Eph2,8 Posted August 18, 2021 Posted August 18, 2021 1 hour ago, bOObOO said: I think I understand your point and I think I once saw things that way too, but as I understand how it works now there is another factor at work which you didn't mention and may not be considering. How do we get to be like Jesus. Yes I believe he forgives us and cleanses us from all of our sins at the moment we accept him as our Savior, if we are then doing our best to do what we feel certain he wants us to do. We believe in him when we feel certain he wants us to believe in him. We repent from our sins, at least the sins we are aware of, when we feel certain he wants us to repent from our sins, when feeling certain that something we do is a sin. And we obey his command to be baptized when we feel certain he wants us to be baptized. We call all of that following him, doing what we feel certain he wants us to do. ,And then eventually we become like Jesus in every particular. We do what he would do if he were in our situation. We think and believe as he does., We become like him, as he is like our Father. Isn't that what you would call doing something? Is it not all some form of work, requiring some effort, the physical acts of doing and being like Jesus? That is how we become exalted like he is. It isn't just a matter of believing. It is putting our beliefs into action with the goal of becoming like Jesus as he is like our Father in heaven. Well, I'm not sure we have to do things only when we are certain - I would point to Alma 32 for that. But, I think maybe we are using different presuppositions of the word "belief" and "faith". Habakkuk 2:4 states that "the just shall live by his faith." The phrase "by his faith" in Hebrew can also mean fidelity. When I say faith, I'm talking about much more than a passive belief. I'm talking about fidelity and loyalty to God, the closer meaning of the Hebrew phrase in the Old Testament. I actually think your response can be settled by an appeal to the original scripture that started this thread - Mosiah 2:21 "I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants." I'm assuming that you would equate "serve" with "follow". Your response seemed to say that we can profit something by how well we follow Christ. Does that line up with Mosiah 2? Are we not profiting (gaining) something in the way you described it? I absolutely agree that the true believers are commanded to work and be like Jesus. However, I do not believe that the work we do earns us those greatest blessings which the Father gives. "Relying alone upon the merits of Jesus" implies that my salvation is not a mixture of me and Jesus. It's not "wow, I did pretty good and Jesus filled the rest!" Also, do we really believe that we follow Jesus well enough to merit a spot in the Celestial Kingdom of our own doing? I sin everyday, and so does every one else on the planet. We are joking ourselves if we think we're good enough for those blessings. I agree, changing our nature into God's takes time. But it's not like we are only exalted once we have reached "75% like God." If we say we must work our way, we laugh in the face of God's justice. We say that God can excuse our character imperfections because we are "good enough." Rather, God excuses our imperfections by looking at the perfection of Jesus, which pleases and fills His wrath (need for justice). Think of Doctrine and Covenants 45:3-5. This is Jesus explaining how He is the Mediator. Notice how while Jesus is Mediating for us, He never actually mentions our works. "3 Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him— 4 Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified; 5 Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life." Those who believe on His name (the covenant children) are spared (saved/exalted/whatever) because of Jesus' merit. He appeals to Himself, rather than saying "look Father, these guys are pretty good. Spare them, give them a seat in your Kingdom. They tried hard, and had lots of good works." We are to be loyal to Jesus. Our covenants bind us to Him and allow us to find shelter under the umbrella of His grace. That shelter gives us the space we need to learn and grow. But, salvation is not a "look at me God. I worked hard." If it was, we'd be damned Ephesians 2:9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast."
bOObOO Posted August 18, 2021 Posted August 18, 2021 15 minutes ago, Eph2,8 said: Well, I'm not sure we have to do things only when we are certain - I would point to Alma 32 for that. But, I think maybe we are using different presuppositions of the word "belief" and "faith". Habakkuk 2:4 states that "the just shall live by his faith." The phrase "by his faith" in Hebrew can also mean fidelity. When I say faith, I'm talking about much more than a passive belief. I'm talking about fidelity and loyalty to God, the closer meaning of the Hebrew phrase in the Old Testament. If faith were about being loyal I would wonder how I should determine who and what I should be loyal to, and how to be loyal to whoever or whatever. And I would be looking for some way to feel certain that i was on the right track, otherwise while I might want to be loyal to a person I refer to God our Father in heaven or Jesus Christ I might think I am being loyal by doing whatever it is I am doing and be way off track and not doing what he or they would like me to do, So, no, being faithful is not so much about being loyal but about being certain I am on the right track, receiving guidance/faith from him or them to help me feel certain about how to do what they want me to do. Joseph Smith used the word assurance when translating what Paul said in the NT when talking about what faith is and all about. When we receive faith from God we are receiving his assurance about whatever it is we may wonder about. 15 minutes ago, Eph2,8 said: I actually think your response can be settled by an appeal to the original scripture that started this thread - Mosiah 2:21 "I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants." I'm assuming that you would equate "serve" with "follow". Your response seemed to say that we can profit something by how well we follow Christ. Does that line up with Mosiah 2? Are we not profiting (gaining) something in the way you described it? Of course we can profit by following God and his counsel to us. King Benjamin was talking about how God doesn't profit by us following him,. The fact that we follow God doesn't give God something he doesn't already have. One more fan or follower is just another one of the fans/followers he already has, and he would still be as great as he is even if he didn't have any fans or followers. 15 minutes ago, Eph2,8 said: I absolutely agree that the true believers are commanded to work and be like Jesus. However, I do not believe that the work we do earns us those greatest blessings which the Father gives. "Relying alone upon the merits of Jesus" implies that my salvation is not a mixture of me and Jesus. It's not "wow, I did pretty good and Jesus filled the rest!" Also, do we really believe that we follow Jesus well enough to merit a spot in the Celestial Kingdom of our own doing? I sin everyday, and so does every one else on the planet. We are joking ourselves if we think we're good enough for those blessings. I agree, changing our nature into God's takes time. But it's not like we are only exalted once we have reached "75% like God." If we say we must work our way, we laugh in the face of God's justice. We say that God can excuse our character imperfections because we are "good enough." Rather, God excuses our imperfections by looking at the perfection of Jesus, which pleases and fills His wrath (need for justice). Think of Doctrine and Covenants 45:3-5. This is Jesus explaining how He is the Mediator. Notice how while Jesus is Mediating for us, He never actually mentions our works. "3 Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him— 4 Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified; 5 Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life." Those who believe on His name (the covenant children) are spared (saved/exalted/whatever) because of Jesus' merit. He appeals to Himself, rather than saying "look Father, these guys are pretty good. Spare them, give them a seat in your Kingdom. They tried hard, and had lots of good works." We are to be loyal to Jesus. Our covenants bind us to Him and allow us to find shelter under the umbrella of His grace. That shelter gives us the space we need to learn and grow. But, salvation is not a "look at me God. I worked hard." If it was, we'd be damned Ephesians 2:9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast." The point of following Jesus and God, for us, is for us to someday become as great and wonderful as they are. I know most of us are still a mess right now but we can become better and even as great as they are. We just need to do all we can to follow their counsel and guidance. Otherwise, we will remain inferior people who they could have helped had we been willing to follow their counsel and guidance. And they will get the credit and the glory if we do become as great as they are. All we will have done at that point is to faithfully follow their counsel and guidance.
Eph2,8 Posted August 18, 2021 Posted August 18, 2021 2 hours ago, bOObOO said: If faith were about being loyal I would wonder how I should determine who and what I should be loyal to, and how to be loyal to whoever or whatever. And I would be looking for some way to feel certain that i was on the right track, otherwise while I might want to be loyal to a person I refer to God our Father in heaven or Jesus Christ I might think I am being loyal by doing whatever it is I am doing and be way off track and not doing what he or they would like me to do, So, no, being faithful is not so much about being loyal but about being certain I am on the right track, receiving guidance/faith from him or them to help me feel certain about how to do what they want me to do. Joseph Smith used the word assurance when translating what Paul said in the NT when talking about what faith is and all about. When we receive faith from God we are receiving his assurance about whatever it is we may wonder about. Well, I was hoping it would go without saying that I mean loyalty to Christ and His commands. Loyalty to God representing our faith and commitment to Him is used often in the Old Testament, the book of Hosea being a good example. We can know that we are being loyal to the correct principles/commands/Beings by reading the scriptures and seeing what God has said about those things! But yes I actually really do agree: faith does bring an assurance. Absolutely. I don't see how loyalty and assurance are contradictory, I think "faith" can include both of those things! Hebrews 6 has some really, really interesting stuff about faith being an assurance towards the end. It talks about the Abrahamic Covenant and how Abraham was given an assurance of eternal life through his faith. 2 hours ago, bOObOO said: Of course we can profit by following God and his counsel to us. King Benjamin was talking about how God doesn't profit by us following him,. The fact that we follow God doesn't give God something he doesn't already have. One more fan or follower is just another one of the fans/followers he already has, and he would still be as great as he is even if he didn't have any fans or followers. Oh absolutely! It all depends on what we are talking about. If I follow God's counsel, will I generally live a healthier, better, more fulfilled life? YES! Will I "profit" by keeping the word of wisdom? Yes! But... can I "profit" Exaltation or Salvation through my deeds and service? No. Here is a great quote from Elder Uchtdorf, "Even if we were to serve God with our whole souls, it is not enough, for we would still be 'unprofitable servants.' We cannot earn our way into heaven" (The Gift of Grace, April 2014). It all depends on what kind of profit you mean. Also interesting side note, Elder Uchtdorf used Mosiah 2:21 to mean what I have interpreted it as. I definitely think it can be used this way! And... does God not technically gain something He doesn't have from our exaltation? Joseph Smith in the King Follet Sermon taught that Exaltation and Eternity is like rungs on a ladder. When we are exalted, God will move to the next "rung", something He does not already have. Personally, I'm not sure where I stand with everything in the King Follet Sermon, but it is something fascinating to talk about. 2 hours ago, bOObOO said: The point of following Jesus and God, for us, is for us to someday become as great and wonderful as they are. I know most of us are still a mess right now but we can become better and even as great as they are. We just need to do all we can to follow their counsel and guidance. Otherwise, we will remain inferior people who they could have helped had we been willing to follow their counsel and guidance. And they will get the credit and the glory if we do become as great as they are. All we will have done at that point is to faithfully follow their counsel and guidance. I totally agree that we follow God and Christ to become like them. I guess this is where things become confusing for me. Can I really do "all I can to follow Christ"? If that's the requisite... I'm damned! What percentage of following Christ counts as good enough? When is my heart pure enough? If we say we have to work to become good enough then we automatically imply that there is some sort of minimum requirement we must meet. What is that minimum requirement? 50% obedience? 20? 80? These are honest questions we must ask if we believe we have to work to be good enough for God's Kingdom. Maybe we could discuss some scriptures that talk about these principles? Also, sorry for all the questions and pointed writing. It's just kinda my style. I really appreciate your responses and the open dialogue. I really enjoy it!
bOObOO Posted August 19, 2021 Posted August 19, 2021 20 minutes ago, Eph2,8 said: Well, I was hoping it would go without saying that I mean loyalty to Christ and His commands. Loyalty to God representing our faith and commitment to Him is used often in the Old Testament, the book of Hosea being a good example. We can know that we are being loyal to the correct principles/commands/Beings by reading the scriptures and seeing what God has said about those things! But yes I actually really do agree: faith does bring an assurance. Absolutely. I don't see how loyalty and assurance are contradictory, I think "faith" can include both of those things! Hebrews 6 has some really, really interesting stuff about faith being an assurance towards the end. It talks about the Abrahamic Covenant and how Abraham was given an assurance of eternal life through his faith. Oh absolutely! It all depends on what we are talking about. If I follow God's counsel, will I generally live a healthier, better, more fulfilled life? YES! Will I "profit" by keeping the word of wisdom? Yes! I think we agree up to this point, maybe even further than this point, it's just hard to tell sometimes when I am trying to read someone else's mind by the words they are using. 20 minutes ago, Eph2,8 said: But... can I "profit" Exaltation or Salvation through my deeds and service? No. Now am I wondering what you mean by saying No to this idea. Maybe you are thinking exclusively by your own merits? I agree you can't do it all on your own but I do believe God and Jesus consider your works when determining what rewards to give you. So we're back to the oath and covenant of the priesthood. You do this, you will get that. Every single blessing we get is based on obedience to the law on which each blessing is predicated. God promises and rewards based on our behavior. 20 minutes ago, Eph2,8 said: Here is a great quote from Elder Uchtdorf, "Even if we were to serve God with our whole souls, it is not enough, for we would still be 'unprofitable servants.' We cannot earn our way into heaven" (The Gift of Grace, April 2014). It all depends on what kind of profit you mean. Also interesting side note, Elder Uchtdorf used Mosiah 2:21 to mean what I have interpreted it as. I definitely think it can be used this way! And... does God not technically gain something He doesn't have from our exaltation? Joseph Smith in the King Follet Sermon taught that Exaltation and Eternity is like rungs on a ladder. When we are exalted, God will move to the next "rung", something He does not already have. Personally, I'm not sure where I stand with everything in the King Follet Sermon, but it is something fascinating to talk about. You do realize that ladder doesn't really exist, don't you. It's a metaphor. God is already the most supreme kind of being in existence and he is also totally perfect in every good way that kind of being can be... perfect in love, intelligence, wisdom, every good thing there is. There is no rung above him. He has everything and shares everything he has with others who are as perfect as he is, and he does his best to help others become as perfect as he is. 20 minutes ago, Eph2,8 said: I totally agree that we follow God and Christ to become like them. I guess this is where things become confusing for me. Can I really do "all I can to follow Christ"? Yes, you can do all you can do. Anything more than you can do is something you can not do, and God will help you, and anyone else, to increase their abilities to do more than they can do if that is at all possible. 20 minutes ago, Eph2,8 said: If that's the requisite... I'm damned! Nope, misunderstanding. You can do all you can do. 20 minutes ago, Eph2,8 said: What percentage of following Christ counts as good enough? When is my heart pure enough? If we say we have to work to become good enough then we automatically imply that there is some sort of minimum requirement we must meet. What is that minimum requirement? 50% obedience? 20? 80? These are honest questions we must ask if we believe we have to work to be good enough for God's Kingdom. Good questions worth pondering and praying with God about. I will let you wrestle with all of that to your heart's content. 20 minutes ago, Eph2,8 said: Maybe we could discuss some scriptures that talk about these principles? Also, sorry for all the questions and pointed writing. It's just kinda my style. I really appreciate your responses and the open dialogue. I really enjoy it! No problem. We likely will talk about these issues some more as time rolls on if I continue to participate on this board as I have been. I have no problem with your style of conversing. You do you and I'll do all I can do to try to understand you.
Eph2,8 Posted August 19, 2021 Posted August 19, 2021 Buckle in, this one might be long. 1 hour ago, bOObOO said: Now am I wondering what you mean by saying No to this idea. Maybe you are thinking exclusively by your own merits? I agree you can't do it all on your own but I do believe God and Jesus consider your works when determining what rewards to give you. So we're back to the oath and covenant of the priesthood. You do this, you will get that. Every single blessing we get is based on obedience to the law on which each blessing is predicated. God promises and rewards based on our behavior. Okay. So. If I earn every blessing - including eternal life - by obedience to a law, then I really have no need for Christ other than overcoming physical death. I can do everything else on my own. Question: what exact law do I have to obey (and even one infraction damns us, and one infraction makes us guilty of the entire law - James 2:10) to receive eternal life? Is it the temple covenants? If so, have you ever lusted? I have. Jesus taught that lusting is tantamount to adultery in our hearts. Did we not just break the law of chastity? How then can we be saved by a law that we broke? 2 Nephi 2:5 states "5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever." Here we see that by the law no flesh is justified (saved) In fact, it seems to imply that we learn good from evil by the law, and that the law cuts us off, rather than saves us. Paul also teaches this many times. Here's one: Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin." The law (God's Eternal moral law) is like a mirror. It shows us for who we truly are: sinners. It teaches us about our need for a Savior. Yes, it also shows us how we should live. But, we are not saved by it - meaning obedience. As far as "exclusively by your own merits", I obviously reject that. But I even reject some sort of split deal. That does not sound like "relying alone on the merits of Jesus." Here are two great quotes from Brad Wilcox. "Jesus doesn’t make up the difference. Jesus makes all the difference. Grace is not about filling gaps. It is about filling us.” "It's not about my part and His part. It's about my heart and His heart." (Jesus does all the "part") I think it would be important to add if you mean God rewards us solely on our behavior, or just in general. Either way, I have an honest question for you. Do we earn heaven? If you see heaven as a wage that Christ gives to those who work hard enough, aren't we earning it? 1 hour ago, bOObOO said: You do realize that ladder doesn't really exist, don't you. It's a metaphor. God is already the most supreme kind of being in existence and he is also totally perfect in every good way that kind of being can be... perfect in love, intelligence, wisdom, every good thing there is. There is no rung above him. He has everything and shares everything he has with others who are as perfect as he is, and he does his best to help others become as perfect as he is. Of course it's a metaphor, but the principle still remains the same. Joseph Smith taught that Elohim had a Father of His own, who had a Father of His own. This would imply a Being who at least outranks Elohim in His time as a Diety. I'm not saying Elohim will become more loving and more intelligent. But Joseph Smith taught that by us being exalted we will exalt Him. That His kingdom will grow as we form Kingdoms of our own and lay them at His feet. Sounds like He absolutely is gaining something from our exaltation lol. Here are two quotes from the King Follet Sermon: "when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation (rung on the ladder) and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children." "He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth" This implies that He had a Father God, who came before Him and was a more Supreme Being. 1 hour ago, bOObOO said: Yes, you can do all you can do. Anything more than you can do is something you can not do, and God will help you, and anyone else, to increase their abilities to do more than they can do if that is at all possible. Nope, misunderstanding. You can do all you can do. How so? Are you saying that if I sin or fall short then at that time it was not possible for me to do more? If that's the case, then there is no such thing as wasted potential. There is no such thing as falling short if it's impossible for us to do more at that time. It sounds like you're saying that "all I can do" is just me... living life? If I fall to temptation and get drunk one night... was there really nothing more I could have done? If I have an affair and cheat on my spouse... oh well, couldn't have done better? I disagree with your definition of that phrase. Did you do all you can do today? Could you not literally have done more? I absolutely agree that God can sustain us to do more than possible on our own... but I do not think that He does that so that we can be good enough for Heaven. Not saying you believe that, but I know some people do. 1 hour ago, bOObOO said: Good questions worth pondering and praying with God about. I will let you wrestle with all of that to your heart's content. Oh trust me hahahah I have wrestled with them and came away with a very scriptural answer. I asked them here in a Socratic manner, I was hoping you would take a jab at answering them for me.
bOObOO Posted August 19, 2021 Posted August 19, 2021 13 hours ago, Eph2,8 said: Buckle in, this one might be long. Okay. So. If I earn every blessing - including eternal life - by obedience to a law, then I really have no need for Christ other than overcoming physical death. I can do everything else on my own. No, the reason it works the way it works is only because of Christ. He paid he price for all of our sins, thus satisfying our original debt, and then he offered us a new contract on his own terms. We are to repent when we sin and do all we can do to follow his counsel and guidance. If we don't do that, then he is under no obligation to help us. We either do things his way or we pay the price for our own sins and even then there is no guarantee of any blessings from him, or from our Father. On your own you are going to mess up, committing sins on occasions if not constantly, and headed for big trouble. Enough from me for now. 1
JLHPROF Posted August 19, 2021 Posted August 19, 2021 20 hours ago, Eph2,8 said: Okay. So. If I earn every blessing - including eternal life - by obedience to a law, then I really have no need for Christ other than overcoming physical death. I can do everything else on my own. Except it's impossible to earn every blessing. As you point out even one sin keeps us out of God's presence. But Christ pays the price for those sins, allows us entrance, and then provides us with blessings based on our obedience to requisite laws. I don't know why this is so complicated. We can't be perfect to enter God's presence without Christ. Nobody debates that. We can't earn entrance to God's kingdom through our own perfection. But we can and do merit eternal blessings based on obedience. It's not an either/or. Both are absolutely scriptural. 1
CV75 Posted August 20, 2021 Posted August 20, 2021 (edited) Ooops -- wrong thread! Edited August 20, 2021 by CV75
Eph2,8 Posted August 21, 2021 Posted August 21, 2021 On 8/19/2021 at 4:34 PM, JLHPROF said: Except it's impossible to earn every blessing. As you point out even one sin keeps us out of God's presence. But Christ pays the price for those sins, allows us entrance, and then provides us with blessings based on our obedience to requisite laws. I don't know why this is so complicated. We can't be perfect to enter God's presence without Christ. Nobody debates that. We can't earn entrance to God's kingdom through our own perfection. But we can and do merit eternal blessings based on obedience. It's not an either/or. Both are absolutely scriptural. It's not complicated. I understand the concept you're saying. I just think that if we honestly ask ourselves hard questions about it, it falls short. For example, we cannot earn every blessing through obedience. So instead Christ fulfills the law, allows entrance and then... blesses us based on our obedience? I thought we couldn't earn them through obedience? But in the end we do? I also think it is absolutely fair to ask "how much obedience do we need for the celestial kingdom"? 20%,50%,80%? How much is "my part" and how much is "Christ's part"? Based on what I've read in the scriptures I just don't believe that salvation/exaltation/whatever comes from X% of myself, X% of Christ. In fact, that's usually rejected. Plus, I've been providing scriptures for us to discuss and have been hoping for that in reciprocal but. Anyways. It's been good talking! Fascinating conversations for sure. I respect what you have said and am grateful you took the time to discuss!
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