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Gospel Writers, Muhammad, and Joseph Smith


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20 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

The evangelicals I recommend are all trained at secular schools.

That is an interesting distinction. Most of the LDS scholars I like also were trained at secular schools and teach in them. So I guess we agree. However, the one you just recommended to me taught at Moody for over twenty years. That historically has been more Fundamentalist than Evangelical. Not sure about that today. Everyone I know who taught or went there is now retired. Wheaton has always been Evangelical. Ditto for Westmont. Ditto for Eastern. Someone, I don't remember if it was you recommended a book to me by a graduate of Bob Jones! Methinks bright, capable, and competent people come from all traditions, but usually go through some kind of migration through their lives. I know I have. Some of my LDS friends have also undergone a migration in their lives as well.  Take care.

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3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Pragmatism:

D&C 93:30

"All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence."

Truth is approximated in paradigms/ideas that work (act) in their sphere- deciding how well they work for your purpose is part of intelligence.  Without ideas that work, nothing would exist.

You need to write a book, The Postmodern Doctrine and Covenants. Pitch to to Kofford.

9789004116610.jpg?height=500&v=v2-5b1262

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5 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Sorry, that's abject nonsense. Especially in America, where the Constitution protects individual rights at the expense of group rights.

It was a general statement.  But maybe you ought to drill into it a bit. I recommend the book The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris.

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5 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Sorry, that's abject nonsense. Especially in America, where the Constitution protects individual rights at the expense of group rights.

And by the way the the American Constitution actually does focus on what morals are best for humans.  But the American Constitution is not the penultimate on morals necessarily.  But is seems a good starting point. Especially when it comes to keeping religion out of legislating morals.

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On 4/22/2023 at 1:21 PM, mfbukowski said:

Wrong. What do you think all these changes are about?

Why is Pres Nelson stressing getting your own testimony? It's getting your own truth.

Uhh no.  This is not new.  Stressing getting your own "testimony" has been around for quite some time. Nothing new.

 

On 4/22/2023 at 1:21 PM, mfbukowski said:

Why have there been all the temple changes? They had to back it up to a third grade level.

Who knows.  What is your point on this one.

 

On 4/22/2023 at 1:21 PM, mfbukowski said:

Why aren't we "Mormons" any more?

Because Nelson had a hang up on the name Mormon and now he is in power he can change something Hinckley scolded him on.  Nothing more or less.

 

On 4/22/2023 at 1:21 PM, mfbukowski said:

Because our views on history do not match 21st century sensibilities.

Huh?

On 4/22/2023 at 1:21 PM, mfbukowski said:

EVERY HISTORIC "FACT" IS HEARSAY, THAT PEOPLE ACCEPT

No. That is your view.  Actual historians would disagree.

 

On 4/22/2023 at 1:21 PM, mfbukowski said:

Maybe they happened, maybe not.

That is the point of historic study.

 

On 4/22/2023 at 1:21 PM, mfbukowski said:

Today people have FAITH in science.

Umm no it is not faith in science.

On 4/22/2023 at 1:21 PM, mfbukowski said:

Every belief you keep is because you BELIEVE it is " true", without evidence. You have to BELIEVE the evidence IS "evidence"

We need to understand that evidence is 100% in the eyes of the beholder.  It is a MIRROR of what is already in your mind; there are no "facts"- only interpretations- Nietzsche.

The old god- spirit in the sky- everywhere and nowhere at once- is dead

Did God make humanity, or did humanity make God?

Both!

God IS Humanity perfected, and we know it. He IS the Ubermensch we can become.

 

 

Humanity made god?

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Thanks guys I have been working on it for years.

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On 4/22/2023 at 6:06 PM, Hamilton Porter said:

There are more and more postmodern professors at BYU making postmodern arguments. I even saw one of my Sunday school teachers carry a book titled Postmodern Theology. He didn't quote the book during the lesson but I have no doubt he slipped some in.

It's more pervasive in the church than you think.

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence.  Very few members or LDS leaders approach their religion like this.  

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8 minutes ago, Teancum said:

It was a general statement.  But maybe you ought to drill into it a bit. I recommend the book The Moral Landscape by Sam Harris.

Why do you think he said that you can kill people for having dangerous ideas, and then claim he was taken out of context? Because as long as it benefits the species, it's fine to kill anyone you need to. Think it through. 

In contrast, Western society is based on individual rights, not the benefit of the species. 

10 minutes ago, Teancum said:

And by the way the the American Constitution actually does focus on what morals are best for humans. 

For individual humans, not "human kind."

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51 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence.  Very few members or LDS leaders approach their religion like this.  

This is not an election.  Religion like a educative concerns seeks to TEACH people who do NOT KNOW things - the things they do not know.

The reason plumbers exist is that most people do not know plumbing.  Doctors exist because people do not want to operate on their own hearts.   This is not a good argument.

"What most people do NOT KNOW" is why schools were invented.

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13 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

This is not an election.  Religion like a educative concerns seeks to TEACH people who do NOT KNOW things - the things they do not know.

The reason plumbers exist is that most people do not know plumbing.  Doctors exist because people do not want to operate on their own hearts.   This is not a good argument.

"What most people do NOT KNOW" is why schools were invented.

OK.....I'll bite . . . . why were schools invented?

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3 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

GenZ people don't. They don't like science or organized religion. They just eat Tide Pods.

Whereas the older generations like to characterize whole generations by what a few hundred did so they can continue the cliche of “Kids these days” that has been the hallmark of bitter old folks since the first humans got old.

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2 hours ago, Navidad said:

OK.....I'll bite . . . . why were schools invented?

Turn up your hearing aid.

"Religion like a educative concerns seeks to TEACH people who do NOT KNOW things - the things they do not know."

"Educative concerns" are SCHOOLS.

I KNOW it's a heavy concept, but people go to schools to LEARN THINGS!

And go go to church for the same reason..   Sunday School!

I know you attend weekly

Edited by mfbukowski
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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Whereas the older generations like to characterize whole generations by what a few hundred did so they can continue the cliche of “Kids these days” that has been the hallmark of bitter old folks since the first humans got old.

We have surveys.

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8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I KNOW it's a heavy concept, but people go to schools to LEARN THINGS!

And you think "most people" don't know that? I was hoping for something a little more philosophical from you. There is clearly a gap between teaching and learning. The causes of that gap and its remediation are the great challenges to schools and to LEARNING THINGS!

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13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

This is not an election. 

I did not say it was. 

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

 

Religion like a educative concerns seeks to TEACH people who do NOT KNOW things - the things they do not know.

And religions teach things to people that they may not know in a myriad of ways and many of those ways conflict. This comes back to things we have discussed over and over.

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The reason plumbers exist is that most people do not know plumbing.  Doctors exist because people do not want to operate on their own hearts.   This is not a good argument.

"What most people do NOT KNOW" is why schools were invented.

Yet we don't have 50,000 different approaches to plumbing do we?  But we do for religion that is supposed to reach us things we do not know.  

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18 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

GenZ people don't. They don't like science or organized religion. They just eat Tide Pods.

GenZ and tide pods, millennials and avocado toast, boomers and murdering people who harmlessly use their driveway to turn around…I guess each generation has their quirks 🤷‍♂️

Edited by Smiley McGee
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