was dismissed as a forgery because it was physically unprecedented in several respects, but physically very similar ancient documents have been discovered since then.)

I thought of you because arguably this is an example of deliberate and major self-serving changes having been made in the Old Testament by those who benefited from them, and imo it suggests the possibility that perhaps there were other such changes made to other books besides Deuteronomy. 

Here is the video where I first heard about this earlier-and-somewhat-different version of Deuteronomy, cued up to the imo most relevant part, which goes from about 7 minutes to about 13:12.  The man speaking is a former minister who changed paths because he could no longer accept the hellfire teachings of his church:

https://youtu.be/cyivXDVwJdc?t=425

And here is an interview with the author whose book I think he's drawing from:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C83dnf4na4c&t=863s

Edited January 29, 2025 by manol

[manol]

Oops double post.

Edited January 28, 2025 by manol