Shots fired at Hill Cumorah

[Stargazer]

7 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

In the UK, we would have to rigourously prove self defence, and winning your case would not be a certainty based upon the right to carry licenced fire arm. There was a case some years ago where an elderly farmer who lived alone in his remote farmhouse and who had been subject to previous attacks by youths, shot  two young intruders in his house. He killed one and wounded another. Even though he had been harassed by youths before was convicted and went to prison. He was discharged early, but his self defence plea didn't win his case.

In the US the prosecutor probably wouldn't even have charged him.

About four years ago an elderly couple here in the UK were attacked in their home by two young men, one of them armed with a screwdriver. The wife had dementia and was bedridden, her husband was 78, and while scuffling with one of the attackers in their kitchen, the man stabbed him with his own screwdriver. The assailant died after fleeing the house. Of course the police arrested the old man and threw him in jail. Eventually, the authorities decided to not try him for murder. But because the dead assailant was a member of a "traveler" gang, the couple had to move out of their house because of constant threats from the gang, which the police seemingly couldn't do anything about. 

My son-in-law told me that if I ever got mugged here, I better not say anything offensive to my attacker or else I might find myself charged with a public order offence. 

I feel perfectly safe here in Sussex, but I also felt perfectly safe in Washington state in the US, despite guns being freely available and legal. 

 

[The Nehor]

40 minutes ago, longview said:

Eli D#cken* was heroic and a very excellent example of the citizen militia.  He lives in a farming community.  Thankfully he was concealed carry and saved many many lives in the Greenwood Park Mall.

*Reason for pound sign:  the censoring software does not like the letter "i" in the surname.

He wasn’t a citizen militia. He was a competent guy who took action an prevented further deaths. Three people are still dead. I wouldn’t count this as a victory for the value of the Second Amendment that occasionally we can hope for a competent person with a firearm to be in the vicinity that can potentially lessen the number of deaths. If it wasn’t so easy to get a gun though the whole thing could potentially have been avoided.

35 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Not so. With evil-doers crawling the streets with firearms, not at all caring about the illegality of their actions, having a firearm for defense is prudence, not cowardice.  If your attacker has a gun, and you only have your fists, you're at a supreme disadvantage. And there's no point in running, because you'll only die tired. I concede that running might be a good defense against a robber, since his aim is to take your property, and the gun is -- usually -- only being used as a way to avoid argument over who gets to keep your property.  I'm old and rather decrepit, however, and running isn't something I can do any longer.

I note that under English common law, when faced with a deadly weapon, deadly force is a lawful defense.  Except nowadays. I am living in the UK, where law-abiding citizens aren't allowed even to carry a knife for self-defense. And of course, knife-crime in London and other big cities is quite a problem. Along with acid attacks. Does this make the Brits more courageous, then, because they're not allowed to carry guns?

And, I seem to have read somewhere: "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed." I think it was in Alma 43 somewhere. Perhaps verse 47. I suppose that the Nephites were cowards, too, since the equivalent of the gun back then was the sword, and the Nephites definitely had those for self-defense.

 

Actually running is the smart move if someone has a gun. Zig-zag a little as you run. When I was involved in combat training classes I saw how unlikely it is to be able to hit a target that is any distance from you if you have to aim for them. The reality is that most people cannot aim well at all. That includes criminals, police, and the average man on the street.

I got beat up on my mission in Britain. Knife crime is falling off in Britain due to restrictions that make it more difficult to carry a knife in public and attempts to combat the social problems that lead to it. You know, the stuff the United States refuses to do about gun violence. We would legalize open knife carry and argue that everyone should have a knife.

The Lord did tell people to defend themselves but that was in the context of military action. God was not advocating that every civilian should carry a sword at all times just in case. In truth, the best descriptions of people obsessed with their ability to kill comes from the Books of Mormon and Ether. The people who ‘slept on their swords’ were not the good guys.

26 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Of course you don't.

From your post: "The gun problem in US is so bad that hotel guests are advised not to stand near windows... pathetic."

That's a very telling point! But it doesn't tell the tale you're trying to sell. The "gun problem" indicated is in Chicago, a city and state with very stringent gun control laws. The only people who have guns are the criminals. This is also a city where the prosecutor doesn't feel like prosecuting criminals. Chicago ought to be the last city you attempt to use as a shining example of how guns are the problem. Meanwhile, feel free to stay in any hotel in Seattle, Washington, a state where one out of every 20 persons statewide has a permit to carry a concealed pistol, and where gun ownership is extremely common because it's quite legal. The windows in Seattle may safely be stood in front of.

Oh for crying out loud.

The Chicago has strict gun control laws so that only criminals have guns is a lie. It is harder to purchase a firearm in Chicago (and Illinois in general) than it is in most states.

However guns are LEGAL in Chicago! It is not only criminals that have them. That is an abject self-serving LIE put out by LIARS! It is a deliberate lie! It was very intentional and politicians have repeated this lie. Please turn on whoever told you that and never trust them again.

It is harder to acquire weapons in Illinois. Chicago though is near the state border and most firearms involved in crimes in Chicago are found to have been purchased outside of the state. It is almost as if national gun control laws would do more good.

It is worth noting that Illinois gun control laws do seem to have an effect. Per capita gun deaths are lower in Illinois than they are in, for example, Texas. Gun control laws can work but the weak ones in Illinois don’t have a huge effect. There was an attempt to make gun control more strict there but the Supreme Court struck it down so we don’t have data for how much more that would have helped.

In America we live by the gun and we die by the gun. The greatest mark of citizenship and patriotism is to carry a tool whose sole purpose is to kill people. We are a very sick society.

[longview]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

He wasn’t a citizen militia. He was a competent guy who took action an prevented further deaths.

"We The People" that honor and uphold the Constitution are citizen militia.  We have millions of gun owners that are law-abiding, know and practice gun safety (unlike Alec Baldwin), understand the need for a moral people to obtain more fully the blessings of Constitutional governance.

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Three people are still dead. I wouldn’t count this as a victory for the value of the Second Amendment that occasionally we can hope for a competent person with a firearm to be in the vicinity that can potentially lessen the number of deaths. If it wasn’t so easy to get a gun though the whole thing could potentially have been avoided.

Eli responded immediately.  It only took the perp a few seconds to kill the three but Eli was able to stop him plenty fast.  What do you expect?  For Eli to be a mind-reader?  You are way overboard ridiculous.  Better this than a 5 minute wait (at best) for police response.  At Uvalde the police stood in the lobby for over an hour while the killer was allowed to keep shooting the little innocents (thank the Lord the off-duty Border Patrol agent independently charged in to put a stop to it).  Gun free zones DON'T work!  It only incentivizes depraved killers.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, longview said:

"We The People" that honor and uphold the Constitution are citizen militia.  We have millions of gun owners that are law-abiding, know and practice gun safety (unlike Alec Baldwin), understand the need for a moral people to obtain more fully the blessings of Constitutional governance.

The Citizen militia is the national guard. Independent non-government groups of people who like cosplaying as soldiers are not a citizen militia. A militia is organized to be called up to defend a nation when needed by the government.

And yes, I am sure Jim-Bob at the local military cosplay militia is deeply tutored in film firearm safety which involves a lot of elements the average gun user never deals with. Alec Baldwin wasn’t supposed to check the weapon. The experts were supposed to prep it. Actors screwing around with firearms would cause more problems than it would solve. Not sure why you brought that up. Am I supposed to be an Alec Baldwin fan or something?

1 hour ago, longview said:

Eli responded immediately.  It only took the perp a few seconds to kill the three but Eli was able to stop him plenty fast.  What do you expect?  For Eli to be a mind-reader?  You are way overboard ridiculous.  Better this than a 5 minute wait (at best) for police response.  At Uvalde the police stood in the lobby for over an hour while the killer was allowed to keep shooting the little innocents (thank the Lord the off-duty Border Patrol agent independently charged in to put a stop to it).  Gun free zones DON'T work!  It only incentivizes depraved killers.

I didn’t fault him for not shooting the killer in advance. I was saying that armed people shooting active shooters is still going to result in a lot of deaths. It is not his fault. It is the fact that we have too many guns and it is way too easy for people to get a hold of them.

Not the Gun Free Zone strawman again. Did I mention a Gun Free Zone? Did I say it was a solution? Are you just countering some imaginary enemy in your head that started talking about Gun Free Zones? They aren’t an overall solution. They exist in some places because there are areas we don’t want guns in. Courthouses, airports, schools. In most of those areas people go through some sort of screening. The definition of a “gun free zone” is so vague that the point is meaningless. By some definitions a military base and the White House are gun-free zones so should we expect a rash of mass shootings at military bases or assume the White House is a soft target? It is a ridiculous talking point.